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WSR late arriving at Taunton?
- Thread starter Tiny Tim
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Teaboy1
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Interesting debate folks but I have to agree that it must not lead to WSR being out-of-pocket if the anticipated passenger numbers fail to meet expectations. If it aint broke .. dont mend it !!
I watch Tangmere arrive at Bishops about 50 mins early and it waited near water tank for 30 mins at least before the GWR 8F coupled on.
On a slightly unrelated point, what is that new road to nowhere going to do to the NR connection ? Google maps call it Great Western Way and it peters-out near the static caravan park ... nothing happening to the tracks of WSR or lined up is there? Dont know what date photos I am looking at and the layout may well have changed by now.
I watch Tangmere arrive at Bishops about 50 mins early and it waited near water tank for 30 mins at least before the GWR 8F coupled on.
On a slightly unrelated point, what is that new road to nowhere going to do to the NR connection ? Google maps call it Great Western Way and it peters-out near the static caravan park ... nothing happening to the tracks of WSR or lined up is there? Dont know what date photos I am looking at and the layout may well have changed by now.
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Indeed. The WSR will not risk financial failure over the desire to complete the link. That was one of the big changes to its long term aims when the WSR nearly closed in the early 1980s. Never overstretch and build gradually as and when finances allow.
I think the "delay" at Bishops Lydeard was due to the special arriving early. With other trains running, the incoming special's path couldn't be changed. Early or late incoming/outgoing trains can create big problems for the WSR - one reason we normally no longer see mainline excursions during special events. Some of us WSR people believe the reinstatement of the crossing loops at Kentsford and Leigh are key to the successful running of trains to/from the main network.
The "road to nowhere" is a prelude to a possible future by-pass of Norton Fitzwarren which according to some plans will parallel the railway as far as Norton Bridge, I understand. But none of this (currently) affects the railway - no-one dare to plan to encroach on the railway after an investment of nearly £1M by WSR, NR, County Council some years ago in the improved Norton Fitzwarren Junction, and a recent six-figure investment by WSR and NR in the new Barnstaple Junction (the one on the current WSR/NR boundary)
Hope that helps a tad.
Steve
www.wsr.org.uk
As a West Somerset Railway shareholder I would certainly like to see regular through trains to Taunton and perhaps beyond.
As many others post this unfortunatly seems unlikely in the near term due to the costs.
Much is made of the large number of Butlins customers who at present either drive or take the bus.
Unfortunatly, Minehead station though fairly near the holiday camp, is not near enough for most customers, and is definatly too far to walk with heavy luggage or small children.
Bus transport from Minehead station to butlins is certainly possible, but innvolves another change with risk of delay or c*ck ups.
Some years ago, I believe that there was a serious proposal to build a new station on the WSR to serve Butlins.
Though not exactly a trivial undertaking, it looks entirely doable.
It would require a loop from the existing line into the present butlins car park, and back onto the existing line so as to avoid any shunting or reversing.
Two very small bridges would be needed over a small stream and adjacent public footpath.
A single track loop with signalling to permit of use in either direction would seem sufficient.
Both Butlins and the WSR would gain from this, and there would appear to be a strong case for public money being used for the capital costs in view of the wider benifits to the local economy.
At present on changeover days at the holiday camp, the local roads and therefore buses are almost unusable due to congestion.
A railway link directly into butlins would relieve this and perhaps compare well with the often proposed road widening.
The increased traffic on the WSR would make through running onto the national network far more viable.
The holiday camp is used increasingly outside the holiday season for music festivals and religous events.
the thousands attending such events would be better converyed by rail, at least from Taunton and perhaps from farther afield.
As many others post this unfortunatly seems unlikely in the near term due to the costs.
Much is made of the large number of Butlins customers who at present either drive or take the bus.
Unfortunatly, Minehead station though fairly near the holiday camp, is not near enough for most customers, and is definatly too far to walk with heavy luggage or small children.
Bus transport from Minehead station to butlins is certainly possible, but innvolves another change with risk of delay or c*ck ups.
Some years ago, I believe that there was a serious proposal to build a new station on the WSR to serve Butlins.
Though not exactly a trivial undertaking, it looks entirely doable.
It would require a loop from the existing line into the present butlins car park, and back onto the existing line so as to avoid any shunting or reversing.
Two very small bridges would be needed over a small stream and adjacent public footpath.
A single track loop with signalling to permit of use in either direction would seem sufficient.
Both Butlins and the WSR would gain from this, and there would appear to be a strong case for public money being used for the capital costs in view of the wider benifits to the local economy.
At present on changeover days at the holiday camp, the local roads and therefore buses are almost unusable due to congestion.
A railway link directly into butlins would relieve this and perhaps compare well with the often proposed road widening.
The increased traffic on the WSR would make through running onto the national network far more viable.
The holiday camp is used increasingly outside the holiday season for music festivals and religous events.
the thousands attending such events would be better converyed by rail, at least from Taunton and perhaps from farther afield.
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Whilst I agree 100% with your opening statement,the stumbling block is a whole lot more than a convenient dedicated station for those visiting Butlins.
First and foremost there needs a TOC to have the will and courage to take the risk and propose a regular service. Clearly such a service is well beyond the financial ability of the WSR Plc and so a mainline TOC is the only alternative. Many discussions with all parties over many years have yet to develop into the service we all hanker after.
I do agree that the Butlins traffic could generate through traffic I believe it would provide a small fraction of the income necessary to sustain a profitable venture. All "Butlins" centres would need to be moved to Minehead and even then it wouldn't break even!
The possibility of public funds being used to help fund developments would need to cover the costs of reinstatement of the loops at Kentsford and at Leigh, to ensure efficient running of WSR and mainline services. This necessary work would increase the captial sum required.
Interesting to read your recollection of an earlier proposal because, around 15 years or so ago, I proposed a "halt" for Butlins, with a "drawbridge" over the moat that separates Butlins from the Railway, the bridge allowing access only at appropriate times. An alternative proposal (more costly) involved a short "branch" into Butlins. But the then WSR Plc Chairman dismissed the idea, claiming passengers using such a service at start and end of their Butlins hols would not bother with a steam trip later in the week. Methinks it was a tad shortsighted view!
First and foremost there needs a TOC to have the will and courage to take the risk and propose a regular service. Clearly such a service is well beyond the financial ability of the WSR Plc and so a mainline TOC is the only alternative. Many discussions with all parties over many years have yet to develop into the service we all hanker after.
I do agree that the Butlins traffic could generate through traffic I believe it would provide a small fraction of the income necessary to sustain a profitable venture. All "Butlins" centres would need to be moved to Minehead and even then it wouldn't break even!
The possibility of public funds being used to help fund developments would need to cover the costs of reinstatement of the loops at Kentsford and at Leigh, to ensure efficient running of WSR and mainline services. This necessary work would increase the captial sum required.
Interesting to read your recollection of an earlier proposal because, around 15 years or so ago, I proposed a "halt" for Butlins, with a "drawbridge" over the moat that separates Butlins from the Railway, the bridge allowing access only at appropriate times. An alternative proposal (more costly) involved a short "branch" into Butlins. But the then WSR Plc Chairman dismissed the idea, claiming passengers using such a service at start and end of their Butlins hols would not bother with a steam trip later in the week. Methinks it was a tad shortsighted view!
CarltonA
Member
Butlins at Filey had their own station built in about 1947. It lasted for thirty years before being closed by BR on economic grounds. Not so long afterwards the camp itself bit the dust. The station is still there in the undergrowth somewhere and the camp just some rubble. No way would this be justified unless the cost of motoring was to skyrocket.
For many years the real cost of motoring relative to wages has decreased.
New cars are cheaper to buy, cheaper to run and need longer maintenance intervals.
Petrol has only increased slightly in price, by far less than many train fares.
This may however change in the near future.
There is growing evidence that total world oil production has reached a peak and is declining.
Crude oil prices remain at about $100 despite the worst recession in living memory, it is not long since experts predicted that oil prices would drop back to $30 or less due to the recession.
When petrol reaches £5 a liter, and I think that it will, a mass return to rail appears likely.
Air travel will be badly affected by rising oil prices, making UK holidays more popular. Already a rising number of airlines have bust or are well on the way.
Electric trains, and most steam locomotives require no oil fuel, and diesels use less per head than most cars.
A recent picture on the Latest Pictures page on www.wsr.org.uk shows the new fence installed between alongside the main line between the WSR's present boundary (Barnstaple Junction) and a location opposite the former station hotel at Norton Fitzwarren.
The view looks west from the latter position and also shows the section of track and land soon to be transferred from NR to WSR. It is only about 200 yards or so but it will allow WSR locos and (short) trains to turn on the outer Norton Triangle without encroaching on NR rails.
Eagle-eyed observers will note the rails are shiny. A good indicator of regular use mostly by weekday HOBCs. Busy old junction at Norton Fitzwarren.
Steve
The view looks west from the latter position and also shows the section of track and land soon to be transferred from NR to WSR. It is only about 200 yards or so but it will allow WSR locos and (short) trains to turn on the outer Norton Triangle without encroaching on NR rails.
Eagle-eyed observers will note the rails are shiny. A good indicator of regular use mostly by weekday HOBCs. Busy old junction at Norton Fitzwarren.
Steve
Walking from Butlins to Minehead station takes 20 minutes with 2 young kids but no luggage, done it on friday and it was pi oops I mean pouring down with rain, now doing it with suitcases etc would probably take a few minutes more so not much of a hardship really, the route being extended to Taunton is an excellent idea but the Butlins stop would be a waste of time/ money. The passengers would still have to walk through the park to get to reception plus it would be a pain for Butlins to ensure that all visitors were actually guests.
1708
Member
SR are looking at getting another TOC to run the through services (to test the market).
I hope the SR have more luck than the WSR then! So far, even the occasional "test the market" through service, though often packed, have led to no agreement between a TOC and WSR for regular through services. And then there was the Butlins Express which had admirable aims but ran at the wrong times so was not successful and not repeated http://www.wsr.org.uk/cgi-bin/galleri.cgi?h=Snapshot&p=2007/pix/31454_seaward_25_aug_2007_640
Steve
Pen Mill
Member
Not directly , it has its own separate station a few hundred metres away.
The main line access points are on the other side of the river from Totnes station.
DaveHarries
Established Member
The other regrettable thing is the fact that there are 3 bus services linking between various places on the WSR with Taunton and I suppose the question has to be asked wether regular WSR services to / from Taunton would hold off the competition even though the journey times are shorter by train.
Dave
Dave
Pen Mill
Member
I agree with that ,it is a faff. It would be so much easier if there were a Taunton - Bishops Lydeard shuttle as was the case on the Mixed Traction weekend in June.
It needs FGW(or whomever) to take the plunge though and I guess they have other fish to fry just now.
Does anyone know if the Minehead-Paignton special planned for 30/06/2012 ran ? if so , was it well loaded ?
Indeed, Dave. One thing is absolutely certain. There will be no regular passenger services between the WSR and Taunton unless there is clear evidence that such services will not run at a loss. That was the decision in 1981 and remains just as true today. The WSR has come a long way since 1981 and there's no way all of that investment and hard work is going to be blown away to satisfy a few people who seem unaware of the commercial minefield such a link can be. That said, the WSR's investment in the mainline link is proving lucrative for freight traffic - indeed there's a freight train using it right now.
Steve
Waverley125
Member
for those unfamiliar with Taunton, what would the physical undertaking be to extend WSR metals from the present junction at Norton Fitzwarren to the bay platform at Taunton?
YorkshireBear
Established Member
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Looks like the trackbed is still there for this so i think this.
Putting back in a seperate line (avoiding conflicting movements between heritage and mainline stock) for a 1.2mile stretch along previous trackbed that is now covered in vegetation. And then reinstating the track in the bay platform. Plus facilities to run the train backwards so that the loco can run round. Again along previously in use trackbed with no current development. So not a lot, but a lot. If you get what i mean.
Kindly see my previous posts in this thread...it's not as straightforward as some may think.
Oh - and I can add that the platform mentioned would hold just four or five coaches plus loco (depending on the length of the loco). Most WSR services require seven or more coaches. However, the platform would do for something like a 3-car DMU shuttle - I suspect the annual income from that would not cover the annual outlay, let alone make in-roads into a considerable capital cost
Steve
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Pen Mill
Member
Taking small steps at a time , it would be interesting to know how the Okehampton service is performing financially on its Summer Sundays venture. It may be a precursor for running Saturday & Sunday shuttles from Taunton to Bishops Lydeard with possibly the odd through train to Minehead.
I realise that this is not what Tiny Tim is hoping for but it's a step anyhow.
Edit : I've got a feeling that's how Swanage will eventually startup once the mainline signalling possession has happened in May 2013.
Good question but who runs/charters the Okehampton summer service and who covers any loss?
Steve
Mvann
Member
I think it's Devon and Cornwall railways.
Well after the "customer service" my family and I received on Friday 17 August I really dont care for the railway.
We had a brilliant day (special mention for the lady at Stogumber) until we arrived back at Minehead on the last train at 1730, we watched the 33 leave on the 1735 to Bishops Lydeard and by 1740 we were being ushered off the platform by one of the rudest volunteers I have ever met as the station was now closed and he wanted to get home for his tea, never mind that my son and I wanted to spend a few minutes photographing the locos and coaches (he deliberately got in the way as my son tried to take a picture of 4160 as well).
So the attitude was "you have had your train-ride, what more do you want" as we were told, well thanks for nothing, I am glad I spent nearly £150 on the day to be treated so well.
We had a brilliant day (special mention for the lady at Stogumber) until we arrived back at Minehead on the last train at 1730, we watched the 33 leave on the 1735 to Bishops Lydeard and by 1740 we were being ushered off the platform by one of the rudest volunteers I have ever met as the station was now closed and he wanted to get home for his tea, never mind that my son and I wanted to spend a few minutes photographing the locos and coaches (he deliberately got in the way as my son tried to take a picture of 4160 as well).
So the attitude was "you have had your train-ride, what more do you want" as we were told, well thanks for nothing, I am glad I spent nearly £150 on the day to be treated so well.
Big_Panda_20
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Pen Mill
Member
Chris125
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Totally unnacceptable, but something that can happen anywhere, especially on railways relying on volunteers - its certainly not representative of the railway as a whole. Have you got in contact with the railway so that the individual can be dealt with?
Chris
No we havent, I did write a few emails but they got a bit "vocal" so I deleted them, its a pity really as we have been to the WSR quite a lot and it was by far the worst we have ever been treated (and no I dont fall into the "I am special and expect to be treated as such" which some people do), the "you have had your train ride, what more do you want" really riled me, the other half ushered me out the gate very quickly after I said "pardon, did I hear that right" to him.
The lady in the station at Stogumber was the complete opposite, absolutely brilliant, in fact the other half said that she would sit at Stogumber for a couple of hours watching the world go by while I ride around on the trains next time, but I dont think there will be a next time now. We will stick with the SDR, P&DSR, ESR, WSR and B&WR where we have always felt welcome.
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How long is the turn around on the Taunton terminaters, maybe they could be extended to BL if there is enough time, which I doubt.
The lady in the station at Stogumber was the complete opposite, absolutely brilliant, in fact the other half said that she would sit at Stogumber for a couple of hours watching the world go by while I ride around on the trains next time, but I dont think there will be a next time now. We will stick with the SDR, P&DSR, ESR, WSR and B&WR where we have always felt welcome.
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How long is the turn around on the Taunton terminaters, maybe they could be extended to BL if there is enough time, which I doubt.
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Big_Panda_20
Member
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Pen Mill
Member
You doubt correctly , it appears theres's just enough time to change ends !
Quite agree - totally unacceptable. I will ensure the WSR managers hear about the disappointing end to your WSR trip.
Steve
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Tiny Tim
Member
To be fair to Somerset County Council, they have, in the past, supported the WSR substantially, they may well feel they've done their bit.
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