• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The state of Irish railways

Status
Not open for further replies.

jcevans

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
24
Hi all,

I'm just wondering from a sociological perspective why Ireland's railways are so behind those on the continent? 3 particular angles:

1. Why has the Enterprise line never been upgraded for high speed travel? I believe its the slowest intercity route in Europe. Why has there been no pressure to upgrade the line and trains into a high speed line? Surely a 1hr Belfast-Dublin train would be massively popular? Has there ever been a movement to put the line out to tender to someone like Virgin / First / Stagecoach?

2. Why were 2/3rds of the network shut down after the 1920s? Is there any movement to bring back these lines?

3. Until the Irish Civil war was the network part of British Rail? Why was the decision taken to isolate the Northern Irish sector from the rest of the nation? Surely British Rail should have also looked after Northern Ireland's railway infrastructure?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
1) New road developments along the same route look like taking its toll on the line, plus from places in Western / Mid NI it is exceptionally quicker to drive than get to Portadown or Newry.

2) Both companies are keen however the economic slump has stagnated growth in the South, a lot of new lines and stations (like M3 Parkway) are ghostly silent even in the peaks. The development of motorways makes long-distance rail travel elsewhere unattractive in some respects too - the Limerick-Galway line mirrors a motorway or A road I believe, and isn't beyond the realms of closure as a result, even though only 4 years old.
 

Csalem

Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
292
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Hi all,

3. Until the Irish Civil war was the network part of British Rail? Why was the decision taken to isolate the Northern Irish sector from the rest of the nation? Surely British Rail should have also looked after Northern Ireland's railway infrastructure?

British Rail was not created until 1948. Prior to that it was the 'Big Four' of LMS, LNER, GWR, SR which were formalised around 1921 around the time the two Irelands were created. Belfast had its own parliament with control over public transport.

As for why most of the lines were shut down, mostly because they served areas with low density population.
 

Liam

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
1,246
Compared to the bus railways in Ireland are very expensive and not that much quicker, if at all. Dublin to Cork return by rail comes in at €66 and takes 2h30 to 3hr. Bus Eireann retuen costs €21.85 and takes 3h30. No contest in my opinion. Especially as Bus Eireann coaches are clean and comfortable.

Even looking a few weeks in advance I can only get the rail fare down to €40.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Population sixe, density, concentration and geographical factors have all combined to make railways less viable in Ireland compared to mainland Europe in my view. I don;t think the two are comparable.
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
Hi all,

2. Why were 2/3rds of the network shut down after the 1920s? Is there any movement to bring back these lines?

Ireland's history is not altogether a happy one and most unusually for a "developed" country the population of what is now the Irish Republic fell from 6.5 million in the 1840s to 2.9 million in the 1920s. The population only started to grow after about 1960 and is now over 4 million. Over the same period the population of England went from 14 million to 50 million

Within this fall the population of Dublin rose considerably while the rest of the Republic fell. One of the results of this rural depopulation is that the railways had not only to compete with other forms of transport (buses & lorries) but manage a falling traffic base.

It also goes some way to explain why the Irish railways were to the fore in developing low cost railcars in advance of the rest of Britain.
 

102 fan

Member
Joined
14 May 2007
Messages
769
In Northern Ireland the old Stormont government was anti railway. When the railways in the north were nationalised, it was only a matter of time before the closures came. Odd to think that a 'loyalist' government should set about to destroy the railways that helped the UK during the war!
 

jcevans

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2012
Messages
24
Ireland's history is not altogether a happy one and most unusually for a "developed" country the population of what is now the Irish Republic fell from 6.5 million in the 1840s to 2.9 million in the 1920s. The population only started to grow after about 1960 and is now over 4 million. Over the same period the population of England went from 14 million to 50 million

Within this fall the population of Dublin rose considerably while the rest of the Republic fell. One of the results of this rural depopulation is that the railways had not only to compete with other forms of transport (buses & lorries) but manage a falling traffic base.

It also goes some way to explain why the Irish railways were to the fore in developing low cost railcars in advance of the rest of Britain.

Very interesting to see the effects of the Irish famine into the 20th century.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,647
Location
Redcar
Very interesting to see the effects of the Irish famine into the 20th century.

Not just the Potato Famine as there was also emigration during this time as well. I don't have the figures to hand (they're buried somewhere in my Uni notes) but emigration during the 19th century was massive, indeed I'd suggest that by the 1880s(ish) it was probably emigration rather than the results of the famine that were dragging down the population.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,652
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Irish railways were heavily subsidised before WW1 and the ownership was almost wholly in Ireland.
The Midland and LNWR had some interests in Dublin and the north but sold them in the 1920s.
The biggest and most successful railway (GN(I)) straddled the border after 1921 and was slowly strangled by the two governments.
The gauge problem prevented useful GB/I interworking like train ferries.

When I saw the post I thought this was about the financial crisis in the Republic - apparently the railways only continue operating becasue of special parliamentary subventions. Not in good shape.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Not just the Potato Famine as there was also emigration during this time as well. I don't have the figures to hand (they're buried somewhere in my Uni notes) but emigration during the 19th century was massive, indeed I'd suggest that by the 1880s(ish) it was probably emigration rather than the results of the famine that were dragging down the population.

Indeed, there was a lot more to it than the potato famine. Too much to go into here, but social, geographical and political factors all contributed to the mass emigration fo the times.
 

IR-Mark4/ICR

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2012
Messages
82
1. Why has the Enterprise line never been upgraded for high speed travel? I believe its the slowest intercity route in Europe. Why has there been no pressure to upgrade the line and trains into a high speed line? Surely a 1hr Belfast-Dublin train would be massively popular? Has there ever been a movement to put the line out to tender to someone like Virgin / First / Stagecoach?

Because you have two company's and none will take any responsibility for the line. You have a limit of 90mph in NI, and a very congested line North of Dublin. Both company's can't agree on anything and for any sort of developments to take place you need money which both don't have and some level of cooperation which we also don't have. 2 years to have refurbished EGV sent up North to be tested on the Entreprise says a lot!

Compared to the bus railways in Ireland are very expensive and not that much quicker, if at all. Dublin to Cork return by rail comes in at €66 and takes 2h30 to 3hr. Bus Eireann return costs €21.85 and takes 3h30. No contest in my opinion. Especially as Bus Eireann coaches are clean and comfortable.

Even looking a few weeks in advance I can only get the rail fare down to €40.

Bus Eireann's €21.85 = 4 hour journey which tends to take 4h30-5h as always late
Irish Rail €40 = 2 hour 40 minute journey average
Aircoach €22 = Non Stop service that takes 3h (private operate launched route in April with 17 return daily services)

Galway line also faces major competition with 2 private operates, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail with bus services much quicker than the train with bus fares from €10.

Sligo and Westport lines are only ones that are still faster than Bus, Car etc.

OAP don't help thing either as they get free travel and Irish Rail are payed buttons for it.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
It's difficult to discuss this kind of thing without getting into a political argument given the emotive nature of things (since some people can't even agree on whether Belfast is in "the north" / "Ulster"/ "the six counties" / Northern Ireland" etc whilst keeping all toys in the pram).

However I would say that one reason for the poor service between Belfast and Dublin (as well as the cross-border issues) is that Belfast isn't that big a place. It's roughly the size of Brighton or Sunderland or Plymouth, so whilst its obviously the biggest place north of the "border" it's not as big as Cardiff/ Edinburgh etc.
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
Irish railways were heavily subsidised before WW1 and the ownership was almost wholly in Ireland.
The Midland and LNWR had some interests in Dublin and the north but sold them in the 1920s.
The biggest and most successful railway (GN(I)) straddled the border after 1921 and was slowly strangled by the two governments.
The gauge problem prevented useful GB/I interworking like train ferries.

When I saw the post I thought this was about the financial crisis in the Republic - apparently the railways only continue operating becasue of special parliamentary subventions. Not in good shape.

The Midland Railway lines in the north were part of the LMS (NCC) and were nationalised in 1948.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,857
However I would say that one reason for the poor service between Belfast and Dublin (as well as the cross-border issues) is that Belfast isn't that big a place. It's roughly the size of Brighton or Sunderland or Plymouth, so whilst its obviously the biggest place north of the "border" it's not as big as Cardiff/ Edinburgh etc.

It's bigger by population than, for example, Stoke, Wolverhampton and Nottingham, and only roughly 20,000~ short on Cardiff. Add to that the populations en-route (Newry and Portadown (for Craigavon, Lisburn and Lurgan)), as well as those in the Greater Belfast area like Carrickfergus, Hollywood and out towards Antrim and it soon adds up.
 

PFX

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2011
Messages
355
To fully cover all the reasons for the decline of railways on the island would probably take a book in itself but very briefly, civil war, population, neglect, partition, bad infrastucture, and rolling stock choices all play a part.
 
Last edited:

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,046
It is interesting to compare the current rail service between the two largest cities in Scotland (Ppoulation around 5m) and the two largest cities in the Island of Ireland (Population - similar?). Around 10 trains per hour compared with one every two hours!
 

PFX

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2011
Messages
355
It is interesting to compare the current rail service between the two largest cities in Scotland (Ppoulation around 5m) and the two largest cities in the Island of Ireland (Population - similar?). Around 10 trains per hour compared with one every two hours!

Not sure where you got your numbers for Edinburgh and Glasgow but it is slightly less than that of Dublin and Belfast which is 1.35m. Edinburgh and Glasgow is 1.03m.

Comparable number-wise yes, but when you then look deeper at the distribution of populations, Edinburgh and Glasgow are fairly balanced whereas there is a massive imbalance between Dublin (1.05m) and Belfast. This means passenger flow itself, is by no means similar.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
It is interesting to compare the current rail service between the two largest cities in Scotland (Ppoulation around 5m) and the two largest cities in the Island of Ireland (Population - similar?). Around 10 trains per hour compared with one every two hours!

But you are talking twice the distance between Belfast and Dublin that there is between Glasgow and Edinburgh, plus a smaller population too.

For various reasons, whilst many people living in Glasgow will spend a day working in Edinburgh (or vice versa), and this has been the case for a long time, there's not been the same demand for travel between Belfast and Dublin.

And Glasgow to Edinburgh was only around three trains an hour (two via Falkirk, one via Shotts) fifteen years ago - only with National Express doubling the Falkirk service (with 158s replaced by 170s) and the re-opening of the slow route through Airdrie and Bathgate have we seen numbers increasing.
 

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,046
Not sure where you got your numbers for Edinburgh and Glasgow but it is slightly less than that of Dublin and Belfast which is 1.35m. Edinburgh and Glasgow is 1.03m.

Comparable number-wise yes, but when you then look deeper at the distribution of populations, Edinburgh and Glasgow are fairly balanced whereas there is a massive imbalance between Dublin (1.05m) and Belfast. This means passenger flow itself, is by no means similar.

I meant the populations of the different countries at around 5million each for both Scotland and Ireland (Island of).
Yes all sorts diferent factors but I'm still surprised (as I am sure many others are) at the low level of service.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,589
Location
East Anglia
Compared to the bus railways in Ireland are very expensive and not that much quicker, if at all. Dublin to Cork return by rail comes in at €66 and takes 2h30 to 3hr. Bus Eireann retuen costs €21.85 and takes 3h30. No contest in my opinion. Especially as Bus Eireann coaches are clean and comfortable.

Even looking a few weeks in advance I can only get the rail fare down to €40.

Pretty much exactly the problem, in general Bus Eireann, and private operators have added coach services which are much cheaper, generally more frequent and even quicker in some cases such as the Dublin to Galway case and the standard of coaches is hugely improved across the country from what it was 10 years ago.

On the Dublin to Galway route you have non stop buses from Citylink and GoBus which take 2.5 hours from city centre to city centre, limited and multi-stop services from Bus Eireann. On Dublin to Cork you have limited stop services from Bus Eireann, and First Aircoach running a non stop service that takes three hours, with GoBus supposed to be launching a new route soon. Then you have Bus Eireann, Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanagh on Dublin to Limerick.

I believe Citylink have now launched a Galway - Limerick - Cork express service whilst Aircoach recently launched a non stop service from Dublin to Belfast 22 times a day in each direction which takes the same time as the train in addition to the joint Ulsterbus/Bus Eireann service that operates almost every hour in the summer although the Aircoach Cork and Citylink service I mentioned in this paragraph seem to be struggling for numbers.

Population density and line speeds seem to be the two major problems from what I have seen.
 

kylemore

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2010
Messages
1,046
Pretty much exactly the problem, in general Bus Eireann, and private operators have added coach services which are much cheaper, generally more frequent and even quicker in some cases such as the Dublin to Galway case and the standard of coaches is hugely improved across the country from what it was 10 years ago.

On the Dublin to Galway route you have non stop buses from Citylink and GoBus which take 2.5 hours from city centre to city centre, limited and multi-stop services from Bus Eireann. On Dublin to Cork you have limited stop services from Bus Eireann, and First Aircoach running a non stop service that takes three hours, with GoBus supposed to be launching a new route soon. Then you have Bus Eireann, Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanagh on Dublin to Limerick.

I believe Citylink have now launched a Galway - Limerick - Cork express service whilst Aircoach recently launched a non stop service from Dublin to Belfast 22 times a day in each direction which takes the same time as the train in addition to the joint Ulsterbus/Bus Eireann service that operates almost every hour in the summer although the Aircoach Cork and Citylink service I mentioned in this paragraph seem to be struggling for numbers.

Population density and line speeds seem to be the two major problems from what I have seen.

So effectively the Irish railways are hanging on by their fingernails and would be dumped by the politicians if that was politically possible!?
 

Csalem

Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
292
Location
Dublin, Ireland
How odd, during my year of studying Irish history, that was never mentioned :/

Funny enough, most people growing up in Ireland in the 50s, 60s, 70s, & 80s did not know about the Irish Civil War either. Irish history was about the battle against the British State and not between ourselves. Of course by coincidence the political party in power for most of those decades was the one who lost the Civil War.
 

citybus

Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
31
In terms of Belfast's population, it's around 400,000 in the city proper, with about another 50,000 in Lisburn which is only has half a kilometre of Greenbelt between it and South Belfast. The two other termini within a half hour train journey of Belfast, Carrickfergus and Bangor (and the halts in the hamlets nearby), would have around 100,000 residents. As insignificant as Northern Ireland is as a state, it does have a large civil service and you'll find that much of the people that live in these satellite towns travel into Belfast to work in this or other industries. So in a sense as a city it punches above it's own weight in terms of jobs. This is not reflected in the public transport network, which has been under invested in in favour of the motorcar.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the themes I've picked up from reading is that partition had a negative impact on the train network, as around seven of the lines crossed the border (only one of which now remains in use). What they never explain is why it had this effect. After all the reasons for carrying passengers and goods from one place to another shouldn't change just because the rail network now crosses an international boundary. After all both NI and the Free State shared the same currency, were both nominally part of the British empire, and had a border that wasn't heavily policed- Irish Nationals can still live and work in the UK without applying for visas; people from Northern Ireland can still own Southern passports, etc.

If rail travel between the North & South made business sense before partition then I see no reason why it ceased to make sense once the border was in place. It seems to me that out of sheer political pettiness the Stormont government (and maybe the Dail as well) tried and succeeded in massively stifling communication between North & South.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In reply to the original poster's second question:-

2. Why were 2/3rds of the network shut down after the 1920s? Is there any movement to bring back these lines?

Ireland was a bit of an oddity in that it probably had a lot more miles of railroad per head of population than mainland Britain did, although admittedly many of these trains would have been cheaper narrow gauge lines. So many of these stations were in small villages that are so insignificant nowadays that they would barely qualify for one bus a day let alone any other form of public transport. Just look at this map of the 1906 network to see how big it was
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg

The reason for their existence was usually freight, with passengers being an added bonus. The road network in the Victorian era would have been dire, and investing in branch lines would have been the only sensible way to bring goods to and from these rural and sometimes geographically challenging areas.

But then the internal combustion engine was invented, and there was no longer a rail monopoly. The growth of buses and lorries was initially hindered by the fact that the roads were falling apart and couldn't withstand motorised traffic. But private transport had the advantage of not having to properly contribute to the upkeep of these roads, whereas the railways had to maintain their tracks as no one would fix it for them. So eventually the decision was made by the governments to subsidise road transport by improving the roads. Many of the railway businesses weren't very profitable anyway and with competition from lorries it was inevitable that many of them would die out.
 

jamesontheroad

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2009
Messages
2,046
All of the above plus... car ownership is very high in both the Republic and Northern Ireland. Throughout the Troubles, people in NI avoided public transport because of frequent disruption (bomb alerts) and concerns about safety (stoning of trains, hijacking of buses, etc). This engendered a very car dependent culture.

Look at Queen's or the University of Ulster. Almost every domestic student has a car, even at aged 17 or 18. That's unheard of in any GB university. Because people spend so much money running their car, they inevitably use them more for intercity journeys.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top