First West Coast service pattern

WatcherZero · 15 Aug 2012

Im putting this thread here so that it can focus solely on the service patterns, I suppose we will know for sure in a couple of years when they apply for their timetable but if Bolton isnt electrified until 2016 then thats likely when these service patterns will come in so we have a few years yet.

The Blackpool from 2013.... Occasional extension of the current diesel voyager service from Preston?

Bolton, Telford Central, Shrewsbury by 2016.... Replacing a Pendolino to Manchester Piccadilly with a mini pendo and running it through to Blackpool via Bolton using the electrification and extra Pic platforms?

15 minutes saved to Glasgow.... This ones pretty obvious, the previous proposal to make a near non stop Euston-Glasgow service and extending the Birminghmam-Preston services to fill in the missing stops.

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WatcherZero · 15 Aug 2012

Just had the thought that the Bolton service would likely take the path of the former TPE Scotland service saving Northern from having to put on extra capacity.

Starmill · 23 Aug 2012

WatcherZero said:
Im putting this thread here so that it can focus solely on the service patterns, I suppose we will know for sure in a couple of years when they apply for their timetable but if Bolton isnt electrified until 2016 then thats likely when these service patterns will come in so we have a few years yet.

The Blackpool from 2013.... Occasional extension of the current diesel voyager service from Preston?

Bolton, Telford Central, Shrewsbury by 2016.... Replacing a Pendolino to Manchester Piccadilly with a mini pendo and running it through to Blackpool via Bolton using the electrification and extra Pic platforms?

15 minutes saved to Glasgow.... This ones pretty obvious, the previous proposal to make a near non stop Euston-Glasgow service and extending the Birminghmam-Preston services to fill in the missing stops.

Is Bolton being electrified? What evidence have we for this!?

Nym · 23 Aug 2012

starmill said:
Is Bolton being electrified? What evidence have we for this!?

The North West Electrification Programme announcements?

Here...

Although that page is a bit screwed, and missing lines

ainsworth74 · 23 Aug 2012

starmill said:
Is Bolton being electrified? What evidence have we for this!?

That's been on the books for a couple of years now! Do keep up at the back

LNW-GW Joint · 23 Aug 2012

The Bolton promise was made in the same wording as Shrewsbury - for when there are more Voyagers available after the 6-car electrics come in (2016).
I can't think of a routing which makes any sense for a Voyager service just to Bolton, without impacting on other electric services.
It can't combine with a Chester service at Crewe because having travelled via Manchester it can only attach/divide in P6 which is daft.

The Glasgow thing is already posted in the RUS, and involves a new NW service from Euston to Preston/Lancaster/Blackpool picking up Warrington and Wigan (and some other stops), allowing Glasgow trains to be accelerated.
The supposed long loop Euston-Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Crewe-Euston would mean dividing at Wolves and possibly re-attaching at Chester, which also sounds daft.

No doubt NR has given the OK for the paths for all this, or First wouldn't be able to make the commitment.
I hope ORR will now decide pretty quickly on its view of these new services (I'm sure there will be objections from the other franchisees).
Then we will be able to see if there are any pickings for Open Access.
Seems to leave only Cumbrian Coast/Pennine routes, which might not be a viable operation even if there are paths.

WatcherZero · 24 Aug 2012

Ive actually weirdly heard some interviews by First in local papers since then that suggests its going to be a Voyager service working Euston-Blackpool then ECS move to Bolton then Bolton-Euston, it wont run in service between Bolton and Blackpool but form a loop like the suggested Euston-Wolves loop. I know its just five services a day to Holyhead, Bolton, Blackpool and Wolves but is there enough Voyagers for all these routes? I suppose as a Diesel it opens the unlikely possibility of the Voyager service bypassing Manchester and going to Wigan NW and reversing This would effectivley then be a Euston-Wigan service with alternating final destinations allowing them to drop Wigan from the Euston-Scotland express.

Starmill · 24 Aug 2012

Nym said:
The North West Electrification Programme announcements?

Here...

Although that page is a bit screwed, and missing lines

Ahem. Rude much?

Was this the page you meant to direct me to?
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/North_West_electrification.aspx

If so, kindly explain this:
"Manchester to the airport: by December 2013
The first phase of work between Manchester and the airport is well underway. We have modified bridges and upgraded parapets along the route and throughout 2012/13 will be installing the overhead line equipment.

This work is being carried out during the night to minimise disruption to rail services."

Oh, and this "http://www.networkrail.co.uk/assets/0/72/4294967297/30064771426/30064772515/30064773397/e4ccf724-cf8f-410c-8605-bf5b4cbb3a05.jpg"

I think I was rightly confused by the whole thing.

OxtedL · 24 Aug 2012

starmill said:
If so, kindly explain this:
"Manchester to the airport: by December 2013
The first phase of work between Manchester and the airport is well underway. We have modified bridges and upgraded parapets along the route and throughout 2012/13 will be installing the overhead line equipment.

This work is being carried out during the night to minimise disruption to rail services."

Oh, and this "http://www.networkrail.co.uk/assets/0/72/4294967297/30064771426/30064772515/30064773397/e4ccf724-cf8f-410c-8605-bf5b4cbb3a05.jpg"

I think I was rightly confused by the whole thing.

Oh that's fun...

By "Airport" they actually mean Newton-le-Willows I think.

Last time this came up I made this, for clarity. The committee declared it accurate then, I hope it still is.

Starmill · 24 Aug 2012

OxtedL said:
Oh that's fun...

By "Airport" they actually mean Newton-le-Willows I think.

Last time this came up I made this, for clarity. The committee declared it accurate then, I hope it still is.

Um, yeah, that does help actually... thanks

I had been under the impression that Goldborne junction was going to be electrified, hence diverting EMUs away from Bolton? Whatever happens, It looks like Bolton is a LONG way off - much like the Pennines.

YorkshireBear · 24 Aug 2012

starmill said:
Um, yeah, that does help actually... thanks I had been under the impression that Goldborne junction was going to be electrified, hence diverting EMUs away from Bolton? Whatever happens, It looks like Bolton is a LONG way off - much like the Pennines.

Bolton is scheduled for complettion in 2015 i think? just before Bolton, so its not that far off.

The first step is to Newton le Willows to get the manchester scotlands diverted from beginning, then onwards to Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool. Inc Liverpool to Preston.

pemma · 24 Aug 2012

WatcherZero said:
Just had the thought that the Bolton service would likely take the path of the former TPE Scotland service saving Northern from having to put on extra capacity.

Would need an interim measure though if Manchester-Scotland changes in Dec 13/May 14 and Bolton starts getting Euston services in 2016. Then the interim measure is needed before any stock can be cascaded from Thameslink.

Mr Spock · 24 Aug 2012

Are these extensions to Shrewsbury and Bolton firm commitments or just a consideration at the moment?

YorkshireBear · 24 Aug 2012

Mr Spock said:
Are these extensions to Shrewsbury and Bolton firm commitments or just a consideration at the moment?

I think they are in the contract (when signed) as they put it in the bid so they cant take it away.
However rail minister (theresa whats her face) said they would be trials. Which leaves scope to remove if they don't get used.
So essentially use it or loose it! First need to get the marketing right.

pemma · 24 Aug 2012

Mr Spock said:
Are these extensions to Shrewsbury and Bolton firm commitments or just a consideration at the moment?

They're part of the bid so assuming DfT approve the order for new 6 car EMUs in full then First Group have to deliver.

Nym · 24 Aug 2012

YorkshireBear said:
I think they are in the contract (when signed) as they put it in the bid so they cant take it away.
However rail minister (theresa whats her face) said they would be trials. Which leaves scope to remove if they don't get used.
So essentially use it or loose it! First need to get the marketing right.

And if that's the case, keep them as quiet as possible so they loose money, or offer insanely cheap advance fares, so they loose money...

MK Tom · 24 Aug 2012

What about the additional stops at MKC and Nuneaton?

YorkshireBear · 24 Aug 2012

Nym said:
And if that's the case, keep them as quiet as possible so they loose money, or offer insanely cheap advance fares, so they loose money...

the cynical side of me says i agree.
But I hope that is not the case and they try to make the services work it could set a precedent for introducing other new services around the country.

MidnightFlyer · 24 Aug 2012

MK Tom said:
What about the additional stops at MKC and Nuneaton?

It seems like these may be included on a new Preston stopper, which is being introduced at the same time as Wigan / Warrington are likely to be dropped from the Euston-Glasgow trains to allow them to reach the desired 4h10~ mark. It would also tie in well with the new service to Blackpool from 2013 I believe (though only once a day). I would envisage something like MKC, Nuneaton, Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW and Preston being the calling pattern.

Stats · 24 Aug 2012

Mr Spock said:
Are these extensions to Shrewsbury and Bolton firm commitments or just a consideration at the moment?

All new services in the franchise are subject to gaining access rights and necessary permissions from the ORR.

tbtc · 24 Aug 2012

Mr Spock said:
Are these extensions to Shrewsbury and Bolton firm commitments or just a consideration at the moment?

I presume that they are franchise commitments (subject to getting stock, paths etc) but not in the minimum service level laid out by the DfT.

rail-britain · 24 Aug 2012

WatcherZero said:
focus solely on the service patterns

if Bolton isnt electrified until 2016 then thats likely when these service patterns will come in so we have a few years yet

The Blackpool from 2013....
Occasional extension of the current diesel voyager service from Preston?

Bolton, Telford Central, Shrewsbury by 2016....
Replacing a Pendolino to Manchester Piccadilly with a mini pendo and running it through to Blackpool via Bolton using the electrification and extra Pic platforms?

15 minutes saved to Glasgow....
This ones pretty obvious, the previous proposal to make a near non stop Euston-Glasgow service and extending the Birminghmam-Preston services to fill in the missing stops.

The Blackpool service is being achieved by swapping what is currently a Class 390 for a Class 221 (service currently lightly loaded between Euston and Preston)
The Class 221 is currently at capacity, on its current diagram

As above, the Bolton electrification should be completed in late 2015, but even if late should be in place for the 2016 timetable
The main issue will be whether the new EMU will be available (the franchise specification allows for a delivery and acceptance delay of up to 6 months)

The same then applies to Shrewsbury / Telford
A cascade of Class 221 from the above should allow this

The Glasgow service is to be simplified, details can pretty much be confirmed from the sample TPE timetable; stops at Carlisle and Preston only
Several of the local Cumbria MPs have now raised concerns over this, as this had already been proposed by the DfT to Network Rail (June 2012)
I have been ongoing discussions with one of the MPs, but the parliamentary rules do not make this easy (as enquiries are supposed to be made to the local MP only)

Oddly, it would appear there is some duplication with a West Coast and TPE service departing around the same time, whereas at present this service is operated by West Coast
Presumably this was the only soution and resolves a diagram conflict
As an example are the departures between 04:00 and 06:00 from Glasgow

The Scotland - Birmingham service is also to be simplified, pretty much as above
TPE will fill the gaps between Scotland and Preston, details can be found in the sample TPE timetable

LNW-GW Joint · 24 Aug 2012

rail-britain said:
The Blackpool service is being achieved by swapping what is currently a Class 390 for a Class 221 (service currently lightly loaded between Euston and Preston)
The Class 221 is currently at capacity, on its current diagram

Looking forward to First TPE objecting to new services proposed by First WC...
It does put a new gloss on service planning and different franchise rights.

MidnightFlyer · 24 Aug 2012

rail-britain said:
TPE will fill the gaps between Scotland and Preston, details can be found in the sample TPE timetable

Is this available for the public to view?

BelleIsle · 24 Aug 2012

MattE2010 said:
It seems like these may be included on a new Preston stopper, which is being introduced at the same time as Wigan / Warrington are likely to be dropped from the Euston-Glasgow trains to allow them to reach the desired 4h10~ mark. It would also tie in well with the new service to Blackpool from 2013 I believe (though only once a day). I would envisage something like MKC, Nuneaton, Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW and Preston being the calling pattern.

Please do not shoot the messenger if I have been given duff info but...
I have been told that the hourly(!) Blackpool service is independent of the franchise bid and entirely to do with capacity issues on the Glasgow route. Removing the Warrington/Wigan stops and giving Preston a half hour service should rectify this (for now). Saving a few minutes to Glasgow is a bonus.

Combined with other service improvements, the problem is capacity south of Rugby and at Stafford. Computer modelling has shown that a timetable recast will give you an extra path per hour from Euston to Rugby. However, Stafford requries grade seperation of the Stoke line (already planned). This would give two extra paths, the other being used for an additional Brum-Manc service.

As for Blackpool itself, this is more for operational reasons rather than a desire to serve the Fylde. i.e. it is a bugger to turn around trains at Preston. Other options were considered such as Lancaster. There was much debate with the relevant local councils.

The service trailed by First is an interim one until all the infrastructure is in place. Best estimates put the sparkly new service described above at 2017 at the earliest.

One other titbit my source mentioned was direct summer Blackpool-Glasgow services later in the decade using 350s.

Off to ask my mate the one stupid thing I forgot - stopping patterns Preston-Blackpool. Guessing Kirkham/Poulton.

rail-britain · 24 Aug 2012

MattE2010 said:
It seems like these may be included on a new Preston stopper, which is being introduced at the same time as Wigan / Warrington are likely to be dropped from the Euston-Glasgow trains to allow them to reach the desired 4h10~ mark. It would also tie in well with the new service to Blackpool from 2013 I believe (though only once a day). I would envisage something like MKC, Nuneaton, Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW and Preston being the calling pattern.

Go to page 92 :
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publicatio...se-itt/invitation-to-tender-main-document.pdf

Glasgow / Preston services will not be calling at Nuneaton

Milton Keynes is served only by Wolverhampton, Birmingham NS (every second service, alternate calls at Rugby instead), Chester, and Manchester services

Mr Spock · 24 Aug 2012

Nym said:
And if that's the case, keep them as quiet as possible so they loose money, or offer insanely cheap advance fares, so they loose money...

They do not LOOSE money they LOSE it.

calc7 · 24 Aug 2012

Is there anything to stop NUN being added to the Liverpools? I say this because:
-They already have one less stop than the Manchesters
-There is a horrendous amount of slack in them, so I don't even think advertised journey times would have to increase
-The train behind, on the Down at least, is the xx10 to CTR which stops at MKC so no pathing conflicts in that respect.

Nym · 25 Aug 2012

Mr Spock said:
They do not LOOSE money they LOSE it.

Yayyy, the sleeping police are out again...

Either way, they really could do to make money on these, I don't think there will be through services again if they loose it

krisk · 25 Aug 2012

Bolton 1tph with first and last services running to Preston

First West Coast service pattern

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