getting off the train early

brianfraser · 24 Aug 2012

I've heard that if you buy one of those use-it-or-lose it advance cheap singles, you can actually be charged the full whack if you attempt to get off the train before your final destination and are stopped at a ticket barrier.

Can this really be true? If I buy a pint of beer and make for the door before draining my glass, the barman can't haul me back in and demand a surcharge on the basis "you must consume the full pint mate"

Surely if I pay for a journey to point X, I'm entitled to terminate my trip at an earlier station if I want to. And what happens at these ticket checks if you stand your ground and say "sorry, I'm not paying"

RailUK Forums

455driver · 24 Aug 2012

Yes it is true.

If you refuse to pay or give your name and address when asked you can be arrested.

ralphchadkirk · 24 Aug 2012

You pay a discounted price for less flexibility with your ticket. Part of those conditions are that you can only join the train at the origin on your ticket, and only leave the train at the destination on your ticket (barring exceptional circumstances).

Your analogy is not correct. If you paid £1.80 rather than £3.20 for a pint, and the barman told you that you must finish it or pay the full £3.20 (rather like those food challenges) would be a more fitting analogy.

If you refuse to pay the upgrade then you *could* be prosecuted.

brianfraser · 24 Aug 2012

But it doesn't make sense that you can be penalised for using less of the service than what you've paid for.

This would never stand up in a court of law.

Darandio · 24 Aug 2012

brianfraser said:
But it doesn't make sense that you can be penalised for using less of the service than what you've paid for.

This would never stand up in a court of law.

gordonthemoron · 24 Aug 2012

there are ways of getting off early and not getting found out

ralphchadkirk · 24 Aug 2012

brianfraser said:
But it doesn't make sense that you can be penalised for using less of the service than what you've paid for.

When you paid for the ticket you accepted that by paying a lower price than normal you agree to abide by more restrictive conditions. Have you ever seen those massive breakfasts where if you finish them, you don't pay? However if you leave a bit then you do. A very similar concept.

In short, you've paid to travel between those two stations and not to get off unless one of the usual exceptions apply. So by alighting from the service you have gone outside the boundaries of your ticket and thus have invalidated it.

Do you make the comment "this would never stand up in court" on the basis of a considered legal argument, or a hunch? I would never be so definite as to say it 'never' would.

Edit: please see this post from a knowledgable forum member.

brianfraser · 24 Aug 2012

ralphchadkirk said:
Do you make the comment "this would never stand up in court" on the basis of a considered legal argument, or a hunch? I would never be so definite as to say it 'never' would.

Ok, I'll rephrase it as "this would be unlikely to stand up in a court of law"

I think any threat to prosecute would be a bluff by the train company. As long as you stay calm and provide your name and address if asked, would the police really be interested in taking this further?

ralphchadkirk · 24 Aug 2012

brianfraser said:
I think any threat to prosecute would be a bluff by the train company. As long as you stay calm and provide your name and address if asked, would the police really be interested in taking this further?

It would be a private criminal prosecution, put before the Court by the Train Operating Company. The Police, and the CPS, would not have anything to do with the case in the usual circumstances.

221129 · 24 Aug 2012

The Police wouldn't but the TOC might and it should hold up in court as a simple byelaw Prosectution

telstarbox · 24 Aug 2012

This has been discussed many, many times on the forum with various analogies to Coke multipacks, restaurants, hotels, flights and so on, which are not always helpful.

The fact remains that When you buy an 'Advance' ticket you enter into a contract with the relevant Train Operating Company (TOC), which includes the condition that you must travel between the start and end stations and not 'stop short'.

DaveNewcastle · 24 Aug 2012

brianfraser said:
But it doesn't make sense that you can be penalised for using less of the service than what you've paid for.

This would never stand up in a court of law.

You are incorrect.
The Advance ticket is a very special contract for a journey on a specific train on a specific day at a specific time between specific stations. To do otherwise is a breach of contract.
Analogies with general consumer transactions are not appropriate. If you must, find one where the Contractor has an obligation to get you to the end of your contracted and agreed operation even if you were asleep, their staff disappeared and their equipment failed, with millions of pounds worth of insurance to cover you in the process and the potential of a refund - a pint of beer does not come with all of those obligations.

We've had this same debate at least twice this month, and you might find some of the posts helpful:
Fares advice Grimsby - Newcastle.

Would this be classed as stopping short ?

and going back a couple of years, the now perhaps ledgendary Professor Evans stopping short at Darlington:
Professor slapped with £155 railway fine for getting OFF the train one stop early.
or
When using an advance ticket, do you have to use it EXACTLY as specified....
and the 2 people travelling to Devon charged after alighting one station early,
all with all the same sort of analogies.

brianfraser said:
This would never stand up in a court of law.

Just 20 minutes "research" on the internet will provide you with the evidence to the contrary to that assertion. Please don't confuse opinion with fact.

brianfraser said:
Ok, I'll rephrase it as "this would be unlikely to stand up in a court of law"

I think any threat to prosecute would be a bluff by the train company. As long as you stay calm and provide your name and address if asked, would the police really be interested in taking this further?

Yes, it will. For the reasons I've tried to illustrate. Its a breach of Contract, the Police don't come into it. There are hundreds of Railway ticket prosecutions going through the Courts every week, and they succeed on the Contractural breach or Criminal Offence or Byelaw offence which Rail Operators are entitled to prosecute when people travel without an appropriate ticket.

yorksrob · 24 Aug 2012

Although apparently a train company is allowed to sell you an advanced ticket, but is under no such obligation to actually get you there (being able to get out of it by coughing up a refund on the day of travel).

What a world we live in.

GadgetMan · 24 Aug 2012

yorksrob said:
Although apparently a train company is allowed to sell you an advanced ticket, but is under no such obligation to actually get you there (being able to get out of it by coughing up a refund on the day of travel).

What a world we live in.

I assume you are referring to megabus/train. They are not a Train company.

djh1986 · 24 Aug 2012

DaveNewcastle said:
Just 20 minutes "research" on the internet will provide you with the evidence to the contrary to that assertion. Please don't confuse opinion with fact.

To save me 20 minutes, do you have any specific court cases to hand?

DaveNewcastle · 25 Aug 2012

yorksrob said:
Although apparently a train company is allowed to sell you an advanced ticket, but is under no such obligation to actually get you there (being able to get out of it by coughing up a refund on the day of travel).

I'd be obliged to you if you could cite your references or authorities which define this assertion, please.

I'm aware of many passengers being carried great distances by taxi when there is a technical problem preventing travel by the rail journey as booked, and I'm aware of full fare refunds being offered when the Company had conveyed the passenger, but was late. [I've received both of those benefits myself].
But I'd be specifically grateful for clarification of "is under no such obligation to actually get you there". (I do hope you are referring to an 'Advance' and not one of those 'Megatrain' tickets)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is a slightly odd question!

djh1986 said:
To save me 20 minutes, do you have any specific court cases to hand?

Yes, of course I do - at work. But you can do your own research, based on your own interest.
Depending on where you are in the Country, you should be able to find what you are looking for; the highest volumes of prosecutions that I'm aware of are in Manchester and London Mags.
But there's something about the tone of your request that leads me to think that you might be more interested in this successful Appeal, where the prosecuting TOC declined to respond : Burns vs First Capital Connect 2012 [EWHC 1305 (Admin)]

yorksrob · 25 Aug 2012

Sorry to dissappoint DaveNewcastle, but I refer precisely to the megatrain example which I regard to be sharp practice and morally questionable, regardless of what the law says.

route:oxford · 25 Aug 2012

yorksrob said:
Sorry to dissappoint davenewcastle, but i refer precisely to the megatrain example which i regard to be sharp practice and morally questionable, regardless of what the law says.

Very sharp practice. Currently under investigation by Passenger Focus - and a very good reason why Virgin should lose the West Coast Franchise.

By law the Principal must take responsibility for the actions of their Agents. Leaving a passenger bouncing between two "slopey shouldered" "customer service" reps who are each blaming the other half of the company for the problem.

neilmc · 25 Aug 2012

Back to the original assertion, of course it doesn't make sense. But a lot of legislation pertaining to railways doesn't make sense, and is heavily weighted in favour of rail service providers as opposed to passengers, of which the prohibition on stopping short on advances is a particularly onerous one which any sensible person would scarcely believe to be legal - until it happens. But I'm convinced that surcharging stopping short is technically legal though extremely immoral.

The only comparison I can think of was in respect of cross-channel ferries, where day trips were cheaper than single journeys and thus the companies would only accept payment by card so they could surcharge passengers who didn't make the return journey, again an immoral practice IMO.

hairyhandedfool · 25 Aug 2012

route:oxford said:
Very sharp practice. Currently under investigation by Passenger Focus - and a very good reason why Virgin should lose the West Coast Franchise....

So a company should not be given a franchise because another, not directly related, company sells tickets it does not have? Not sure I can agree with that at all.

sevenhills · 25 Aug 2012

DaveNewcastle said:
The Advance ticket is a very special contract for a journey on a specific train on a specific day at a specific time between specific stations. To do otherwise is a breach of contract.

Just like the contract is broken, if the train is 30 minutes late because the driver has done a sicky?
Contracts get broken all the time, there is always an element of 'reasonable'.

hairyhandedfool · 25 Aug 2012

sevenhills said:
Just like the contract is broken, if the train is 30 minutes late because the driver has done a sicky?
Contracts get broken all the time, there is always an element of 'reasonable'.

The contract is for travel between two stations, the terms and conditions of that contract are what decide what is and is not allowed for the fare paid.

A condition is that if the train is sufficiently delayed, compensation is due by the Train Company. Another condition is that if you break your journey (on an Advance fare), except to change trains, you owe the railway money.

The contract is only broken by the Train Company if they do not get you to the contracted destination at all, or in some way breach the terms of the contract.

sevenhills · 25 Aug 2012

All contracts must be reasonable, so is it reasonable to have cheaper tickets for travelling a longer distance? If tickets were bought, knowing that the person would be getting off the train sooner, then that would be a broken contract. But if the person is getting off at an unmanned station, then its not enforceable. And I would think it would not be sensible to enforce any such condition.

cuccir · 25 Aug 2012

In many cases, you're correct that it is unenforcable/difficult to enforce. In many other cases, TOCs do actively chose not to enforce it.

That doesn't stop it from being part of the T&Cs of the contract.

If trains are (sufficiently) late, or are cancelled, train companies have obligations to the passengers under these contracts.

route:oxford · 25 Aug 2012

hairyhandedfool said:
So a company should not be given a franchise because another, not directly related, company sells tickets it does not have? Not sure I can agree with that at all.

So let me get this right...

You are saying there is no direct link between the Principal, Virgin Trains (51% owned by stagecoach), and the Agent, Megatrain (100% owned by stagecoach)?

hairyhandedfool · 25 Aug 2012

route:oxford said:
So let me get this right...

You are saying there is no direct link between the Principal, Virgin Trains (51% owned by stagecoach), and the Agent, Megatrain (100% owned by stagecoach)?

I am saying Virgin Trains is not Megatrain and Megatrain selling tickets that they do not have is nothing to do with Virgin Trains.

221129 · 25 Aug 2012

route:oxford said:
So let me get this right...

You are saying there is no direct link between the Principal, Virgin Trains (51% owned by stagecoach), and the Agent, Megatrain (100% owned by stagecoach)?

Virgin Rail is only 49% owned by Stagecoach

yorkie · 25 Aug 2012

route:oxford said:
Very sharp practice....

If Stagecoach continue to operate with sharp practices then I would absolutely support them losing all franchises and not being awarded any other franchises. However, sadly, the DfT are not showing much evidence of being interested in customer service. If Stagecoach or First offer the bid that is actually the worst for passengers but is viewed by the DfT as best for (car-driving) taxpayers, then they will win. Simple as that.

As for finishing short, when break of journey is not permitted, the rules that appear in the EC Revenue Manual (that was obtained by an FOI request) are that if a passenger travels " Short of Destination – where the fare to the new destination is more than that to the original destination and break of journey is not allowed" then, for a single ticket, the passenger can be charged "the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Single fare for the actual journey being made. Railcard discounts are allowed provided the original ticket is discounted" Can anyone at other TOCs confirm what their manuals say?

However a member of EC gateline staff at a station near York, who wishes to remain anonymous, told me that their instructions were to allow a passenger to exit without charging an excess fare.

In the case of the Professor at Durham, EC quashed the UFN instantly.

34D · 25 Aug 2012

DaveNewcastle said:
But there's something about the tone of your request that leads me to think that you might be more interested in this successful Appeal, where the prosecuting TOC declined to respond : Burns vs First Capital Connect 2012 [EWHC 1305 (Admin)]

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/1305.html&query=first+and+capital+and+connect&method=boolean may interest others.

This must be the shortest Judgment I have ever read (from this century at least)

yorksrob · 25 Aug 2012

hairyhandedfool said:
I am saying Virgin Trains is not Megatrain and Megatrain selling tickets that they do not have is nothing to do with Virgin Trains.

Well, whoop de doo.

I do know that the conditions of carriage specifically disallow third parties from re-selling train tickets, which suggests that the megatrain people must be in cohoots with the TOC in question to allow those sales to go ahead - in which case it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect them to abide by certain rules.

getting off the train early

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