First win Intercity West Coast franchise

rail-britain · 30 Aug 2012

Wath Yard said:
If Virgin ave signed a contract for 21 6-car EMUs then they are rather stupid - they haven't got a franchise to run them on

No, each franchise applicant would have obtained heads of terms agreements with suitable contractors, so that they could include the costs in their franchise bid
Virgin Rail Group plan was to order 21 EMU and dispose of the Voyager
This is one of the costs involved when placing a franchise bid
This is where Branson refers to the flawed system, as this should be covered by the DfT who specify the final rolling stock order

As an aside, it would appear there will be no consultation between Virgin Rail Group and First Group for the handover, this process will now have to be handled by DfT
The representative from Virgin Rail Group did not attend the signing of the next franchise contract, on Tuesday 28 August (to confirm hand over of specific items, TUPE, and so on)
A further meeting was arranged for yesterday, again did not attend, but the contract was finally signed with Virgin Rail Group marked as absent

RailUK Forums

LNW-GW Joint · 30 Aug 2012

swt_passenger said:
Haven't they been pushing this for a few years, yet it was always said they couldn't do this without cab signalling. (IIRC their point of view was that cab signalling was not required until 140 mph, but the rules were that it was required for all speeds greater than 125 mph.)

So have they now got a cab signalling system in mind - or is it still a 'vapourware' upgrade as it was a few years back?

It's TASS isn't it?
Would be nice to know if NR thinks it is feasible.

swt_passenger · 30 Aug 2012

LNW-GW Joint said:
It's TASS isn't it?
Would be nice to know if NR thinks it is feasible.

No it isn't. TASS is already there to supervise speed and tilt, but it doesn't replace lineside signalling.

Morgsie · 30 Aug 2012

What is going on?
Has DfT gone ahead and signed it?

Another Press Release from Virgin

SprinterMan · 30 Aug 2012

Stats said:
Virgin have said on twitter that mini-pendolinos were to be hauled by new Vossloh locos.

Do they never learn?
Dragging electric sets with diesel locos is asking for trouble. Pendolinos regularly refuse to couple to 57s at Crewe as it is. I was booked on the drag coming back from uni and a Voyager turned up. Dragging a 90 to Yarmouth at the weekend caused it to panic and display "General Fault". Virgin want to continue this practice. Really. Really.

When First win, I hope the 57s are scrapped. All of them. When the WAG express was 57 hauled, it was considered early if the northbound working was 10mins late into Bangor. I want to see them gone. 47s or 67s please, not some weird hybrid of the two that doesn't work properly.

swt_passenger said:
Haven't they been pushing this for a few years, yet it was always said they couldn't do this without cab signalling. (IIRC their point of view was that cab signalling was not required until 140 mph, but the rules were that it was required for all speeds greater than 125 mph.)

So have they now got a cab signalling system in mind - or is it still a 'vapourware' upgrade as it was a few years back?

It was "greater than 125mph+10%" is what I heard. so 137.5mph. Virgin's argument was that if they were electronically limited to 135mph they would still be fine.

Adam

F Great Eastern · 30 Aug 2012

rail-britain said:
As an aside, it would appear there will be no consultation between Virgin Rail Group and First Group for the handover, this process will now have to be handled by DfT
The representative from Virgin Rail Group did not attend the signing of the next franchise contract, on Tuesday 28 August (to confirm hand over of specific items, TUPE, and so on)
A further meeting was arranged for yesterday, again did not attend, but the contract was finally signed with Virgin Rail Group marked as absent

So basically Virgin, the champion of staff and customers, is now trying to ensure there is a disruptive handover to try and prove a point. Talk about sore losers. This just shows that they care about nobody other than themselves.

That is a very different image to which they are giving off to the public.

SprinterMan · 30 Aug 2012

Morgsie said:
What is going on?
Has DfT gone ahead and signed it?

Another Press Release from Virgin

Link doesn't seem to work

Hazlehead · 30 Aug 2012

rail-britain said:
No, each franchise applicant would have obtained heads of terms agreements with suitable contractors, so that they could include the costs in their franchise bid
Virgin Rail Group plan was to order 21 EMU and dispose of the Voyager
This is one of the costs involved when placing a franchise bid
This is where Branson refers to the flawed system, as this should be covered by the DfT who specify the final rolling stock order

As an aside, it would appear there will be no consultation between Virgin Rail Group and First Group for the handover, this process will now have to be handled by DfT
The representative from Virgin Rail Group did not attend the signing of the next franchise contract, on Tuesday 28 August (to confirm hand over of specific items, TUPE, and so on)
A further meeting was arranged for yesterday, again did not attend, but the contract was finally signed with Virgin Rail Group marked as absent

What contract? Thought couldn't be signed?

F Great Eastern · 30 Aug 2012

Morgsie said:
Another Press Release from Virgin

I do swear by almighty god that Richard Branson is actually Jesus and we must all repent for our sins and justify everything to him, as he is the almighty ruler.

Morgsie · 30 Aug 2012

http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2012/08/firstgroups-criticism-of-west-coast.html

Mike395 · 30 Aug 2012

rail-britain said:
A further meeting was arranged for yesterday, again did not attend, but the contract was finally signed with Virgin Rail Group marked as absent

Have you got a source for this? Considering it hasn't been reported in the press, I highly doubt this is true.

tbtc · 30 Aug 2012

If Virgin were going to be running new services to Blackpool, Bolton, Shrewsbury, Stirling etc then having twenty one mini-Pendos doesn't sound anything like enough to replace their twenty one* Voyagers.

Maintaining an hourly service from Crewe to Chester will mean a lot of drags - wouldn't it have been cheaper to electrify the line?

"a loyalty scheme in partnership with a major scheme provider"? Nectar points? Clubcard? Green Shield stamps? Esso Tiger Tokens? (am I showing my age?)

(* - they have twenty one - even though they don't use two of the "cab" vehicles")

WatcherZero · 30 Aug 2012

tbtc said:
If Virgin were going to be running new services to Blackpool, Bolton, Shrewsbury, Stirling etc then having twenty one mini-Pendos doesn't sound anything like enough to replace their twenty one* Voyagers.

Maintaining an hourly service from Crewe to Chester will mean a lot of drags - wouldn't it have been cheaper to electrify the line?

"a loyalty scheme in partnership with a major scheme provider"? Nectar points? Clubcard? Green Shield stamps? Esso Tiger Tokens? (am I showing my age?)

(* - they have twenty one - even though they don't use two of the "cab" vehicles")

They are also planning to raise the linespeed of the WCML to 135mph. Most of the works already been done from the previous failed upgade and Network Rail thinks it can complete it for a couple of hundred million.

ANorthernGuard · 30 Aug 2012

Speaking to the staff who actually work these lines and know a heck of a lot more about Virgin than the rest of us put together they are all very worried and don't believe the First Spin. from what I have seen Virgin have been a very good employer and they now dread First Group, hopefully a lot of their fears are unfounded but you have people with 20/30 years service worried about their jobs, not a very good place to be for a lot of their staff.

rail-britain · 30 Aug 2012

Morgsie said:
What is going on?
Has DfT gone ahead and signed it?

Yes, it was supposed to be signed on Tuesday, but was deffered to Thursday
Virgin Rail Group refused to attend, and as a result sign

F Great Eastern · 30 Aug 2012

ANorthernGuard said:
Speaking to the staff who actually work these lines and know a heck of a lot more about Virgin than the rest of us put together they are all very worried and don't believe the First Spin. from what I have seen Virgin have been a very good employer and they now dread First Group, hopefully a lot of their fears are unfounded but you have people with 20/30 years service worried about their jobs, not a very good place to be for a lot of their staff.

So good to their staff that they are making sure to make the TUPE transfer as awkward as possible from what rail-britain has said. Sounds almost like they are trying to scare or upset their staff and make life hard for them in an event of a transfer in December, in order to get them on-side by making them fearful.

WatcherZero · 30 Aug 2012

rail-britain said:
Yes, it was supposed to be signed on Tuesday, but was deffered to Thursday
Virgin Rail Group refused to attend, and as a result sign

They legally cant, the ITT specifically says that it cannot be signed if there is a legal challenge in progress. If Greening was stupid enough to sign it she just ended Firsts chance of winning it, at least in this round.

ANorthernGuard · 30 Aug 2012

F Great Eastern said:
So good to their staff that they are making sure to make the TUPE transfer as awkward as possible from what rail-britain has said. Sounds almost like they are trying to scare or upset their staff and make life hard for them in an event of a transfer in December, in order to get them on-side by making them fearful.

or maybe the staff enjoy a good employer? and don't want firstgroup

eastdyke · 30 Aug 2012

rail-britain said:
Yes, it was supposed to be signed on Tuesday, but was deffered to Thursday
Virgin Rail Group refused to attend, and as a result sign

In your prevoius post you said:

' ... As an aside, it would appear there will be no consultation between Virgin Rail Group and First Group for the handover, this process will now have to be handled by DfT
The representative from Virgin Rail Group did not attend the signing of the next franchise contract, on Tuesday 28 August (to confirm hand over of specific items, TUPE, and so on)
A further meeting was arranged for yesterday, again did not attend, but the contract was finally signed with Virgin Rail Group marked as absent'

So was it signed on Wednesday or Thursday? And some quoted source would be useful please.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And on the subject of an orderly / disorderly handover, I would be very surprised if this was not covered in some detail in the original Franchise Agreement.

6Gman · 30 Aug 2012

ANorthernGuard said:
Speaking to the staff who actually work these lines and know a heck of a lot more about Virgin than the rest of us put together they are all very worried and don't believe the First Spin. from what I have seen Virgin have been a very good employer and they now dread First Group, hopefully a lot of their fears are unfounded but you have people with 20/30 years service worried about their jobs, not a very good place to be for a lot of their staff.

But if they've been there for more than 15 years they must already have changed employers at least once. Sadly, transfers under TUPE are now a part of business life.

F Great Eastern · 30 Aug 2012

ANorthernGuard said:
or maybe the staff enjoy a good employer? and don't want firstgroup

And they are entitled to have that view, but my point is that if there is a contract handover where staff need to change to First, Virgin should be making sure it does anything in it's power to make sure it goes smoothly for it's staff.

They can still challenge the decision through the courts at the same time, but they should not use staff as a pawn in the game, nor try and make the hand-over as rough as possible as that benefits neither the traveling public or the staff.

In any case such staff will be able to make a proper judgement if and when they speak to First or work for them, at the moment they haven't even had that chance, all they hear about their future is what Virgin tell the and naturally they are not going to paint a rosy picture of First.

ANorthernGuard · 30 Aug 2012

F Great Eastern said:
And they are entitled to have that view, but my point is that if there is a contract handover where staff need to change to First, Virgin should be making sure it does anything in it's power to make sure it goes smoothly for it's staff.

They can still challenge the decision through the courts at the same time, but they should not use staff as a pawn in the game, nor try and make the hand-over as rough as possible as that benefits neither the traveling public or the staff.

In any case such staff will be able to make a proper judgement if and when they speak to First or work for them, at the moment they haven't even had that chance, all they hear about their future is what Virgin tell the and naturally they are not going to paint a rosy picture of First.

I remember FNW and they were s**t , Northern started off for the 5 or so years gr8 then a change of top dog put paid to that, Virgin staff all seem to be happy and over the years Virgin had the franchise that is rare. of course things wont probably be as bad as they think, but they are worried and there is no getting away from that.

Stats · 30 Aug 2012

rail-britain said:
Yes, it was supposed to be signed on Tuesday,

No, it wasn't. The earliest it could be signed was midnight Wednesday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19366438

A Department for Transport spokesman said: [snip]

"The earliest contracts can be signed is midnight on Wednesday 29 August."

F Great Eastern · 30 Aug 2012

But they'd be far from the only people who were happy working for one operator who got to TUPE over to another. The difference is in every case in the past the outgoing operator has ensured there would be a smooth handover, rather than trying to disrupt it.

There were staff who worked for former National Express franchises (when they had lots of them, not modern day NE) who were happy, others for Anglia Railways and First Great Eastern who did not want to go to National Express, but they just got on with it quietly.

The thing is a lot of the things that are being moaned about, or not co-operated with have happened many times without any problems down the years, but this is the First time that so may routine things have caused so much fuss. It does the private system we have here no favours.

I'm not one of the people who wants to see the whole lot re-nationalised myself, but if we have this situation happen every single franchise award we may as well save ourselves the bother of tendering and do just that.

tbtc · 30 Aug 2012

ANorthernGuard said:
or maybe the staff enjoy a good employer? and don't want firstgroup

Are TPE a terrible employer?

WatcherZero said:
They are also planning to raise the linespeed of the WCML to 135mph. Most of the works already been done from the previous failed upgade and Network Rail thinks it can complete it for a couple of hundred million.

Even if 135mph shaves a few minutes off some journeys, I don't see how Virgin can run extra services to Preston/ Bangor, introduce direct trains to Shrewsbury/ Bolton/ Blackpool/ Stirling etc without any net increase in the number of trains (twenty one EMUs replacing twenty one Voyagers).

Maybe their new buffet provision will only require five loaves and two fish?

Realfish · 30 Aug 2012

tbtc said:
I don't see how Virgin can run extra services to Preston/ Bangor, introduce direct trains to Shrewsbury/ Bolton/ Blackpool/ Stirling etc without any net increase in the number of trains (twenty one EMUs replacing twenty one Voyagers).

Maybe their new buffet provision will only require five loaves and two fish?

It's possible that some of the 390/3's would run in multiple then split at say, Crewe, one part to N Wales the other to Preston / Blackpool, or indeed split at Preston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wath Yard said:
Wonderful, more spin and lies. :roll:

If Virgin ave signed a contract for 21 6-car EMUs then they are rather stupid - they haven't got a franchise to run them on.

I seem to remember, many pages back, when speculating that First might have done so, it was thought that any sensible operator would sign an agreement in principle, ahead of the franchise award.

Why would Virgin be lying? Presumably all of these proopsals are in their franchise document?

Pen Mill · 30 Aug 2012

Polarbear said:
In addition to the legal challenge, Virgin have also issued a challenge to First Group regarding their bid & the associated commitments. The press release on the VT website also lists some of the bid details that Virgin would implement should they have been successful.

http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2012/08/virgin-challenges-first-group-on-west.html

Deary me , they think it's a reality game show and the sad thing is that all their sheep public will too.
Given that they're taking legal action to wrestle the contract from them, there's only one response that FG can give and that would be foxtrot oscar.

First will be cowards and whatever in the eyes of the bleating petioners but they have to tell them nothing and that's what they should do.

tbtc · 30 Aug 2012

Realfish said:
It's possible that some of the 390/3's would run in multiple then split at say, Crewe, one part to N Wales the other to Preston / Blackpool, or indeed split at Preston

I still can't see how they'd do this without needing a net increase in the number of trains though - twenty one EMUs replacing twenty one Voyagers would be okay if they were just keeping the same timetable, but not when you want to serve Stirling/ Blackpool/ Bolton/ Shrewsbury plus introduce additional services.

Plus the complication of an hourly drag from Chester to Crewe... it just doesn't add up for me.

The plans sound great, don't get me wrong, but I can't see how they'd manage all these extra services without a net increase in units. At least First were planning on getting 125mph EMUs *and* keeping the Voyagers (so that the ten of the Voyagers effectively become the extra stock needed for Bolton/ Blackpool etc.

dosxuk · 30 Aug 2012

Realfish said:
I seem to remember, many pages back, when speculating that First might have done so, it was thought that any sensible operator would sign an agreement in principle, ahead of the franchise award.

It was also said on those pages that First can't be intending to lease new 390s, because Alstom will have destroyed the jigs and won't make them, and they don't meet current safety standards.

capital12 · 30 Aug 2012

Pen Mill said:
Deary me , they think it's a reality game show and the sad thing is that all their sheep public will too.
Given that they're taking legal action to wrestle the contract from them, there's only one response that FG can give and that would be foxtrot oscar.

First will be cowards and whatever in the eyes of the bleating petioners but they have to tell them nothing and that's what they should do.

It does make me laugh reading some of the over opinionated tripe on here - I am backing Virgin because in my opinion (and it is mine - I'm not being brainwashed and I also didn't have four legs and a wool coat last time I looked either) they offer far better customer service than FirstGroup.

I've used First Great Western, Transpennine Express and Capital Connect and the service wasn't great. Couldn't fault Virgin, ok they can be a bit late sometimes but at least it feels like they respect you as a customer rather than treat you as a hinderance like First.

I make the decision (again all on my own) to use Virgin when I can, I also make the decision to avoid using First at all cost. I rate customer service quite highly so why would I want to travel with First when I can provide my own grumpiness in the car?!

With regard individual bids, I see it as quite suspect that First barely pay anything back until the end of franchise where as Virgin would pay back more in the short to medium term. I would have thought in the current economic climate that would be preffered over a promise of possibly something in 10 years time when who knows what the financial landscape will look like.

First win Intercity West Coast franchise

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member