Future of Class 313s - facts and fiction

jon0844 · 19 Sep 2012

Given how solid these trains are, I can well believe they'll outlive us all - but what are the actual plans for these trains? Does anyone actually know anything more than the various rumours, or speculation based on what someone would LIKE to see happen to them?

I know that I've talked about the logic of taking the Moorgate route to WGC and Hertford North and moving it over to London Overground. While it hasn't been stated in any official capacity, there have been rumours for some time - which I've heard from a number of different (and unconnected) sources. What's more, it makes sense, especially if it will be left in a virtual state of limbo in the future franchising, unless anyone bidding for the East Coast franchise wants to take on the responsibility, which would seem odd - especially if Virgin won the ECML route!

Anyway, I overhead two drivers on a train yesterday talking about the latest idea being mooted by First (and possibly the ROSCO?) and wondered how likely the proposal is? Until anyone decides whether to replace the entire fleet with something else capable of going into the tunnels, it could make sense.

Apparently the trains will be modified to be in permanent six car formation, and the joining cabs will be opened up to allow passenger access. What's more, they'll have at least one (accessible) toilet fitted - and a total refurbishment. I am also assuming, although it wasn't said and I didn't join in the conversation, that there would be other mechanical modifications to ensure they can run safely for many more years to come.

I'm hoping this would be far bigger than what Southern did, so if they'd get a toilet or two, why not add air conditioning and all new seating (2+2 or something similar to the S-stock?), information screens etc?

Finally, as an additional question from me; How similar are the Class 315s? If they eventually go from the West Anglia routes, could they be modified and converted to run on the route to Moorgate to bulk up stock?

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phil281 · 19 Sep 2012

I think I read somthing somewhere that they trialled a LOROL 378 on that line recently.

DXMachina · 19 Sep 2012

You read it on here - and it was totally uncorroborated

Searle · 19 Sep 2012

Oooh, a toilet would be nice, I'll look forward to it! :P Am hoping you're right, they're sturdy and safe, but I feel like a refurb would be welcome

317666 · 19 Sep 2012

The 315s don't have third-rail pickups so would be unable to run down to Moorgate, and I haven't the foggiest how easy they would be to fit. I hope they leave the interior on the 313s alone though as I do quite like the FCC ones, but I'd rather they were refurbished than replaced as they're great units.

DXMachina · 19 Sep 2012

I think the traction equipment on both 313s and 315s runs on DC (AC power via transformer and rectifiers) so with an inter-unit powerline (as fitted within vehicles on some 313s) a 315 could possibly work in multiple with a 313 on DC, but not alone.

But this late in the game they're hardly going to start redesigning the electric systems on them. Costs would be too high for too short a lifetime

mbonwick · 19 Sep 2012

Funny, I thought 313s were starting to suffer from corrosion issues?

class156 · 19 Sep 2012

317666 said:
The 315s don't have third-rail pickups so would be unable to run down to Moorgate, and I haven't the foggiest how easy they would be to fit. I hope they leave the interior on the 313s alone though as I do quite like the FCC ones, but I'd rather they were refurbished than replaced as they're great units.

All PEP EMU's share the same bodyshell so there shouldn't be any reason for them not being able to physically fit down the tunnels but converting 315's to third rail may prove to be costly.

Manchester77 · 19 Sep 2012

i hope LO don't take over that route because they'd probably remove all the NSE stuff:/ :-x

Could 313s be cascaded to live out the rest of their days as a stop gap for new electric trains say on the wales routes?

phil281 · 19 Sep 2012

DXMachina said:
You read it on here - and it was totally uncorroborated

Hmm i'm sure I saw a picture though?

jon0844 · 19 Sep 2012

The issue seems to be that there are no plans to replace them. So no way to cascade them anywhere else.

And if they're going to stay, something will have to be done to them beyond new seat covers and vinyl flooring.

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jopsuk · 19 Sep 2012

the 315s are pretty much rotting, are they not?

To convert 315s nontheless would require much more than just shoegear- the 313s are designed so that the traction bus power line that connects the motor cars to the pantograph is completely disconnected under DC power with each car being powered independently, as when introduced (at the very least) the Moorgate tunnels still ran to the then LU rules (not sure if they're still in force?) which forbade traction current to pass between carriages.

DXMachina · 19 Sep 2012

Phil281 - the earliest reference to a 378 going down to Moorgate was from (oh!) ^ him (jonmorris0844) on 6th Aug 2011, he said no photos were available and it was a night time test run

Jon ? anything you;re not telling us?

Class377/5 · 19 Sep 2012

phil281 said:
I think I read somthing somewhere that they trialled a LOROL 378 on that line recently.

phil281 said:
Hmm i'm sure I saw a picture though?

DXMachina said:
You read it on here - and it was totally uncorroborated

A 378 was supposed to have run down to Moorgate during the 378 introduction a few years ago. There's never been a picture of a unit down there. In fact no-one who actually would know in work knows anything about it. Doubt we ever will know for sure but it seems doubtful.

There has been a pictures of a 378 on the GN as some have been to Hornsey for tyre turning.

jonmorris0844 said:
Given how solid these trains are, I can well believe they'll outlive us all - but what are the actual plans for these trains? Does anyone actually know anything more than the various rumours, or speculation based on what someone would LIKE to see happen to them?

I know that I've talked about the logic of taking the Moorgate route to WGC and Hertford North and moving it over to London Overground. While it hasn't been stated in any official capacity, there have been rumours for some time - which I've heard from a number of different (and unconnected) sources. What's more, it makes sense, especially if it will be left in a virtual state of limbo in the future franchising, unless anyone bidding for the East Coast franchise wants to take on the responsibility, which would seem odd - especially if Virgin won the ECML route!

Anyway, I overhead two drivers on a train yesterday talking about the latest idea being mooted by First (and possibly the ROSCO?) and wondered how likely the proposal is? Until anyone decides whether to replace the entire fleet with something else capable of going into the tunnels, it could make sense.

Apparently the trains will be modified to be in permanent six car formation, and the joining cabs will be opened up to allow passenger access. What's more, they'll have at least one (accessible) toilet fitted - and a total refurbishment. I am also assuming, although it wasn't said and I didn't join in the conversation, that there would be other mechanical modifications to ensure they can run safely for many more years to come.

I'm hoping this would be far bigger than what Southern did, so if they'd get a toilet or two, why not add air conditioning and all new seating (2+2 or something similar to the S-stock?), information screens etc?

Finally, as an additional question from me; How similar are the Class 315s? If they eventually go from the West Anglia routes, could they be modified and converted to run on the route to Moorgate to bulk up stock?

There is some work being done on replacing the 313's but if its gonna happen (if at all, plenty of time for things to change) after 2020.

D365 · 19 Sep 2012

Manchester77 said:
i hope LO don't take over that route because they'd probably remove all the NSE stuff

It's like a time warp going down there

Anyway, if the 378 fits down there, we're sorted. I think a combined order for GN and Merseyrail (permanent six-car, 75-90mph, 2+2 seating) would do both well. However, I doubt that will be the case with the lack of joined-up thinking...

Bald Rick · 19 Sep 2012

Facts:

The Moorgate services will form part of the new TSGN franchise that runs until at least 2020.

The franchise bidders can choose which rolling stock to use, but in the absence of any order to replace the 313s, they will be in use until at least 2015, by which time they will be approachng their 40th birthday.

Refurbishment and fixing into 6 coach units by removing the inboard cabs is a relatively cheap way of upping capacity.

Probables:

Post 2018, Welywn will see fewer Moorgate services, Hertford branch will see more; the fleet size required will remain broadly the same. (Welwyn will see additional services going via the Thameslink route)

All signalling on the ECML and Hertford loop south of Peterboro will be replaced with ETCS L2 (and signals removed) by 2019. So the 313s will need retrofitting (paid for by the new franchise winner and factored into their bids), or the entire fleet replaced with brand new stock (additional lease costs for the franchise life paid for by the new franchise winner and factored into their bids). If the form book is followed you can expect the bidders to come up with different answers here.

My bet:

Do the refurb, fix to 6 cars, add ETCS L2 and AC motors (for regen braking and lower maintenance) at the same time, leave replacement to the franchise after next. Which may be London specified.

LNW-GW Joint · 19 Sep 2012

If they stay on the GN they (like everything else on the route) will have to be fitted with ETCS by 2018.
I doubt if it would be worth fitting PEP-type units, even if there is space in the cabs, because of their limited life expectancy.
They could still work elsewhere.

anthony263 · 19 Sep 2012

There has been a rumour going around of Southerns class 313's being casaded to work some routes on the Cardiff Valley Lines network alongside the class 315's for a few years before brand new units are ordered.

jon0844 · 19 Sep 2012

DXMachina said:
Phil281 - the earliest reference to a 378 going down to Moorgate was from (oh!) ^ him (jonmorris0844) on 6th Aug 2011, he said no photos were available and it was a night time test run

Jon ? anything you;re not telling us?

I can't say who told me but can say it was someone working for FCC. And I am not the only one who has said that one was sent down there late one night/early morning. I don't know if there were photos or not, but I certainly didn't get to see any.

I can't say it is definitely true, but I have no reason to believe I was deliberately lied to. In fact, the information was volunteered to me without me ever asking - by email.

And it was first talked about a long time before August 2011. In any case, even if they supposedly do fit the fact is that there's no talk of ordering new stock as yet. The old trains might still stay in any new franchise if a bidder believes it to be the best option.

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D365 · 19 Sep 2012

No reason for Jon to lie, unless he's a worshipper of Bombardier (or similar). I find it strange that WGC gets 4tph into Thameslink whilst there is oppurtunity for capacity at Moorgate. If Peterborough/Cambridge get 2tph each, what train/service make up the 2+tph needed on each? And if Cambridge Science Park (Chesterton) is opened, will Thameslink serve it?

Sorry for going off topic, I guess the final decisions on these, and the future of the 313s, is up to the new TOC. Cascading the 313s and 315s to Wales seems good to me!

IanXC · 19 Sep 2012

Bald Rick said:
Facts:

The Moorgate services will form part of the new TSGN franchise that runs until at least 2020.

Considering the East Coast Franchise Consultation (closed 18/9/12) and the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern Franchise Consultation (closed 14/9/12) both asked respondents whether the non Thameslink Kings Cross and Moorgate services should be included in the EC or TSGN franchises going forward I'm not sure its really a fact. Unless theres a source of course?

jon0844 · 19 Sep 2012

DAB_Move said:
No reason for Jon to lie, unless he's a worshipper of Bombardier (or similar).

I think anyone that searches my name and Bombardier will find that I'm not one of their biggest fans.

However, I do like the 378s (and indeed the S Stock) so any train that is similar in design would suit me fine for services to Moorgate - even though I no longer commute there daily.

DAB_Move said:
I find it strange that WGC gets 4tph into Thameslink whilst there is oppurtunity for capacity at Moorgate. If Peterborough/Cambridge get 2tph each, what train/service make up the 2+tph needed on each? And if Cambridge Science Park (Chesterton) is opened, will Thameslink serve it?

There are stations that are limited to 6-car trains, so they could lose a pretty regular service if services to Moorgate are cut back on the WGC line in favour of trains to go through the core (which will be a minimum of 8-car). Thus, many Thameslink trains may not be able to stop. Even Hatfield which is a very busy station, isn't seeing platforms extended to 12-car, even during the near station site rebuild that starts later this year. So Hatfield would be potentially down to just 2tph instead of 4tph as now (or more in the peaks).

When FCC started in 2006, the plan was to work with TfL to increase the service frequency of the slows to every 15 minutes - and run trains later into Moorgate. Who knows, maybe we'd have seen weekend services again (Old Street could certainly do with a Saturday service at the very least).

Now it seems as if the route is no longer a high priority to anyone, so it may be left with old stock, a reduced service frequency (although I guess if more trains came via Hertford North, you could still change at FPK fairly painlessly) and little chance of any major upgrade work. Given the connection at Highbury & Islington to London Overground, it's a line that I think is pretty valuable.

Bald Rick · 19 Sep 2012

jonmorris0844 said:
There are stations that are limited to 6-car trains, so they could lose a pretty regular service if services to Moorgate are cut back on the WGC line in favour of trains to go through the core (which will be a minimum of 8-car). Thus, many Thameslink trains may not be able to stop. Even Hatfield which is a very busy station, isn't seeing platforms extended to 12-car, even during the near station site rebuild that starts later this year. So Hatfield would be potentially down to just 2tph instead of 4tph as now (or more in the peaks).

When FCC started in 2006, the plan was to work with TfL to increase the service frequency of the slows to every 15 minutes - and run trains later into Moorgate. Who knows, maybe we'd have seen weekend services again (Old Street could certainly do with a Saturday service at the very least).

Now it seems as if the route is no longer a high priority to anyone, so it may be left with old stock, a reduced service frequency (although I guess if more trains came via Hertford North, you could still change at FPK fairly painlessly) and little chance of any major upgrade work. Given the connection at Highbury & Islington to London Overground, it's a line that I think is pretty valuable.

Half the Thameslink trains on the ECML will be 8 car, so most places won't lose out, especially Hatfield

Pretty good chance of later weekday and all weekend services (at least Saturday) down to Moorgate; there's certainly a good case for it with the emergence of the Silicon roundabout and much better interchange opportunities at H&I.

RichmondCommu · 20 Sep 2012

Manchester77 said:
i hope LO don't take over that route because they'd probably remove all the NSE stuff:/ :-x

Anybody would think the line is a working museum :roll:

DXMachina · 20 Sep 2012

RichmondCommu said:
Anybody would think the line is a working museum :roll:

If you look at the technology used by most railways under London that might not be too inaccurate an idea

RichmondCommu · 20 Sep 2012

DXMachina said:
If you look at the technology used by most railways under London that might not be too inaccurate an idea

Given that I use the Waterloo and City everyday that's not something that I like to think about too much!

es373 · 20 Sep 2012

DXMachina said:
If you look at the technology used by most railways under London that might not be too inaccurate an idea

As in what tech are we talking? Train stops etc? AWS/TWPS wouldn't work without a massive overhaul of signalling sections on LU. However, the vic and joob signalling systems are some of the most advanced in the world.

Aictos · 20 Sep 2012

One thing no one has picked up on is the fact that the platforms between Drayton Park and Moorgate are restricted to 6 car operation and cannot be extended without major work in the tunnels.

In fact it's easier to extend Finsbury Park to Hatfield to 8 car operation so I doubt the 4 car 315s would even be considered as it would mean a decrease in seating capacity which would not be popular at all!!!

Regards to the proposed 313 refurbishment, it's just a rumour from the rumour mill - that's all, personally I can't see it happening.

I think a more realistic approach would be to operate the 313s until the successor to Greater Thameslink Southern starts operations, then it might be wise to look at replacing the fleet with a modern EMU fleet.

A-driver · 20 Sep 2012

The rumours about 313s being fixed 6 car with a loo in the intermediate cab have been going round drivers and managers for a while and seem fairly likely.

As for the NCL in the new franchises, I don't think that it has been decided for sure yet along with the Lynn line and Cambridge stoppers which won't go through the core but when I spoke to Neal lawson about it a few months back he said any rumours of TfL taking the moorgates are just rumours-and that he only ever hears them from drivers. He reckons Boris may try and get the line but can't see him ever taking complete control over it. He reckons its more likely east coast will get the moorgates, Cambridge stoppers, Lynn's and fast peterbourghs as a suburban branch of their franchise. As I have said before-TfL want to take on the dfts role with inner m25 services but that dosnt mean lorol taking over them. It means other operators running them to TfL specifications, not dft specifications. This is similar to what happens in places like Birmingham and Manchester.

jon0844 · 20 Sep 2012

HLE 13 said:
One thing no one has picked up on is the fact that the platforms between Drayton Park and Moorgate are restricted to 6 car operation and cannot be extended without major work in the tunnels.

I wasn't suggesting they extend the platforms but modify the 315s (if they could be modified) to become 3, or using multiple sets to become 6.

A-driver said:
As for the NCL in the new franchises, I don't think that it has been decided for sure yet along with the Lynn line and Cambridge stoppers which won't go through the core but when I spoke to Neal lawson about it a few months back he said any rumours of TfL taking the moorgates are just rumours-and that he only ever hears them from drivers. He reckons Boris may try and get the line but can't see him ever taking complete control over it. He reckons its more likely east coast will get the moorgates, Cambridge stoppers, Lynn's and fast peterbourghs as a suburban branch of their franchise. As I have said before-TfL want to take on the dfts role with inner m25 services but that dosnt mean lorol taking over them. It means other operators running them to TfL specifications, not dft specifications. This is similar to what happens in places like Birmingham and Manchester.

FCC (and possibly even Wagn) had been talking with TfL for some time about the trains (as I've said many times, there was an intention to increase the service frequency to allow a 'turn up and go' style service expected). TfL would have been funding a lot of this (hence, perhaps, why nothing has ever happened beyond FCC receiving some more trains from Silverlink). Whether they're branded LO or not doesn't really matter, if they're run in the same way.

It must make more sense for TfL to manage things than whoever takes over an Inter-City franchise running these almost as a token gesture (as I fear, and I'm sure drivers like yourself would fear would happen). I can see trains to Cambridge/Kings Lynn and Peterborough perhaps, but all station stoppers to Moorgate?

Another option might be to cut back on the WGC trains, making people take a faster train to Finsbury Park and change, but that introduces problems when the trains from WGC started way back and could be very busy - or trains arriving at FPK full to standing. That and people not wanting to change trains unnecessarily. You'd then need to up the frequency on the Hertford Loop, to keep the same frequency (or higher) from Alexandra Palace to MOG - but what happens during disruption if any trains need to divert using the loop? There's not that much capacity there (unless that will drastically increase with the new signalling?).

Unless TfL gets involved, I can see whatever happens to the route being the cheapest and easiest option.. leaving the line to just fall apart.

Future of Class 313s - facts and fiction

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