First win Intercity West Coast franchise

All Line Rover · 16 Aug 2012

Yorkie's suspicions about increasing the non-London fares were well founded. According to this article by the Independent, part of First's commitment to cut Anytime fares by an average of 15% includes reducing the Birmingham to Edinburgh SOS from £116 to £99.

That may seem good at first, but not when you take into account the fact that that fare is priced by CrossCountry, and Virgin Trains currently have a VT Only Off-Peak Return at £117.40 that is valid on ANY TRAIN.

Evidently, First will scrap the VT/First Only fare, leaving the only remaining Off-Peak return with a 2V restriction. I'm not sure how CrossCountry will react to that, nor how this decision will benefit First with regard to ORCATS. (After all, it the West Coast franchise benefits so much from the Any Permitted Anytime fare, why did Virgin bother introducing a VT Only Off-Peak fare at half the price?)

RailUK Forums

YorkshireBear · 16 Aug 2012

howittpie said:
From a personal view am disappointed Virgin have lost the franchise but please god not a trolley service they do not work and have yet to meet many passengers who prefer them to a buffet.

Well would you like meet all my friends?

They do work as has been said in this thread before, if people want food now they don't want to get up and battle down 3 carriges (falling over as we travel over points) to buy a hot coffee and then spill it on the way back up. People on their own do not want to leave their stuff (especially in the age of laptops etc). They want an at seat service of a trolley, 95% of people who i come across who are not enthusiasts prefer a good trolley to a buffet type shop.

On this forum the prevailing opinion is that a buffet is better im afraid joe public do not agree. Admittedly during overcrowding it has serious fall backs. But who battles through a crowded train to a buffet? very few so actually it makes very little difference.

The best way to operate a trolley is to have someone else also with the trolley who can take hot foods orders back to mini kitchen type area and prepare things. Note this was suggested to me by friends who travel on trains regularly.

F Great Eastern · 16 Aug 2012

First have said that they are not getting rid of the shops or the buffets, but it seems people are still believing the likes of Bob Crow despite nearly everything he has said in the days leading up to the announcement are incorrect, the problem is it's bad for the railways when people like Bob come out with such nonsense as it makes them think badly of something or put them off using the railways simply based on hearsay despite the fact it may not be true. I don't know why people keep going on about trolleys, some people seem to think that Bob Crow is a friend of the railway passenger, he is nothing of the sort, he is just there for the members and nothing else but general people seem to think he is standing up for their rights when he is doing nothing of the sort, the only people he stands up for is his members that is the job of union leaders but some people doesn't seem to get that.

Saying that First will have to do a lot of marketing to give themselves a better image when they start, but as has been said earlier in this thread, so many people I read comments from and see on TV come out with the comments like, Virgin is an established reliable global brand and First they have not heard of or view as American no doubt because of Tim O'Toole, despite the fact First have far more public transport experience than VIrgin do and also is far more wide ranging, Virgin are very selective in what they bid for and franchises like FGW and FCC are far harder to run than West Coast, as they haven't had the final and full benefits in the investment in rolling stock or infrastructure, which is holding FCC and FGW back.

But most people see FGW and FCC as overcrowded and this is because First are a useless company, but what they don't know is that whoever was running such companies would also have the same problems, but those who don't know how the industry works constantly blame the operators even for things which is not under their control.

DarloRich · 16 Aug 2012

howittpie said:
After ploughing through all the pages I was travelling on Virgin yesterday!. The franchise was a hot topic of conversation. The passengers around me were not impressed at all with Virgin looseing the franchise but seemed even less so with First winnig it two comment came to light that really hits home how bad in places First group image is they can't even run buses properly we call them worst bus that was lady from Manchester while a guy sat opposite me said had used Great Western alot and his office had dubbed the service last worst western.

From a personal view am disappointed Virgin have lost the franchise but please god not a trolley service they do not work and have yet to meet many passengers who prefer them to a buffet. From my own experience of East Midlands Trains Lon-Nott on a weekend where there iis 1 trolley if you coaches A or B in standard you are lucky if you see the trolley before Leicester and I much prefer to decide when I want refreshments not the trolley staff. Also soft drinks and beer are always warm and coffee is only ever seems to be luke warm from trolleys.

The problem is this:

1) TOC does a survey on catering
2) Questions asked along the lines of do you want to walk to the buffet or have at seat dining
3) Joe Public equates at seat dining to waitress service therefore says "yes at seat dining please"
4) TOC equates at seat dining to a manky trolley and rubs their hands together with glee
5) TOC replaces buffet with trolley thus saving money and removing crew
6) Passengers get the at seat dining experience they asked for but not they at seat dining experience they expected!
7) Any complaints are addressed by the use of the survey results at points 1 &2!

Badger · 16 Aug 2012

I have not used First trains, so won't comment on that, but out of all of the operators I have used Virgin have been the best. Only one bad journey with them and that was a roof pouring like a waterfall the other day (not sure what happened there) but that's out of hundreds of journeys. I will be sad to see them go although everyone else seems to hate them, personal choice I suppose, as I love the interior, the chairs, etc; the toilet stench is horrible but it's the same on an XC Voyager or 170 and doesn't seem to be something they can do anything about.

Are all of their good qualities solely down to Virgin? Probably not. Will another operator be able to do better/as good a job? Probably. But I question whether the effort, cost and disruption of switching operators and liveries is really worth it.

Brand is important and Virgin have a good brand (so much so that everyone seems to think XC are also virgin...) I know it is petty at this point but First have a horrible livery. I hope they do something nice with the Pendelinos and S-Voyagers.

Trolley services do not work. Just more clutter to a train (blocking doors, etc). The Virgin shop is great and a brilliant addition to the train. Perhaps they could franchise it out with a Starbucks or something to recoup some money (I'd actually enjoy a Starbucks on a train tbh) something like a buffet car again.

Still, interested in the change, and hope First do a good job of it. I don't really care what changes so long as the routes I and family use stay on-par.

tbtc · 16 Aug 2012

YorkshireBear said:
who battles through a crowded train to a buffet? very few so actually it makes very little difference

Good point.

Badger said:
I question whether the effort, cost and disruption of switching operators and liveries is really worth it

In the context of all these millions of pounds splashing around the franchise, the cost of changing the paint/vinly on around eighty trains and a few stations is pretty tiny, especially when you consider that paint jobs etc only last for a finite period and things would require repainting before long even if Virgin won.

Stats · 16 Aug 2012

All Line Rover said:
Yorkie's suspicions about increasing the non-London fares were well founded. According to this article by the Independent, part of First's commitment to cut Anytime fares by an average of 15% includes reducing the Birmingham to Edinburgh SOS from £116 to £99.

All the article has done is taken two routes over which Virgin operate and cut 15% off the existing fares. It would be their own calculation to show as an example what 15% looks like. I wouldn't read too much into it.

HH · 16 Aug 2012

tbtc said:
In the context of all these millions of pounds splashing around the franchise, the cost of changing the paint/vinly on around eighty trains and a few stations is pretty tiny, especially when you consider that paint jobs etc only last for a finite period and things would require repainting before long even if Virgin won.

In the context of this Franchise (full repairing leases) the £22m they are promising to spend on stations is a pittance. Crewe is (over)due a new roof, and last I looked that was estimated to cost north of £10m. £22m looks very close to "do nothing" to me. I know at least one other bidder was going to spend a lot more.

Wath Yard · 16 Aug 2012

F Great Eastern said:
First have said that they are not getting rid of the shops or the buffets, but it seems people are still believing the likes of Bob Crow despite nearly everything he has said in the days leading up to the announcement are incorrect, the problem is it's bad for the railways when people like Bob come out with such nonsense as it makes them think badly of something or put them off using the railways simply based on hearsay despite the fact it may not be true. I don't know why people keep going on about trolleys, some people seem to think that Bob Crow is a friend of the railway passenger, he is nothing of the sort, he is just there for the members and nothing else but general people seem to think he is standing up for their rights when he is doing nothing of the sort, the only people he stands up for is his members that is the job of union leaders but some people doesn't seem to get that.

Saying that First will have to do a lot of marketing to give themselves a better image when they start, but as has been said earlier in this thread, so many people I read comments from and see on TV come out with the comments like, Virgin is an established reliable global brand and First they have not heard of or view as American no doubt because of Tim O'Toole, despite the fact First have far more public transport experience than VIrgin do and also is far more wide ranging, Virgin are very selective in what they bid for and franchises like FGW and FCC are far harder to run than West Coast, as they haven't had the final and full benefits in the investment in rolling stock or infrastructure, which is holding FCC and FGW back.

But most people see FGW and FCC as overcrowded and this is because First are a useless company, but what they don't know is that whoever was running such companies would also have the same problems, but those who don't know how the industry works constantly blame the operators even for things which is not under their control.

I agree with just about every word of that. Yesterday, after the announcement, the media were still using quotes from the RMT from several days earlier regarding job losses which were based on pure speculation that was apparently incorrect.

Many people also state that Virgin is the best service they travel on. Except for enthusiasts most people only travel on a small number of services. Therefore, if they are travelling from Blackburn - Euston with a Pacer from Blackburn - Preston and a Pendolino from Preston - Euston it would be astounding if they didn't prefer the InterCity train. If I was catching a bus to town for a NatEx coach to a town 100 miles away my expectation would be that the coach would be far more pleasant than the bus.

As for passengers blaming TOCs for things outside their control, one of the things Virgin have done very well is highlight the good aspects of the WCML service and claim all credit, e.g. they even refer to VHF as Virgin High Frequency rather than Very High Frequency and imply the increase in frequency is all down to them, when it is not. They are also very good at blaming others for the poor parts of the service.

jcevans · 16 Aug 2012

Is there a potential for First to brand their sleeper service under the "First West Coast" livery following yesterdays news?

HH · 16 Aug 2012

LNW-GW Joint said:
My impression is that Birmingham/Manchester/Preston/Liverpool/Chester are fairly evenly loaded both ways all day. North of Preston it's very peaky with big flows one way and light the other, switching round during the day. Edinburgh and Glasgow both have very heavy weekend traffic, for instance, but quite light midweek.

Glasgow is a huge growth area on the WCML. It may not be noticeable yet, but growth has been significant the last few years and it is expected to continue. The reason is that air cannot cope with demand - that's partly due to journey growth, and partly due to airlines replacing internal flights with international. Midweek is always an issue on leaisure travel routes, but those weekend services will soon enough be creaking at the seams unless additional capacity is added.

Lampshade · 16 Aug 2012

DarloRich said:
The problem is this:

1) TOC does a survey on catering
2) Questions asked along the lines of do you want to walk to the buffet or have at seat dining
3) Joe Public equates at seat dining to waitress service therefore says "yes at seat dining please"
4) TOC equates at seat dining to a manky trolley and rubs their hands together with glee
5) TOC replaces buffet with trolley thus saving money and removing crew
6) Passengers get the at seat dining experience they asked for but not they at seat dining experience they expected!
7) Any complaints are addressed by the use of the survey results at points 1 &2!

Exactly what XC did.

WillPS · 16 Aug 2012

PR1Berske said:
Steve Bell has his say

Thanks. My feelings exactly.

ainsworth74 · 16 Aug 2012

jcevans said:
Is there a potential for First to brand their sleeper service under the "First West Coast" livery following yesterdays news?

Why would they? They'll still be operated by ScotRail so what advantage would there be had by changing the name/livery? Further it's probably only going to be a few years until the Scottish Sleepers are in a separate specialist franchise.

WestCoast · 16 Aug 2012

YorkshireBear said:
On this forum the prevailing opinion is that a buffet is better im afraid joe public do not agree. Admittedly during overcrowding it has serious fall backs. But who battles through a crowded train to a buffet? very few so actually it makes very little difference.

You'd be surprised at what I've seen. I am regular user of services on West Coast (you might be able to tell from the username

) and I see many Standard Class passengers heading to the 'shop' on the Voyagers/Pendolinos when it's busy. I have even seen queues forming on peak services!

Turning to a full trolley does normally mean a downgrade in the catering offerings, plus it isn't nearly as dependable as a buffet. If the train isn't crowded, then popping the shop/buffet is an opportunity to stretch your legs on a long journey.

I can't think of one 'premium InterCity' service outside the UK that does not have a buffet and/or restaurant. Admittedly, the average journey time for passengers on WC is relatively short (about 2 hours?), which must lower the demand for onboard catering anyway.

flymo · 16 Aug 2012

Regarding the short Pendolinos has any mentioned Mindolinos so far? If not, here it is. (term was coined a while ago though....

)

DarloRich · 16 Aug 2012

Lampshade said:
Exactly what XC did.

surely not!

I am sure Virgin could have spun it to appear that it was the best thing to have happened in railway history. First will be portrayed as service slashing bast*rds

table38 · 16 Aug 2012

emoaconr said:
And also remember that TransPennine Express is 45% owned by Keolis, SNCF in disguise.

So if Virgin don't bid for East Coast, could it be First East Coast Keolis ?

47421 · 16 Aug 2012

has the bearded tax exile published info on his bid yet? what new / additional services would he have run?

anyone think he will actually challenge the decision in court? I bet he won't - good money after bad and anyway presumably bringing a court action would need consent of the other JV partner and Stagecoach seem to have taken the decision much more calmly

stanley T · 16 Aug 2012

Let's just hope that FGW is the model, not FCC.

For those of you hoping for a unified railway again, instead of a mess of franchises, you wish is near to fulfillment .... let's call it First British Rail.

With both Virgin trains and XC, the Bearded One would have been shrewd enough to know that others would outbid him... and he has probably had enough of losing money playing with trains (and Souter would have restrained a high bid). The airline cannot continue to subsidise everything else he does for ever.

Whistler40145 · 16 Aug 2012

Stupid question, why isn't the level of catering facilities laid down as part of the franchise requirement?

hairyhandedfool · 16 Aug 2012

cle said:
Could Bolton - London passengers even fill a 153? Aren't we better off encouraging them to use Wigan?....

First are not concerned with Bolton-London passengers, but Bolton-Manchester passengers, remember that First Transpennine Express (in case you missed it that is a First Group franchise) are having the Manchester-Scotland services re-routed via Eccles and Wigan from the end of next year, which many have said will mean a loss in revenue. First are clearly attempting to get that revenue back by a different TOC.

Mutant Lemming said:
Will the additional Blackpool/Preston/Bolton trains be one service ?

(say like using a voyager on the Euston-Crewe-Manchester service and then extending it to Blackpool via Bolton)

I rather suspect the Bolton trains will be an extension of one of the three (per hour) London-Manchester services, rather than a whole new train, and the Blackpool service is noted in this thread as potentially being one service initially and only five trains a day by 2016!

I would also expect the Shrewsbury service to be an extension of a London-Wolverhampton service.

All Line Rover said:
....(After all, it the West Coast franchise benefits so much from the Any Permitted Anytime fare, why did Virgin bother introducing a VT Only Off-Peak fare at half the price?)

'Any Permitted' fares are split through ORCATS, TOC specific fares go to the the TOC named (minus commission of course). Virgin might get 60% of a £100 'Any Permitted' fare, but would get around 90% of a £75 'VT only' fare (£67.50>£60). However, First Transpennine Express may also get a share of the 'Any Permitted' fare and if that share was to be 10%, First would be better off not having the TOC specific fare (£67.50<£60+£10).

Wath Yard · 16 Aug 2012

stanley T said:
With both Virgin trains and XC, the Bearded One would have been shrewd enough to know that others would outbid him... and he has probably had enough of losing money playing with trains (and Souter would have restrained a high bid). The airline cannot continue to subsidise everything else he does for ever.

VRG haven't lost any money playing with trains, in fact they have made a significant amount due to their franchises being renegotiated. Both their franchises required subsidy and that money came from the DfT not VRG.

BananaRepublic · 16 Aug 2012

stanley T said:
....The airline cannot continue to subsidise everything else he does for ever.

Which airline?
He only owns half of Virgin Atlantic (which has been available for a take-over for some time) and owns one quarter of Virgin America and Virgin Australia (previously known as Virgin Blue).

ChiefPlanner · 16 Aug 2012

). The airline cannot continue to subsidise everything else he does for ever.[/QUOTE]

According to todays Guardian , the airline lost around £80m last year

(I think)

williamn · 16 Aug 2012

yes the airline loses money while the train business made considerable sums.

mallard · 16 Aug 2012

flymo said:
Regarding the short Pendolinos has any mentioned Mindolinos so far? If not, here it is. (term was coined a while ago though....)

Well, I called them "Babylinos" in a text to a friend yesterday...

Also, I found a couple of pictures of what First's livery might look like on a Pendo:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/1262700620/gallery_6899_468_48867.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/1oq7wn.jpg

(Neither picture is mine, found both on Google)

Also, am I right in thinking that once First repaint the WC fleet, the only trains still in their original liveries will be Desiros (SWT/TPE/ScotRail), 172s, 379s and 395s?

captainbigun · 16 Aug 2012

I understand Bambilino is the assigned term.

Zoe · 16 Aug 2012

mallard said:
Also, am I right in thinking that once First repaint the WC fleet, the only trains still in their original liveries will be Desiros (SWT/TPE/ScotRail), 172s, 379s and 395s?

The later Chiltern 168s? I believe the earlier 168s had a slightly different livery.

Lampshade · 16 Aug 2012

If FWC's livery will be anything like Hull Trains' livery then excellent

First win Intercity West Coast franchise

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