Scottish independence

MattE2010 said:

Funny that, Mr Field is one of only two Labour MPs I can stand the sight of. Quite unexpected error, Labour's future almost relies on Scotland staying.

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Yes I was quite suprised as well, as you say he is normally sensible in most respects.

The day people make a decision on what to vote in a referendum based on what an MP says will be a very sad one.

It's a big and important decision, and one for people to make on their own.

The Scottish Government intends to hold a referendum of the Scottish electorate on the issue of independence from the United Kingdom in the autumn of 2014.

What impacts would a (very probable) "lets get the hell out" vote have on anyone undertaking a Edinburgh - York or Nottingham - Glasgow trip?

I assume you enter the realms of passports having to be produced before a ticket can be purchased?

Current polls suggest the SNP will lose an independence vote hence why they are so keen on slipping in the o called DevoMaX option.

As for passports, do you need a passport to enter the RoI? Why would Scotland be any different? Seriously the SNP policy is very clear, assuming Westminster does not have some bizarre fit of pique and impose border controls themselves then the border will remain open.

Do not be taken in by the alarmist claptrap being spouted by the papers.

In terms of passport/immigration control, probably nothing at all. The terms of independence and the relationship between Scotland and the remainder of the UK will still have to be worked out.

One possibility is that Scotland signs the Schengen Agreement in which case there would be passport controls between Scotland and England and N.I - and then you'd get partitioning of stations and airports into Schengen and non-Schengen areas which is highly unlikely given the amount of inter-dependence between these (currently) two parts of the UK.

Someone might like to comment on international rail-travel regulations but to be absolutely honest, I think if Scotland (or Wales, NI, or even England!) became independent there would be some kind of treaty between the nations giving freedom of movement in excess of what is currently provisioned by similar treaties like Schengen. At minimum I would expect something like the treaty that used to exist between the Nordic countries regarding freedom of movement without password/immigration controls.

But this really is too much speculation given that even if Scotland votes yes, and the Westminster gives the ok, and a whole bunch of other things, there'll still be a huge
amount of politics to work out before any formal data of independence is agreed.

And then there's Scotland's membership of the EU, UN, what happens to the Royal Family and is Scotland a proper republic versus having Queen Elizabeth II as nominal head of state (or King Charles III, or by the time the above have been worked out, King William the IV?)...

...the trains, I guess no change...

t.

Ian

Doesn't matter, SNP will lose. Scots have turned against independence by two to one. That's why the SNP want Devomax so they don't take a shellacking which destroys their raison d'etre.

I still don't see how anyone can consider voting for independence until the SNP (or whoever is in charge of the pro-independence lobby) provide a detailed budget for an independent Scotland. Seriously I've heard the SNP say that they'll maintain all existing social welfare programs as well as introduce new things like a Scottish Defence Force (which is going to be very complicated/expensive for them to do by the by) but yet to hear/see a really detailed breakdown of what that's going to cost and how they're going to pay for it.

If that already exists, mea culpa, and please post a link so I can have a look at it myself.

As for the train unless one side or the other gets really bitter about the whole thing I imagine it will remain pretty much business as usual. I suppose though that there could be a movement by the Scottish government to allow Scotrail to provide more daytime cross border services.

chuckles1066 said:

The Scottish Government intends to hold a referendum of the Scottish electorate on the issue of independence from the United Kingdom in the autumn of 2014.

What impacts would a (very probable) "lets get the hell out" vote have on anyone undertaking a Edinburgh - York or Nottingham - Glasgow trip?

I assume you enter the realms of passports having to be produced before a ticket can be purchased?

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It is not necessary to have a passport to travel between the UK and the Irish Republic. I can see no reason why things would be any different for Scotland and the rest of the UK if full independence came about.

chuckles1066 said:

I assume you enter the realms of passports having to be produced before a ticket can be purchased?

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Why?

You don't have to hold a passport to fly to the Republic of Ireland, due to the long standing Common Travel Area. (I lived in Dublin for two years and never once had to show my passport when travelling to/from the UK.) So I can't see why an independent Scottish Government would want to impose passport controls.

transmanche said:

I can't see why an independent Scottish Government would want to impose passport controls.

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I'm sure they'd have no desire to do such a thing. But if an independent Scotland wished to join the Schengen zone then passport controls would necessarily have to be introduced between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

(Although I believe that full Scottish independence is unlikely in the near future and so this scenario is entirely hypothetical).

This question crops up on here with understandable regularity, but usually it is in the "General Discussion" sub forum (rather than in this NR General Discussion forum).
The most recent was Scottish Independence and might make interesting reading, (particularly as some people may not feel the need to repeat what they have already said on the matter).

transmanche said:

Why?

You don't have to hold a passport to fly to the Republic of Ireland, due to the long standing Common Travel Area. (I lived in Dublin for two years and never once had to show my passport when travelling to/from the UK.) So I can't see why an independent Scottish Government would want to impose passport controls.

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However nowadays when you fly into an Irish airport from the UK you do have to pass through passport control.

Your Wikipedia quote even says

However, the Irish government has imposed immigration controls on people entering the state from the United Kingdom since 1997. These controls have been compulsory for air travellers, selective on sea crossings and occasional for land crossings.

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Squaddie said:

I'm sure they'd have no desire to do such a thing. But if an independent Scotland wished to join the Schengen zone then passport controls would necessarily have to be introduced between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

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Switzerland and Liechtenstein had had a passport free border for a long time but because Switzerland joined Schengen before Liechtenstein, border controls had to be in place in the intervening duration between the two countries joining.

rf_ioliver said:

One possibility is that Scotland signs the Schengen Agreement in which case there would be passport controls between Scotland and England and N.I

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The 1985 Schengen Agreement was then incorporated into the 1997 Amersterdam Treaty and incorporated into European Union Law. A study of the split of Czechoslovakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia and the dissolution of Yugoslavia into the constituent parts which all assumed autonomy under their own nation status is one way to see how European nations have dealt with this problem, be it either in or out of the European Community.

radamfi said:

However nowadays when you fly into an Irish airport from the UK you do have to pass through passport control.

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And the extent of these controls are being asked to show a driving licence or other photo ID (and the Irish Government's list of acceptable ID includes a bus pass or works ID) when passing through Dublin airport. Or at the ferry port, occasionally having an immigration officer ask you your nationality - and if you reply in a vaguely Irish or British accent, you are waved through. I.e. 'immigration controls' only apply to people who 'appear' to be non-Irish or non-British.

chuckles1066 said:

I assume you enter the realms of passports having to be produced before a ticket can be purchased?

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For all the reasons above, it's pretty unlikely that we'd end up with significant border controls. It's much more likely that the UK and Scottish governments would work closely together on immigration policy.

Squaddie said:

But if an independent Scotland wished to join the Schengen zone then passport controls would necessarily have to be introduced between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

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And the Scottish Government would then have to weigh up the various pro and cons of a) joining Schengenland or b) remaining in the Common Travel Area as present.

Guess which one you think they'd choose?

ainsworth74 said:

I still don't see how anyone can consider voting for independence until the SNP (or whoever is in charge of the pro-independence lobby) provide a detailed budget for an independent Scotland. Seriously I've heard the SNP say that they'll maintain all existing social welfare programs as well as introduce new things like a Scottish Defence Force (which is going to be very complicated/expensive for them to do by the by) but yet to hear/see a really detailed breakdown of what that's going to cost and how they're going to pay for it.

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Really not the right forum for this... but the point of Scottish independence is not to make all of those decisions right now, but to ensure that any decisions made in the future come from Scotland, rather than being substantially influenced by our much larger neighbour to the south.

Generally, the figures seem to suggest that Scotland would not be substantially worse or better off in the short term post-independence. Anybody who tries to claim otherwise (in either direction!) is being disingenuous.
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Waverley125 said:

Doesn't matter, SNP will lose. Scots have turned against independence by two to one. That's why the SNP want Devomax so they don't take a shellacking which destroys their raison d'etre.

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Current polls seem to suggest support for independence in the region of 35-45%, with support for the status quo in the region of 45-55%. The figures vary widely depending on who's polling and what question's being asked.

So independence is out - for the moment. But two years is quite a long time in politics, and it's not infeasible that with two years of good campaigning that the scales could tip - though I'll grant it's a bit of a long shot, more's the pity.

But please bear in mind that the SNP really are pushing for full independence, and did not introduce this concept of "devomax," although if that option were on the ballot it would probably win.

matthewmacleod said:

But two years is quite a long time in politics, and it's not infeasible that with two years of good campaigning that the scales could tip - though I'll grant it's a bit of a long shot, more's the pity.

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You're right about this being the wrong forum but...

This year has been a 'highlight' of 'Britishness'. With the jubilee and the Olympics etc etc.

2014 may be a year that strongly 'highlights' 'Scottishness'. With the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow and Scottish identity at the forefront.

As you say 35-45% support independence and that is a very high number.


On to the rail question:
There won't be border controls. People won't need passports. I'd imagine that it would be very similar to now. The big difference would probably be the Scotland-England only portions of the current TOCs would go into a new TOC that would be jointly awarded by the UK and Scottish Governments.

If the amount of Union flags being waved and the large amount of booing of Alex Salmond got at the Olympic medal winners parade in Glasgow last week is anything to go by, the referendum will result in a No vote. Hopefully!