GRALISTAIR
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+1 exactly
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South Wales electrification
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+1 exactly
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A bottom contact system with top and both sides of the power rail(s) covered, as on DLR, might be allowed.
Nym
Established Member
Yes, but if you're doing a new system why not do 1500V OHL that requires less feeder stations, if it's a whole new system, why not make it a more optimal one, since it won't interwork with anything if it's not a standard that's already out anyway.
krus_aragon
Established Member
Possibly. Most of the DLR isn't at street level to be tripped over (or so I'm told).
HSTEd
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The national grid strength issues which lead to the apparent need for DC electrification in more rural areas (see COrnwall and the like) will probably be made irrelevant due to the improvements in the National Grid that will be neccesary to support the projected doubling in electrical consumption. (As natural gas is phased out to meet carbon dioxide emissions limits)
anthony263
Established Member
Sorry for bumping up this thread again but I did read in Fridays issue of the south wales echo that an annoucement about further electrification projects being given the go ahead was expected to be made by the UK government this week.
Batman
Member
I don't think the announcement will be made until the autumn statement in November, alongside all the other capital projects that Osbourne decides to give the go ahead though. South Wales electrification will be slightly different as it depends on how forthcoming the Welsh Government are with funding, but the UK government won't make a final decision till November at the earliest.
Markdvdman
Member
We may hear confirmation next week:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trification-projects-in-wales-91466-31387880/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trification-projects-in-wales-91466-31387880/
swt_passenger
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We definitely should.
As I've tried to explain in the other recent electrification thread a couple of times, next week's announcement, (that some news articles are reporting only as an electrification announcement), is supposed to be the full CP5 HLOS.
'By the end of July 2012' is the date laid down in the 2005 Railways Act standard timings for the DfT to publish its HLOS, and the current government have not changed that timetable, as it would require new legislation...
As I've tried to explain in the other recent electrification thread a couple of times, next week's announcement, (that some news articles are reporting only as an electrification announcement), is supposed to be the full CP5 HLOS.
'By the end of July 2012' is the date laid down in the 2005 Railways Act standard timings for the DfT to publish its HLOS, and the current government have not changed that timetable, as it would require new legislation...
Elsewhere it mentions publication of the HLOS on Monday or Tuesday next week. Tuesday 17th is apparently the deadline since Parliament then rises for the summer recess. It is rumoured that the HLOS statement will also confirm orders for IEP for the GWML (but not ECML), together with major statements on future electrification plans (South Wales and MML ?).
David
fgwrich
Established Member
It should be confirming the GWML IEPs on Monday - BBC South Today let that slip last night with some typical Paul Clifton HST Bashing...
tbtc
Veteran Member
It's typical Government behaviour though, they got to make two big positive announcements. Don't play all your trump cards at once.
Gareth Marston
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Can I be the first to congratulate you on getting your wires tbtc? though I'd always wait till its announced to be sure!
If Swansea is wired Bi mode IEP must be dead.
tbtc
Veteran Member
I don't want to count my chickens, but I think that this announcement has the potential to be good news all round - overdue investment in the Valleys, a real boost for Swansea, potentially the end of bi-mode (which most enthusiasts seem to dislike), investment in the MML, a really encouraging sign that the future is being planned out properly.
I was never a big fan of this Government (despite living in Mr Clegg's constituency...), I appreciate that these improvements won't happen overnight but this is probably the first time since privatisation that I've had faith in "the future".
(I reserve the right to heavily edit this post if Monday's announcement is only about spending hundreds of millions on a spur at Heathrow plus one pot of paint to be shared around the rest of the UK!
)swt_passenger
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Except for Worcester, Cheltenham, beyond Newbury, and various East Coast purposes such as routes beyond Edinburgh.
Swansea wiring has never been about removing bi-mode IEP from the plan, that didn't make sense from the day it was firrst discusssed.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I don't want to count my chickens, but I think that this announcement has the potential to be good news all round - overdue investment in the Valleys, a real boost for Swansea, potentially the end of bi-mode (which most enthusiasts seem to dislike), investment in the MML, a really encouraging sign that the future is being planned out properly.
I was never a big fan of this Government (despite living in Mr Clegg's constituency...), I appreciate that these improvements won't happen overnight but this is probably the first time since privatisation that I've had faith in "the future".
(I reserve the right to heavily edit this post if Monday's announcement is only about spending hundreds of millions on a spur at Heathrow plus one pot of paint to be shared around the rest of the UK!
Agreed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Trouble is there's no commercial justification without the sets needed for Swansea the production run issues around small quantity's will make them even more expensive. We could see some attempt to deploy them elsewhere in UK (plenty of off WCML candidates) but this would run counter to the free hand in rolling stock selection that been promised the WCML franchise.
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WatcherZero
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However Hitachi are the ones deciding the fleet balance to meet the requested diagrams. While ordering fewer diesel engined would increase the cost of the diesel bi-modes per unit if they are replaced with order for more electrics it could force the price down overall.
anthony263
Established Member
If some of the rumours doing the rounds and some articles in the local press are to be believed there could be a possibility of the wires actually reaching Cheltenham leaving Just London - Worcester/Hereford & the semi fast services to Taunton & Exeter as the only GW routes to use the bi-mode IEP.
Surely the rolling stock solution is MML 222s get a panto car and provide the bi-mode solution for Worcester, Exeter / Taunton / Weston and possibly Cheltenham. IEP is electric only for Bristol, Swansea and ECML. Mk4 + cl 91 to MML and therefore no bi-mode IEP. Cl 222s might also be solution for beyond the wires on ECML.
HSTEd
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Bi-mode IEP is safe.
If the Swansea production run of five sets (since the sixth set will have to be bi-mode for camarthan) is eliminated they will just eliminate the five HST sets that have to be retained for the Plymouth terminators.
Only the most naive person would say otherwise.
As for electrics the rental costs are estimated at only £2,000 per month per vehicle less than the bi-modes, if those figures are accurate really they should order an entirely bi-mode fleet, as they claim that energy use by the two types will be the same under electric power.
If the Swansea production run of five sets (since the sixth set will have to be bi-mode for camarthan) is eliminated they will just eliminate the five HST sets that have to be retained for the Plymouth terminators.
Only the most naive person would say otherwise.
As for electrics the rental costs are estimated at only £2,000 per month per vehicle less than the bi-modes, if those figures are accurate really they should order an entirely bi-mode fleet, as they claim that energy use by the two types will be the same under electric power.
Should have added that all 220 / 221 would get panto car to take advantage of the wires that will cover a large proportion of the XC routes. HSTs continue on on prime Devon and Corwall services until the wiring teams finish everything else - once all the wiring now being talked of has been done, it will seem like a little add-on for Bristol / Newbury to Plymouth to finally put the greatest train to rest.
With theses modern factory wiring trains I'm sure that any government will understand that wiring is good investment for our nation's infrastructure.
With theses modern factory wiring trains I'm sure that any government will understand that wiring is good investment for our nation's infrastructure.
D365
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Amen. Although it will reduce the proportion of GW bi-mode units required, diesel power is necessary for those routes listed (as well as several ECML services around York, I believe). The EC batch is to initially replace HSTs, as well as taking over the current diesel-powered diagrams which run fully under-the-wire. This is done due to insufficient electric trains (31 IC225s, of which 28 can be in use at any one time). A further IEP batch will likely replace the IC225 sets in the future.
I don't understand why GC (and FHT for that matter) haven't thought about adding a few extra 5-coach, bi-mode units to the ECML, rather than ordering the supposed China-sourced Polaris units. Surely it would be cheaper, plus it would make maintenance and breakdowns easier to deal with. But what could be done with the 180s?
tbtc
Veteran Member
I saw it mentioned on another thread that the new GWML franchise requires one train a day between London and Carmarthen
Yes, should be part of cl222 + panto rather than bi-mode IEP, which should be dead.
There are 3 currently unwired ECML desinations in England; Hull, Lincoln and Harrogate. Hull seems to be a strong candidate for inclusion in the TP North electrification and Harrogate makes a strong case as a commuter line although nothing specific has been announced. If Harrogate were wired, and if Lincoln were served by the EMT franchise (should it retain some 222s) then the EC franchise would not require bimodes for its English routes.
Thinking on Harrogate could be transferred to EMT as an extension of a Leeds service.
As far as I know neither GC nor FHT are currently in the market for new stock. That said FHT may soon need electric stock!
Erniescooper
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It would have to be a 222 and pan because west of Swansea is'nt be guage cleared for the 26m long IEP.
The Great Western franchise consultation says that there will be one IEP service per day to Carmathen.
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