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utopiank

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Right, I know you have all seen lots and lots of these threads but I just would like some friendly advise if possible. Also, I understand I have been foolish and stupid and I deeply regret my actions.

Tonight, me and two other friends were travelling by train to a football match. Our local station was closed and there is no electronic ticket machine. We got on the train (which was 15 minutes late) and travelled two stops to the ground. When we got off there was a large queue where tickets were (unusually) being checked. Annoyed, because we were definitley going to miss the start of the game, we decided it would be a good idea to try and pull a quick one and say our ticket was from the stop before the one we got off at, (one stop after the one we actually got off on.)

However, when our tickets were checked, the inspector asked another man if we got on at the station our tickets said, which he said no. Im guessing this guy is an undercover train officer of some sort. We were then taken to one side with our details taken, and I was worried and kept asking "what will happen? Will we be fined?" To which the man kept saying "Its not about the fine - wait for the letter." He then took my friends and mine date of births and then chuckled and said "thats why you wanted to know about the fine! Your not children and these are children tickets!" I am 17, my two friends 16.

This was a genuine mistake (hard to believe due to our other offence) and I did not realise it was 15 for an adult ticket, or I would not have asked for a child. The man was arrogant and belittled me after this, when I told him it was a genuine mistake he kept telling me that lies should not be told and to wait for this letter. He was a foreign man and was hard to understand sometimes but he definitley spoke in a derogatory way to me and my friends. Another bloke (English) took one of my friends details and was understanding about it, asking the other man to hurry up so we could go to the game. I asked hime about if I would get a fine, and he said he honestly doesnt know he just reports whats happened and just to reply to the letter.


I'm really worried. Im going into my second year at college doing A-Levels and obviously its time to apply for universities but the thought of getting a criminal record or having to pay thousands of my university to fund in a fine is really scaring me after reading some internet stories.

I know we were stupid and did a foolish thing - but does anyone know what will happen to us? What will this letter be about, will it be a caution, fine (how much?) or just a letter to tell me to appear in court? Any help would be appreciated, thank you.
 
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sonic2009

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Utopiank welcome to the forum, rest assured we have members on here who will offer advice to you.

One question may I ask please, is which station where you travelling from & to and the train operating company you used please.
 

utopiank

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Utopiank welcome to the forum, rest assured we have members on here who will offer advice to you.

One question may I ask please, is which station where you travelling from & to and the train operating company you used please.

Thankyou, i travelled from adlington to horwich parkway, said i got on blackrod. Company is northen rail. Thank you for your reply
 

djh1986

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However, when our tickets were checked, the inspector asked another man if we got on at the station our tickets said, which he said no. Im guessing this guy is an undercover train officer of some sort.

You're pretty bang to rights on most of this really but this bit interested me.

How many carriages did the train have? If more than one, this man's evidence is seriously dubious as I'm not sure how one man can confirm which station you boarded at.
 

utopiank

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You're pretty bang to rights on most of this really but this bit interested me.

How many carriages did the train have? If more than one, this man's evidence is seriously dubious as I'm not sure how one man can confirm which station you boarded at.

The train was large, it had roughly 4 carriages with me getting on one of the front 2 carriages, the ticket inspector was on the back carriage. I believe the train was split in two halves so to speak so he could not get to where I was, but this was not an attempt at fare dodging on my behalf as I didnt think much about it and just got on the carriage that stopped in front of me (oh how this could all been avoided if he had charged me then and there.)

And im not sure in relation to your point to be honest, the man was not wearing any uniform and was just in casual clothes. The inspector (in northen rail uniform) spoke to him on first name terms and seemed to be doing this for most people e.g. "sebastian, did these get on at blackrod?"
 

yorkie

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I expect Northern will be writing to you, they will probably ask you for a written Statement for your version of events, before they decide whether or not to prosecute.

Would you prefer to defend any potential legal action taken against you by Northern, or would you prefer to settle out of court?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How many carriages did the train have? If more than one, this man's evidence is seriously dubious as I'm not sure how one man can confirm which station you boarded at.
But is the OP going to be contesting that evidence? It sounds like the answer is 'no'.
 

utopiank

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I expect Northern will be writing to you, they will probably ask you for a written Statement for your version of events, before they decide whether or not to prosecute.

Would you prefer to defend any potential legal action taken against you by Northern, or would you prefer to settle out of court?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But is the OP going to be contesting that evidence? It sounds like the answer is 'no'.

I suppose out of court. I am guilty - I admitted to saying I got on at a later stop than I did. The person, whoever he was, obviously knew where we got on so I cant really contest his evidence. Does it sound likely they will prosecute and take me to court?
 

DaveNewcastle

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Once we remove the irrelevant stuff about 'he was a foreign man' 'hard to understand' 'which station you were travelling from', 'football match', '15 minutes late' 'annoyed'. 'college', 'worried' etc.
I think the question is this:
I am under 18. I travelled by rail without a ticket. When buying a ticket I lied about the origin station. I lied about my entitlement to a child discount. My lies were detected, How do I avoid the consequences of my actions?

Is that the true story? If so, then there probably is a good prospect of having a Solicitor negotiate a settlement with the Railway Operator based on the assumption that, on account of your age, the Magistrates would be persuaded to offer you a Discharge and the Company would receive nothing - the settlement will be a more advantageous means for the Company to recover its costs in investigating your lies than receiving nothing after a Discharge in the Magistrates Court.
Now then, who's going to pay for that Solicitor?
Have you told your parents yet? Or just an anonymous internt forum?
 

utopiank

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Once we remove the irrelevant stuff about 'he was a foreign man' 'hard to understand' 'which station you were travelling from', 'football match', '15 minutes late' 'annoyed'. 'college', 'worried' etc.
I think the question is this:
I am under 18. I travelled by rail without a ticket. When buying a ticket I lied about the origin station. I lied about my entitlement to a child discount. My lies were detected, How do I avoid the consequences of my actions?

Is that the true story? If so, then there probably is a good prospect of having a Solicitor negotiate a settlement with the Railway Operator based on the assumption that, on account of your age, the Magistrates would be persuaded to offer you a Discharge and the Company would receive nothing - the settlement will be a more advantageous means for the Company to recover its costs in investigating your lies than receiving nothing after a Discharge in the Magistrates Court.
Now then, who's going to pay for that Solicitor?
Have you told your parents yet? Or just an anonymous internt forum?

I lied about my origin station, However was unaware that in the eyes of the train company I am an adult at 15.

No, I am not asking to avoid the consequences of my actions. I am merely asking what will happen to me. I'm worried sir/madam, I made a mistake and am in genuine fear for my future after this one stupid foolish act.

I have spoke to my mother about this, she believes it wont be a huge fine and my girlfriend also believe that I shall perhaps get a 20 pound fine a wrap on the knuckles and sent packing. I hope this is the case but obviously i'm worried sick its going further.
 

scrapy

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I would wait for the letter. As you are under 18 there is a good chance the letter will be a warning, depending on the content of the report from the RPI. If that is the case your details will be held on file and any further offences will be treated more seriously and it i unlikely you would get an out of court settlement in the future. It maybe that you will first be asked for your version of events. A few years ago Northern had an policy that they didn't prosecute under 18s for a first time minor ticketing offence, I am not sure if this is still the case. If you are 15 then you should still pay child fare. 16 is adult fare (certain exceptions such as with F&F railcard apply).
 

Skimble19

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It's possibly one of the most ridiculous rules that applies to most transport modes.. Mysteriously children become adults at 15 ish! Perhaps that explains why many can be seen lingering at stations in the evening drunk - in the eyes of the railway they are adults, after all :lol:
 

Urban Gateline

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I lied about my origin station, However was unaware that in the eyes of the train company I am an adult at 15.

No, you are an adult at 16 and upwards, which is a moot point anyway as you had a Child ticket that you were not entitled to, let's face it, you probably knew that you had to buy an adult ticket but wanted to try it on to save money...

I don't have any sympathy for your case as it seems you clearly showed intent to avoid paying the correct fare, I get passengers come up to me every shift at the barriers without a ticket and I have to trust the origin they stated, so it is good to see that some people do get caught out when lying!
 

yorkie

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I am merely asking what will happen to me.
I am not sure what Northern's policy is for 16-17 year olds.

But, if their policy is to prosecute, and they have sufficient evidence to do so (it does sound like they do), then a fine is a probable outcome, however you should be far more concerned about the criminal record that will be with you (and visible to any future employer whose policy is to do a CRB check) for life. Whether that is a problem or not depends on your career plans.

I'm worried sir/madam, I made a mistake and am in genuine fear for my future after this one stupid foolish act.
Well, you could write to the Company, saying this (and not saying the irrelevant excuses) and offering to pay both the correct fare that was due, and, of course, any costs incurred by the Company. Perhaps some sort of promise regarding your future conduct would also help.

It would, however, be advisable to enlist the advice of a solicitor to advise, though I have heard several reports from people who have written their own letters who have been able to successfully settle without incurring solicitors costs. It is an increased risk though.

If an out of court settlement is not reached then I would urge you to seek legal advice and be properly represented by a solicitor in court.
I have spoke to my mother about this, she believes it wont be a huge fine and my girlfriend also believe that I shall perhaps get a 20 pound fine a wrap on the knuckles and sent packing. I hope this is the case but obviously i'm worried sick its going further.
It may not be huge, but £20 is far too low, and you could well be sent packing.. with a criminal record.

I do not think we can help you further.
 

bb21

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However was unaware that in the eyes of the train company I am an adult at 15.

We have no reason to doubt this, however what do you reckon the magistrates will think, when presented this in conjunction with the fact that you deliberately asked for a short ticket?

I have spoke to my mother about this, she believes it wont be a huge fine and my girlfriend also believe that I shall perhaps get a 20 pound fine a wrap on the knuckles and sent packing. I hope this is the case but obviously i'm worried sick its going further.

As others have said, wait for the letter to arrive for now. There is not much we can help you with until you have received the letter and we know exactly what Northern's intentions are.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I am not sure what Northern's policy is for 16-17 year olds.


.

I cannot speak for Northern, but I know another TOC whose policy is 16 - 17 years 6 months - generally sent a strongly worded letter saying payment is required, but won't go to court as dealing with youth courts is too troublesome.

Over 17years 6months - will be held over until the defendant reaches 18 then sent to magistrates court. The company has to go to court within 6 months of the offence date, so as long as the person turns 18 within 6 months they will hang onto it until they reach 18 then go to court.

On a separate note, I don't think 16 is an unreasonable age. On all the buses near me you pay the adult fare when you are 14, unless you have a half fare pass, which you can only get if you live in the county. I know a similarly low age applies on many bus companies.

 

DaveNewcastle

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Whether 16 is a reasonable age or not, at which a passenger is expected to pay the full fare for their rail travel isn't the point, of course, (though I would have thought 'reasonableness' might be proportionate to the age at which children cease to be accompanied by a responsible adult of neccessity - an age which varies between families and locale, times of day and other factors, to make things more complicated).

The point which the OP is making is the suggestion that they didn't know.
That does surprise me. Just the 3 words "child fare train" in Google bring up this as the first page: Discounts for children and all the other search results on the first page appear to be similarly informative.
Its surprising that a parent wouldn't have explaind it when beginning to allow a child to travel by themselves; its surprising that railway personnel had never mentioned it; its most surprising that none of the friends and peers of the OP had never mentioned it, not even one of the others in the group of 3; - unless they lead rather quiet lives, they have probably made tens if not hundreds of journeys made without a parent using child tickets, and the thought that no one in the group ever raised the 'age' question is staggeringly improbable. So surprising, that its tempting to imagine that they chose to turn a deaf ear to the fact as it hadn't been more firmly presented to them - until now.

As for what happens next, that has been covered in previous posts. However if legal assistance is required, then that will probably be in the order of a few hundred pounds, depending on exactly what is taken from the letter received (which is why I asked if a parent knew about the incident).
What definitely should happen next, from now on, is that the OP and all his/her friends pay the correct fare for their travel.
 
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utopiank

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What definitely should happen next, from now on, is that the OP and all his/her friends pay the correct fare for their travel.

Most definitley sir, The ticket office where I live closes earlyish and isnt open past noon so I shall get up to get a ticket before travelling from now on!

Okay, you have all been honest and helpful with your contributions. All I can do now is wait for the letter and see what my fate shall be, and hope to god I do not get a criminal record as this will, truth be told, ruin any future dream career prospects I hope to persue.

Looking at the very wide range of responses here, it looks like the best case scenario for me is a small(ish) fine. Worse case, well I dont want to think about that.

Thank you to all the posters who took there time to contribute and reply to this thread, I shall post again when I get the letter.

Thanks
 

yorkie

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Most definitley sir, The ticket office where I live closes earlyish and isnt open past noon so I shall get up to get a ticket before travelling from now on!
There is no need to do that, you can buy on board, just ensure you ask for a ticket that is valid for the journey you are making and isn't for any discount you are not entitled to.

However buying the ticket before travel can save queuing at your destination if the guard is unable to reach you before you get off. At some stations the queues can be horrendous (e.g. Leeds at peak times).

Looking at the very wide range of responses here, it looks like the best case scenario for me is a small(ish) fine.
I disagree. The best case is either reaching an out of court settlement or alternatively a competent Solicitor may be able to achieve a successful outcome for you (but that would cost you).
Worse case, well I dont want to think about that.
If you are found guilty, it will be a fine and a criminal record. As I understand it, the level of fine would depend on your financial circumstances and whether you plead guilty or not guilty. If I were you I would be far more concerned about the criminal record than the amount of the fine.
 

DaveNewcastle

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While that benefit of 50% discount for children ceases after reaching age 16, that is also the age at which passengers become eligable to use a Young Person's Railcard, which brings a 30% discount on (almost) all rail tickets.

I mention this for two reasons:
1. it may help reduce the financial burden following the loss of the 50% discount after 15,
2. the Railcard's publicity and popularity is another reason for being surprised that a 17 y.o. would not know that they no longer qualify for a 'child' discount. [I am mentioning all these reasons for doubting the OPs claim, not because I need to demonstrate my own interpretation and doubts, but because the OP is, at some point going to give their account to the Railway Company, and the persuasiveness of that report is likely to be informed by some of the factors I'm listing here. The Company's revenue protection team will have heard all the excuses that could ever be imagined, and will have already formed opinions of the likliness of each excuse to be a contributory factor, or a post hoc rationalisation.]
 
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sevenhills

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He knows the ticket office closes at noon, a bright lad that is doing his A levels, but not that a 17 year old needs an adult ticket. Pull the other one.
 

eastdyke

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There is no need to do that, you can buy on board, just ensure you ask for a ticket that is valid for the journey you are making and isn't for any discount you are not entitled to.

However buying the ticket before travel can save queuing at your destination if the guard is unable to reach you before you get off. At some stations the queues can be horrendous (e.g. Leeds at peak times).

....

Others reading this thread may take this advice without appreciating that the OP is travelling from a station and on a service where Penalty Fares do not apply. There is a need to check, there may be a need to buy a ticket or permit to travel before boarding a train to avoid a penalty fare!

FWIW I think that the OP has been courageously honest here and I do wish him/her well in taking the best course of action from here.

I also think that TOCs and the railway industry generally would do well to publicise both cause and outcome for cases like this. Especially as different rules are applied to different journeys on different trains. And as penalty fares have been in use for a number of years I believe that some TOCs may have become both blasé and complacent to the detriment of the wider good.
 

Chouette

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Just to confuse the matter, travelling on the Cumbrian Coast Line in the early 2000s I was regularly charged child fare when travelling on the train in the uniform of my sixth form at age 17/18. Even when I showed my YP railcard.

In the end I figured it must be policy, and though I never *asked* for a child fare, I didn't object when the child ticket was inevitably printed - I certainly appreciated having more pocket money!

It was the same if I got the bus in uniform - ask for a one, put down the money for a one, and get a half...

And no, I didn't look young for my age - the reverse, in my case.

So I can fully imagine that it is not beyond the realms of possibility for a 17 year old to be confused.
 

RJ

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Down this way in the heart of ghetto South London, most at my secondary school simply didn't buy a ticket. At 16, then they started buying child tickets (£2 Travelcards.) At 18, once news spread of people getting PFs for having a child ticket, it's only then that people started buying proper tickets.

It's not that children don't know, it's more about the perception of how likely it is to get away with paying as little as possible, if anything at all. It was easy for people to get away with it, what with 4-8 coach trains with no guard. Very different to the rail travel arrangements up north.
I'm sure things are different now that Southern have put barriers in everywhere however!
 

cuccir

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A little more advice to the OP, which I think Dave Newcastle hinted at in post 8, but has maybe not been emphasised enough. If a letter comes asking for your version of events, that means they are considering prosecution (as has been said, as you are under 18 they may not do that). If you chose to write to them offering to settle out of court - which may be a good idea as it would avoid a criminal record, but would also provide them with enough evidence to get a conviction if they decide to proceed - leave out all the extras, such as 'train was 15 minutes late', 'difficult to understand', 'arrogant'. State what happened clearly, calmly and apologetically, as you have done in your later posts in this thread!
 

34D

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I see that Blackrod and Horwich are in GMPTE (and Adlington is the first station outside). I know that other PTE areas have half fare passes (for bus and train) that are available to college students - does our OP have a similar pass here?

Next question being whether (if so) the GM one covers anything slightly beyond the boundary?

Do I understand correctly that one officer actually printed a child ticket for you, then another queried where you had boarded?
 

utopiank

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A little more advice to the OP, which I think Dave Newcastle hinted at in post 8, but has maybe not been emphasised enough. If a letter comes asking for your version of events, that means they are considering prosecution (as has been said, as you are under 18 they may not do that). If you chose to write to them offering to settle out of court - which may be a good idea as it would avoid a criminal record, but would also provide them with enough evidence to get a conviction if they decide to proceed - leave out all the extras, such as 'train was 15 minutes late', 'difficult to understand', 'arrogant'. State what happened clearly, calmly and apologetically, as you have done in your later posts in this thread!


Its the criminal record that I am needing to avoid. I do think if I got one, then I would have to drop out of college and scrap all chances of uni, as my current career paths I am considering (teaching/journalism) would more than likely be dead ends.

So if I try offer an out of court settlement they could just use that to convict me in court?

I see that Blackrod and Horwich are in GMPTE (and Adlington is the first station outside). I know that other PTE areas have half fare passes (for bus and train) that are available to college students - does our OP have a similar pass here?

Next question being whether (if so) the GM one covers anything slightly beyond the boundary?

Do I understand correctly that one officer actually printed a child ticket for you, then another queried where you had boarded?

I am not aware of any half fare passes available to students, which I would be delighted to obtain. Are they purchasable online?

I did not have a ticket when I boarded the train as the ticket office in adlington is rarely open, and when it is its in the morning only. I was not charged for a ticket on the train, so when I got off I went to the ticket station to purchase one. I asked for a child(whilst not many people me, this was a genuine mistake of mine. If you have to be 14 for a child ticket, then I really feel like I should have been told there and then, I look older than 17, Im 6 foot tall and had a bit of a moustache coming on!) from blackrod (as said above, not a mistake just me trying to dishonest to keep a few quid in my pocket.)

As walking to the gate where inspection was, I was asked to show my ticket. The ticket officer asked a man in plain clothes if me and my friends got on at blackrod, the reply was no, ticket man took details, also advised us that we are not children.
 

cuccir

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Its the criminal record that I am needing to avoid. I do think if I got one, then I would have to drop out of college and scrap all chances of uni, as my current career paths I am considering (teaching/journalism) would more than likely be dead ends.

It would be no reason to drop out of college. I certainly don't think it would stop you from doing journalism. Any conviction would be 'spent' after 2.5 years, so you wouldn't have to put it on application forms. By the time you finished at university, then, you wouldn't have to put it on job application forms EXCEPT for those with enhanced CRBs. I can't see journalism requiring an enhanced CRB, though teaching probably will. Most careers won't, so don't worry.

So if I try offer an out of court settlement they could just use that to convict me in court?

It is a possibility that they could use the evidence that you provide in the letter as a confession.

However, I think that you already confessed to the ticket inspector at Horwich station? As such they already have that evidence anyway, so there is nothing to be lost with a grovelling apology letter.

But wait first - as we've said, it may be that they decide not to prosecute due to your age, or they may prosecute under the Railway By-Laws, which carry a fine but do not appear on a criminal record.
 

Greenback

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A criminal record will show up on an Enhanced CRB check, but that does not mean that the organisation will automatically reject the application for employment.

My organisation is pretty sympathetic towards offences of this type which were committed by teenagers. provided that these were disclosed before the CRB, as otherwise there would be additional question marks over the applicants honesty.
 

34D

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I am not aware of any half fare passes available to students, which I would be delighted to obtain. Are they purchasable online?

Sadly it appears that GM don't have anything for 17 year olds -

http://www.gmpte.gov.uk/journey_planning/tickets_low_fares_under16
And
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/891/school_transport/958/transport_policy_statements_for_students_in_further_education_aged_16-19/2

Others may know more.
 

utopiank

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If anyone was interested with how this was resolved, shortly after posting this thread I recieved the generic letter that Northern usually send out, asking me for my turn of events. I replied with an extremely sympathetic letter and admitted to everything but apologised sincerely and pledged that I would never do anything like such again. After that, I recieved a letter with a 30 pound fine for administrative costs, and then an additional few pounds for the actual train fare with no criminal record. I can honestly say I've learnt my lesson and have payed the full fare everytime on the train since. I just thought i'd post this to conclude the thread as I hadnt seen many on here that told me how it panned out in the end which had me rightfully worried throughout the process.

My advice to anyone else in the same situation is to be completely honest, come clean to what you did and cooperate fully. I was grateful with my still quite hefty fine, but I know it could have been much worse.
 
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