First West Coast New Stock

SkinnyDave · 15 Aug 2012

Getting a tad busy in the other thread regarding First winning bid.

What's everyone's thoughts on the 11 6 car electric trains for Birmingham to Glasgow services? Must be baby Pendos surely
Will they be used on Edinburgh diagrams as well I wonder.
Will XC inherit some of the Voyagers?

RailUK Forums

ainsworth74 · 15 Aug 2012

My money is on a new build of 390s I would like to think that at least some of the 221s would go to XC but with all the new services that FWC are supposed to be running I suspect that not many if any will be transferred.

Can someone tell me how many 221s are needed to run the Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh services?

Wath Yard · 15 Aug 2012

Voyagers are not heading to XC. They are staying on the WCML. The new units are additions, not replacements.

ainsworth74 · 15 Aug 2012

As I suspected

tbtc · 15 Aug 2012

Sounds like they'll have to be 390s (what else is 125mph and tilting), but of course they can't just specify 390s.

The question that interests me is whether more will be ordered for Manchester - Glasgow/ Edinburgh to replace the 350s in a few years time.

And, yeah, sounds like the Voyagers get kept on West Coast to provide the Shrewsbury service and additional Bangor ones.

willas00 · 15 Aug 2012

Surly baby 390s ordered to there livery and interior plan would make more sense any way.

I suspect most of the crews trained on the Voyagers running from Birmingham to Scotland are also pendolino trained? Therefore saving money in the long run?

asylumxl · 15 Aug 2012

Not like there aren't other tilting trains. Doesn't necessarily have to be off the shelf.

Siemens? Bombardier? CSRE? CAF?

SkinnyDave · 15 Aug 2012

Alstom mentioned their new shorter Pendolino for Regional work in Rail mag couple of weeks ago..
It would make sense for Scotland - Manc services to have these as well going forward and maybe bolted onto this WC order
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asylumxl said:
Not like there aren't other tilting trains. Doesn't necessarily have to be off the shelf.

Siemens? Bombardier? CSRE? CAF?

True but would it not be easier with Alstom maintenance?

asylumxl · 15 Aug 2012

SkinnyDave said:
True but would it not be easier with Alstom maintenance?

Since when have the British railways participated in joined up thinking?

tbtc · 15 Aug 2012

asylumxl said:
Not like there aren't other tilting trains. Doesn't necessarily have to be off the shelf.

Siemens? Bombardier? CSRE? CAF?

A small build of a brand new train type would be possible. But expensive and non-standard. I presume that the tender will be written in a way to ensure that it'd have to be a 390.

asylumxl · 15 Aug 2012

tbtc said:
A small build of a brand new train type would be possible. But expensive and non-standard. I presume that the tender will be written in a way to ensure that it'd have to be a 390.

In all seriousness, the 390 is an old design now and like others have commented the window has now closed for further orders of that design.

So any new stock, even if a Pendolino from Alstom, will be non standard anyway.

The obvious solution is simply to stipulate in the tender that it must be compatible with 390s (or at very minimum compatible in emergencies, e.g. as the Voyagers are).

DXMachina · 15 Aug 2012

Highly amusing that shortly after the signing of contracts to provide the new UK-Standard 125mph IEP EMU, a TOC announces its intentions to commission something else, presumably with DfT backing.

ainsworth74 · 15 Aug 2012

Well seeing as IEP can't meet the requirements that an EMU operating on the WCML demands, that's hardly surprising.

Temple Meads · 15 Aug 2012

Seeing as first made HST's (one of the airiest trains ever) feel nastily claustrophobic, you have to wonder what they'll do to a Pendolino!

WatcherZero · 15 Aug 2012

Wonder when they will find the time for the existing 390 refurbs. First VP basically confirmed tonight their doing a complete seating replacement, taking out the existing seating and putting in higher density seating with less leg room and more luggage space. Also looks like shops are going to be replaced by a trolley service 'at seat catering'.

One train per day will be extended from Preston to Blackpool from Dec 2013 (Voyager) this will become five electric trains per day from Dec 2016 (didnt say whether in 2016 they would be via mainline or from Bolton but Bolton makes most sense). I would bet on a mini pendo occasionally strengthened to a 9 car Pendolino, 11 car Pendolino would be too long for Man Pic through platforms.

BananaRepublic · 15 Aug 2012

DXMachina said:
Highly amusing that shortly after the signing of contracts to provide the new UK-Standard 125mph IEP EMU, a TOC announces its intentions to commission something else, presumably with DfT backing.

The IEP set out to specify an inter-city train for all routes except the WCML, which has its own specific set of requirements, notably tilt.
The only IEP specified trains expected to be used on the WCML, are commuter configured ones for the southern WCML services from Northampton and MK to London.

HSTEd · 16 Aug 2012

I think this purchase of new tilting electrics would seem to indicate that HS2 is already dead or soon will be.

If HS2 was going to move forward at a reasonable pace it would be cheaper to retain the Voyagers until such time as we are swimming in tilting electrics after the Birmingham and Manchester trains are cut back to hourly in the face of 4tph 400m double decks.

ainsworth74 · 16 Aug 2012

Though I have to say would it be possible to introduce the new services without a new build of tilting stock? If the answer is no then what's the choice? Drop any new services until HS2 arrives?

The Ham · 16 Aug 2012

asylumxl said:
In all seriousness, the 390 is an old design now and like others have commented the window has now closed for further orders of that design.

So any new stock, even if a Pendolino from Alstom, will be non standard anyway.

The obvious solution is simply to stipulate in the tender that it must be compatible with 390s (or at very minimum compatible in emergencies, e.g. as the Voyagers are).

I would have thought that a new Pendolino would have more in comman (at least in terms of mainternance) than anything else that was compatible with 390s.

A few questions this thread & the anouncement has raised, are there any other lines that would benefit from tiling trains (Waterloo to Exeter or Corwall to suggest a few)? As I would have thought that by the time of HS2 much more of the network would be electrified enabiling cascading of surplass trains.

Also, it is possible that the 390s are used on the HS2 pahse 1 to then carry on north until phase 2 is built and/or is there likely to be a need for fast services on the WCML after HS2 (meaning less spare stock)?

Finally, do we think that at least some of the 15min jorney time savings in the First anouncment could be from running +125mph over any part of the WCML?

bronzeonion · 16 Aug 2012

Someone said in the other thread about it maybe being 395s? I would like to see that happen but baby Pendolinos sounds more realistic unfortunately

Zoe · 16 Aug 2012

The Ham said:
Also, it is possible that the 390s are used on the HS2 pahse 1 to then carry on north until phase 2 is built and/or is there likely to be a need for fast services on the WCML after HS2 (meaning less spare stock)?

That would significantly reduce capacity on HS2 though with the 390s only able to run at a maximum of 140 mph.

NSEFAN · 16 Aug 2012

HSTEd said:
I think this purchase of new tilting electrics would seem to indicate that HS2 is already dead or soon will be.

If HS2 was going to move forward at a reasonable pace it would be cheaper to retain the Voyagers until such time as we are swimming in tilting electrics after the Birmingham and Manchester trains are cut back to hourly in the face of 4tph 400m double decks.

HS2 is a long way off yet (20 years at least). Given First says they want to run extra services, it makes sense to source a new fleet of trains. The idea is (presumably) that the new EMUs will replace "Voyagers under the wires", with said Voyagers going into other services which First has said they wish to trial.

When HS2 finally comes around, these trains can be cascaded to other routes. We currently have a shortage of stock overall, so I would be suprised if the Pendolinos / Voyagers couldn't find a new home somewhere. Most stock nowadays seems to be built with a lifetime of around 30 years, but we all know that the better designs can last for much longer than that!

Yew · 16 Aug 2012

My guess would be baby pendos, or an EMU voyager. Obviously the pendo is most likely, but wit E-voyagers in the works, Bombardier might have designed an EMU variant as part of the design process.

I think a well specified voyager could actually be better than baby pendos, however less likely to happen

MidnightFlyer · 16 Aug 2012

willas00 said:
Surly baby 390s ordered to there livery and interior plan would make more sense any way.

I suspect most of the crews trained on the Voyagers running from Birmingham to Scotland are also pendolino trained? Therefore saving money in the long run?

Correct, five depots cover New St-Scotland trains AFAIK: Polmadie, Edinburgh (both to Preston only), Preston (all of the route), Wolves (to Preston only), and Euston (I think; as Wolves coverage-wise). All five depots sign both 221s and 390s.

The Engineer · 16 Aug 2012

I can confirm that when Alstom tendered for new 11-car Pendolinos and extra cars, one option in that tender was for short-formation Pendos for the Birmingham to Scotland trains. Far from being outdated, the latest Pendos just delivered have had technical upgrades where required to remove obsolescence and improve reliability. In fact, some upgrades are being rolled out to the rest of the fleet to improve their reliability.

I agree that short-formation Pendos are the obvious choice for commonality of stock, and maintainer, etc. But just lately, common sense has been in short supply on our railways due to government interference!!

We shall see what prevails this time.......

sprinterguy · 16 Aug 2012

HSTEd said:
I think this purchase of new tilting electrics would seem to indicate that HS2 is already dead or soon will be.

If HS2 was going to move forward at a reasonable pace it would be cheaper to retain the Voyagers until such time as we are swimming in tilting electrics after the Birmingham and Manchester trains are cut back to hourly in the face of 4tph 400m double decks.

Stock procurement for the West Coast at present is in no way related to the fortunes of HS2 if First West Coast wish to introduce new services and enhanced capacity. As other posters have also said, if First waited until the opening of even just the first stage of HS2 caused the release of some WCML Classic stock then there wouldnt actually be any capacity enhancements or new services introduced at any point in the life of the franchise. The WCML franchise is due to end in 2026, the very earliest date that HS2 Phase 1 is expected to open.

And while I expect a reasonable number of Pendolinos to be freed up by the opening of HS2 I do not expect us to be swimming in tilting electrics, as while services will be less frequent, journey times will probably be longer requiring a greater number of diagrams than an hourly service at present would need, and Pendos could be redeployed on shorter distance regional and semi-fast services on the WCML such as LMs longer distance services.
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bronzeonion said:
Someone said in the other thread about it maybe being 395s? I would like to see that happen but baby Pendolinos sounds more realistic unfortunately

It wont be 395s, they dont tilt and hence would be unable to make use of the 125mph capability of the WCML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Ham said:
Finally, do we think that at least some of the 15min jorney time savings in the First anouncment could be from running +125mph over any part of the WCML?

Probably not. It is more likely to be the effect of removing station calls in the North West from the Glasgow services, principally Wigan and Warrington in return for them receiving an additional hourly Euston Preston service.

172212 · 16 Aug 2012

I was always under the impression that First were going to keep the stock that Virgin had, with the inclusion of the 11 baby pendos

asylumxl · 16 Aug 2012

I reckon 395s could keep time on the WCML, assuming the distances between the stops were not too long. Their superior acceleration could well make up for the difference in top speed. But it is unlikely they'd be used anyway. JUst saying.

DarloRich · 16 Aug 2012

The Engineer said:
I can confirm that when Alstom tendered for new 11-car Pendolinos and extra cars, one option in that tender was for short-formation Pendos for the Birmingham to Scotland trains. Far from being outdated, the latest Pendos just delivered have had technical upgrades where required to remove obsolescence and improve reliability. In fact, some upgrades are being rolled out to the rest of the fleet to improve their reliability.

I agree that short-formation Pendos are the obvious choice for commonality of stock, and maintainer, etc. But just lately, common sense has been in short supply on our railways due to government interference!!

We shall see what prevails this time.......

I had assumed that a contract variation would suffice to obtain the "baby" pendos. From what you say it appears the supply contract for the 11 car pendos allowed for this.

it may not,therefore, be neccessary to tender for the new vehicles.

ainsworth74 · 16 Aug 2012

172212 said:
I was always under the impression that First were going to keep the stock that Virgin had, with the inclusion of the 11 baby pendos

This is correct. What has made you doubt this?

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