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S8 stock seating

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WinterChief

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A friend of mine sent me the following quote about 2009TS unit 11040, further proving how good Bombardier are at building tube stock:

"The panels with the 4-5 inch holes drilled in for the external door access cocks were in the wrong place. It was not acceptable to repair the one and drill the other, so they the car was disassembled to the point where they could be swapped.

By wrong place, I mean behind the wrong set of seats further down the car."

One train? One train out of 50 odd? And the best we can come up with for the 2009 Stock is that the felt is coming loose in between panels, butterfly cocks in the wrong place (they rectified their own error) and some problems with the doors which have now been mostly resolved.

I judge a company on the basis of it's different contracts. The Vic line upgrade went very well and as with everything in any upgrade we had one or two niggles, its not like the Central Line where a motor fell off and the whole line was shut-down for a few months. There has been barely any disruption to the normal passenger. I used the line when it was run by the 67's nearly everyday and I used it during the upgrade nearly everyday, I was there for the last 67 Stock day and I have been using it post-upgrade nearly everyday. It is far better than it ever was, I rarely have to wait more than 2 minutes for a train, the journey is faster, smoother, cooler and more disabled friendly.

We are quick to slate, but really, nothing can be perfect, but it has been better than the Jubilee and Met upgrades.
 
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TheVicLine

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One train? One train out of 50 odd? And the best we can come up with for the 2009 Stock is that the felt is coming loose in between panels, butterfly cocks in the wrong place (they rectified their own error) and some problems with the doors which have now been mostly resolved.
.

Some problems with the doors was a pretty serious and time consuming failure with the sesitive edges as well as large scale mods to the PEA's and not to mention that the fleet are currently having all their gear boxes replaced at Northumberland Park by Bombardier.
Not been involved with any other fleet introduction so not sure how it usually goes but there were and still are 09TS issues.
 

jon0844

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Just because I pointed out the interior trim being badly fitted, doesn't mean everything else about the trains is perfectly okay - but I wasn't about to make stuff up to support my argument. That and doors failing seems pretty bad, and given people are highlighting other problems, I don't think it was a particularly great introduction.

I am not sure that being better than other new fleets being introduced makes it okay, rather that nobody seems capable of building something that works.

I accept teething problems, but they're usually totally unexpected things that nobody could have foreseen. Making panels fit together, or having doors that won't break when Joe Public get their mits on them, or toilet doors that run on rails without sticking half way and then wedging themselves and so on are NOT things you could go 'Oh well, couldn't see that coming' about.
 

317666

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I'm not slating the Victoria Line upgrade as a whole, I agree it now provides a faster and more frequent service and is quite reliable these days. What I am slating is Litchurch Lane's build quality, nearly every train I've been on that was built there under Bombardier ownership (and that's a fair amount of trains) has had various loose rattly panels, bad ride quality, and had non-working gangway and/or toilet doors.
 

Mojo

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its not like the Central Line where a motor fell off and the whole line was shut-down for a few months.

Hang on, weren't the 1992 Stock built at Brel (ADtranz) Derby, now Bombardier?
 

jon0844

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There are other issues with the Victoria Line, but I doubt they're the fault of Bombardier. Worth mentioning though because, as a passenger, I shouldn't care about who is reponsible, just the overall 'user experience'.

For one; I'd have made the foot lighting by the doors change to red, flash, or go off when the hustle alarm started.. thus making it MUCH clearer from the outside that the doors were closing and not to board.

I'd have also designed the ventilation system not to draw in so much heat that in the summer they just blow really warm air on everyone else. I accept part of the problem was when they were running with the old stock, so regen braking couldn't be used (which cuts down some of the heat) but it still seems like a bad design.

Both of these things might have been down to the original tender, and Bombardier was unable to do anything different, but I am still a little disappointed - along with the fact that they no longer look new (to me). They somehow look like they've been running for years, and aren't far off needing a refresh. I don't know if it's down to the seat coverings or the materials used, but they're really not that old.

That said, they're here now and have to last a while. I hope they can last as long as the ones they replaced!!
 

Nym

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Hang on, weren't the 1992 Stock built at Brel (ADtranz) Derby, now Bombardier?

Yeah, and the eat traction motor brushes like there's no tomorrow, reducing service intervals drastically...

So much so that TfL was considering removing all DC Motored stock including 92 with the NGTS project (Please let it be Siemens)
 

tom1649

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The Underground just won't be the same without the familiar sound of DC motors. :cry:
 

es373

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There are other issues with the Victoria Line, but I doubt they're the fault of Bombardier. Worth mentioning though because, as a passenger, I shouldn't care about who is reponsible, just the overall 'user experience'.

For one; I'd have made the foot lighting by the doors change to red, flash, or go off when the hustle alarm started.. thus making it MUCH clearer from the outside that the doors were closing and not to board.

I'd have also designed the ventilation system not to draw in so much heat that in the summer they just blow really warm air on everyone else. I accept part of the problem was when they were running with the old stock, so regen braking couldn't be used (which cuts down some of the heat) but it still seems like a bad design.

Both of these things might have been down to the original tender, and Bombardier was unable to do anything different, but I am still a little disappointed - along with the fact that they no longer look new (to me). They somehow look like they've been running for years, and aren't far off needing a refresh. I don't know if it's down to the seat coverings or the materials used, but they're really not that old.

That said, they're here now and have to last a while. I hope they can last as long as the ones they replaced!!

Red? I assume that colours used on signals/tail/head shouldnt be used elsewhere. This is why the white lamps on the 379's pan cams are supposedly ever on when facing direction of travel. The system they have is clear ans loud enough on interior and exterior to know the doors are closing, why add to the expense if it already suits the DfT's spec? The flashing door closing lamp is very visable.

HVAC. To cool the air further, the heat has to go somewhere. Heat is a biproduct of air cooling and this heat would make the stations/tunnels hotter increasing chances of infrastructure/component failure.
Again the system used it absolutely fine. In fact i would put my money on the vic being the best line based on performance this year.

You would design the HVAC system? Im interested to see the design youre capable of coming up with. Im genuinely intrigued by this statement.
 

Nym

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So would that be the 72, 73 and 92 stocks?

Yes, but it may have recently been cut back to only cover the 72 and 73 stock, but personally, I believe that this could just be chit chat from the uninformed at the finance departments in TfL or more likely their consultants. The 92 stock is now starting to get very maintenance heavy and by the time the NGTS Project is finishing delivery, the 92 stock will likely be at least 30 years old, not that old in the world of tube stock, but the D stock wasn't that old when it was withdrawn, neither was the 83 stock, because it just wasn't suitable.

The motors on the 92 stock are essentially a an 1870s design, using a motor control design from the 1960s, they really aren't that modern...

Jump on to the 95 stock using induction motors with synchronous full wave AC 3 phase inverters, it just sounds more modern (and it is, significantly)...
 

MCR247

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How come its so old fashioned? I mean the 96ts specs were freezed the year after?
 

jon0844

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Red? I assume that colours used on signals/tail/head shouldnt be used elsewhere.

Nowhere? Not even in the 'footwells' of the vetibules, when a train is stationary?

Okay, on that basis (if true), then flashing white - or even going off completely - would suffice.

The system they have is clear ans loud enough on interior and exterior to know the doors are closing, why add to the expense if it already suits the DfT's spec? The flashing door closing lamp is very visable.

If you're looking the right way, surely? There's only one on each set of doors and if someone is standing in front of it?

I'd have thought that the things you can't miss are those bright lights further down - which spreads out over a large area even if there are people standing there - and would easily give a warning to tell people not to board, especially those who cannot (listening to headphones) or does not (deaf) hear the alarm.

What's more, it's people trying to board the train that are the problem, not so much those getting off (how many people are still trying to force their way off when the doors are closing?) and there's no warning light that I can see visible from the platform.

HVAC. To cool the air further, the heat has to go somewhere. Heat is a biproduct of air cooling and this heat would make the stations/tunnels hotter increasing chances of infrastructure/component failure. Again the system used it absolutely fine. In fact i would put my money on the vic being the best line based on performance this year.

I never mentioned air conditioning, but the heat being blasted out last year when I used the new trains was bad enough that I was almost tempted to wait and see if the next train was the old stock. It made the trains (even when near empty in the day) almost as hot as a Circle line train out in the sun. I'd say that the better idea would be to turn the forced air system off, rather than actually force warm air inside the train!

The older trains weren't that hot, so I don't buy the argument that there's no way to avoid, or reduce, the issue of heat dissipation.

You would design the HVAC system? Im interested to see the design youre capable of coming up with. Im genuinely intrigued by this statement.

Simply turning off the system when it draws in too much heat would be logical to me. Once you've heated up the carriages, how exactly are you supposed to cool them again?
 

WinterChief

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Regarding lights:

The door step lights when illuminated show that the door is open. They go off when the doors are proved closed and locked. As well as the external "yellow lights". Making them flash when closing may have additional benefits so this is a possibility.

Regarding HVAC:

It is scientifically proved that humans loose heat off their skin, the forced air ventilation system dissipates this heat away from the skin allowing the person to loose heat quicker. If you don't have forced air ventilation then you allow the heat to stagnate meaning people will be hotter quicker, increasing the chances dehydration, heat stroke, sickness and dizziness. Regardless of the temperature forced air ventilation is better. When the train looses traction current there are emergency fans to keep the air circulated at a reduced pace. LU are not bothered about the heat of the carriage, they are bothered about the heat of people, all you need is a breeze!

The older trains weren't that hot? They had rheo brake which was dissipating heat through resistors under the motor cars, this was rising and coming into the saloon environment and station platforms. The 67's and the 72's underground are baking hot!! One trip from the depot to Brixton in a 67 in the middle of winter and the train would be boiling! Sod saloon heaters!

Check this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/uk_enl_1251117606/html/1.stm

This was done in 2008 so the 67's, 72's and 92's are all the hottest at the time. And yes 92's do have forced air ventilation and no it isn't configured correctly. 95's and 96's are significantly cooler and they use the forced air ventilation system.
 

jon0844

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My experience varied from what you've written (never felt the old trains were that hot), but I accept what you say regarding the need to have movement of air. That's a valid issue and if it keeps people well, even if sweating loads, then it is the lesser of two evils.

Perhaps the heat last year in the 09TS was because of what someone explained elsewhere, namely the side effect of running along with the old stock. Now they're not, and regen braking can be used, has this seen the ambient temperature fall?

I must admit that they've felt cooler when I've been on them this year (hence why I was clear to state the heat issue as being something I experienced last year).
 

WinterChief

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Yes, the lesser of two evils is a good phrase, but soon technology will advance allowing us to have air con underground which will of course eradicate all this, but for the moment an equivalent of a desk fan to the face will have to do!!

The regen braking can only be used when all the 67's were clear and is only effective if the train is creating a voltage higher than the track. This is most common if a train is pulling out of Oxford Circus and one is arriving (for example).

There will of course be a drop in temperature if were using only regen, but as explained above there are a few situations which need to be in place before the train decides to go into regen mode, the normal is rheo mode. So it's only effective some of the time.
 

317666

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One thing that I noticed about the temperature of 2009 Stock, is that the newer units tend to be cooler than the older ones. For instance, a few months ago I went on 11004 (the newest one) and it was reasonably cool, followed by 11015 (one of the older ones) which was much, much hotter. Perhaps the vents are getting clogged up or something like that, which is preventing as much cool air entering the carriage as there should be?
 

es373

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One thing that I noticed about the temperature of 2009 Stock, is that the newer units tend to be cooler than the older ones. For instance, a few months ago I went on 11004 (the newest one) and it was reasonably cool, followed by 11015 (one of the older ones) which was much, much hotter. Perhaps the vents are getting clogged up or something like that, which is preventing as much cool air entering the carriage as there should be?

Too many variables to take in to account. Did you take an average of temperature in the tunnels/stations? Amount of people inside the saloon which are giving off heat?
Pressure forced ventilation will only pull air in from the outside, the grilles and filters are there to stop you breathing in the tunnel dust.
 

TheVicLine

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Too many variables to take in to account. Did you take an average of temperature in the tunnels/stations? Amount of people inside the saloon which are giving off heat?
Pressure forced ventilation will only pull air in from the outside, the grilles and filters are there to stop you breathing in the tunnel dust.

Thought that LU had taken the PV filters out of 09TS because they kept getting clogged up with tunnel dust, I didn't just say that...
 

es373

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Really, unless they are willing to supply face masks to all punters! I could understand if they changed the frequency in which they change the filters.
 

TheVicLine

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Really, unless they are willing to supply face masks to all punters! I could understand if they changed the frequency in which they change the filters.

They were getting clogged up as the 09TS created different air votexes from the 67TS due to it's different shape. This was moving tunnel dust that had sat on tunnel ledges for years which was then being sucked up into the vent system and blocking the filters, so BTUK took them all out.
As far as I am aware they have never been replaced due to the predicted cost and frequency at which they would need to be changed, this is why the seat backs and window ledges are always so dirty.
 

jon0844

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That perhaps explains why the trains seem to look old way before their time.
 

WinterChief

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They have removed the filters yes, the grills are still there though. They clogged up after one trains shift worth so it wasn't worth keeping them on.
 

TheVicLine

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That perhaps explains why the trains seem to look old way before their time.

Since LU took back over the maintenance of rolling stock cleaning is no longer the priority that it had been under Metronet as the contractual financial penalties for dirty trains disapeared overnight.
 

es373

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They were getting clogged up as the 09TS created different air votexes from the 67TS due to it's different shape. This was moving tunnel dust that had sat on tunnel ledges for years which was then being sucked up into the vent system and blocking the filters, so BTUK took them all out.
As far as I am aware they have never been replaced due to the predicted cost and frequency at which they would need to be changed, this is why the seat backs and window ledges are always so dirty.


Doesnt this pose a health hazard to the travelling public though? Thinking about it i presumed the dust on the window ledges came in through the windows. Interesting.
 
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