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Aspirations for TPE at Rotherham from 2014?

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MidnightFlyer

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My source is Today's Railways UK, apparently South Yorkshire PTE are really pushing for it to be included as a standard stop in the new franchise from April 2015.
 
johnnychips

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MattE2010 said:
My source is Today's Railways UK, apparently South Yorkshire PTE are really pushing for it to be included as a standard stop in the new franchise from April 2015.
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Thanks Matt. Personally I'd be a bit peed off with adding another stop to my Manchester airport journey. Surely it would add at least five minutes. I know its only one tph each way, but would the Holmes Chord cope; and what about the tram/train thing?
 
tbtc

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I'd like to see it, but the single track Holmes Chord is a real bottle neck for services between Meadowhall and Rotherham (plus the two flat junctions at either end of the Rotherham loop).

I can't see space for additional trains *and* the tram-train "trial", but I'd love to be proved wrong!

As I said on the other thread, it's a big place to have such a poor rail service
 
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IanXC

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I'm not entirely sure this will be possible, current services, and currently proposed services seem to have the route pretty busy. I think something else would have to be removed to allow a TPE via Rotherham Central.

2tph to Doncaster
1tph to Leeds
1tph to Wakefield
3tph Tram-Train
(plus a few Sheffield-York services)

So thats already 7+ trains per hour - I'm not sure whether any more could be squeezed in?
 
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Oh no, people in Rotherham might actually be able to travel outside of their own town, perish the thought!

If the likes of Widnes and Chesterfield can get served on the Liverpool to Norwich route then Rotherham would surely deserve a stop on the MIA to CLE service.
 
johnnychips

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Chapeltom. They can travel; they just have to change trains. And for half the population of Rotherham, I would have thought Meadowhall was equally convenient. It's not just a matter of putting an extra stop in (as they used to/still do at Chinley down your end) but changing the route over slower and inconvenient infrastructure.
 
David

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I don't understand the logic for TPE to call at Rotherham as well. It will add 2 conflicting moves an hour (1 at Holmes Jn and 1 at Aldwarke Jn) on what is already a busy stretch of line.

Also, heading to Sheffield/Manchester, there is already a service which calls at Rotherham and Meadowhall just ahead of the TPE service, and 1 that leaves 3 minutes behind the Eastbound TPE service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Chapeltom said:
If the likes of Widnes and Chesterfield can get served on the Liverpool to Norwich route then Rotherham would surely deserve a stop on the MIA to CLE service.
Click to expand...

With Widnes and Chesterfield being included as calls on the Liverpool - Norwich service, those stations are already on the route. IE the train does not have to be diverted to call at those stations.
 
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If more trains at Rotherham are really needed then it makes more sense for Bridlington - Sheffield Northern trains to call. If TPE call at Rotherham then it should be considered false advertising to call it "Express"!
Chapeltom said:
If the likes of Widnes and Chesterfield can get served on the Liverpool to Norwich route then Rotherham would surely deserve a stop on the MIA to CLE service.
Click to expand...
Widnes and Chesterfield have platforms on the main line though. They're not backwaters on a slow loop requiring two flat junctions to be negotiated.

I am sure XC will be protesting against this as it would decrease the reliability, as all eastbound trains calling at Rotherham conflict with westbound trains at two locations! And that's in addition to conflicts at Swinton!

When the re-modelling took place, the decision was taken for Rotherham to be a backwater. That decision should only be reversed if there are major infrastructure changes to avoid conflicting moves. And, let's face it, that won't happen!
 
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Chapeltom

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johnnychips said:
Chapeltom. They can travel; they just have to change trains. And for half the population of Rotherham, I would have thought Meadowhall was equally convenient. It's not just a matter of putting an extra stop in (as they used to/still do at Chinley down your end) but changing the route over slower and inconvenient infrastructure.
Click to expand...

I can see that. It would probably make a slow-ish route, slower!
 
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Chapeltom

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yorkie said:
If more trains at Rotherham are really needed then it makes more sense for Bridlington - Sheffield Northern trains to call. If TPE call at Rotherham then it should be considered false advertising to call it "Express"!

Widnes and Chesterfield have platforms on the main line though. They're not backwaters on a slow loop requiring two flat junctions to be negotiated.

I am sure XC will be protesting against this as it would decrease the reliability, as all eastbound trains calling at Rotherham conflict with westbound trains at two locations! And that's in addition to conflicts at Swinton!

When the re-modelling took place, the decision was taken for Rotherham to be a backwater. That decision should only be reversed if there are major infrastructure changes to avoid conflicting moves. And, let's face it, that won't happen!
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I am aware of the fact Widnes and Chesterfield are on the main-line. But yes I agree the chances of Rotherham getting a stop on TPE are remote to nil, it probably isn't a great hardship for people of Rotherham to get a travel to Meadowhall/Donny and change there anyway.
 
tbtc

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IanXC said:
I'm not entirely sure this will be possible, current services, and currently proposed services seem to have the route pretty busy. I think something else would have to be removed to allow a TPE via Rotherham Central.

2tph to Doncaster
1tph to Leeds
1tph to Wakefield
3tph Tram-Train
(plus a few Sheffield-York services)

So thats already 7+ trains per hour - I'm not sure whether any more could be squeezed in?
Click to expand...

The current service is

Northbound:
Hourly to Leeds
Hourly to Adwick via Doncaster
Hourly to Scunthorpe via Doncaster

Southbound:
Hourly to Lincoln via Sheffield
Two trains an hour to Sheffield

Not sure where your Wakefield terminator comes from?

Chapeltom said:
Oh no, people in Rotherham might actually be able to travel outside of their own town, perish the thought!

If the likes of Widnes and Chesterfield can get served on the Liverpool to Norwich route then Rotherham would surely deserve a stop on the MIA to CLE service.
Click to expand...

The difference is that you don't need to divert off the main line along a single track chord to serve Widnes or Chesterfield.

A better benchmark for Rotherham may be Gloucester (where the longer distance services don't take the time penalty of diverting off the main line, and people are forced to change at Cheltenham).

Or Northampton (a branch off the main line that most longer distance trains ignore).

Or maybe Weston Super Mare etc.

There's basically no penalty for stopping at places like Chesterfield and Widnes
 
johnnychips

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caliwag said:
Better just reopen masboro' peeps!
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Probably you're joking, but if so it would be like a 'Parkway' idea as it's about a kilometre from the centre, but in that case, use Meadowhall!

Also for travellers to Scunny and Cleethorpes, cross-platform interchange is usual at Doncaster; and for Manchester it's the same platform at Meadowhall.
 
johnnychips

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tbtc said:
Totally agreed - it was a much better location for a station - more so now the centre of Rotherham has moved away from the area around Rotherham Central (to Parkgate etc)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure on the timeline on this, but Rotherham Central was opened because 'Rotherham' (Masborough) didn't serve the town centre. Either before this or after, the opening of Meadowhall really kicked the shops of Rotherham centre in the nuts to a much greater extent than Sheffield and Doncaster.

Parkgate (an out-of town retail park in Rotherham to any non-Yorkshire people reading this with puzzlement) doesn't help the centre either. Masborough isn't near Parkgate, so I don't see its reopening to be any use; then there's the tram/train proposal which seems to be off and on which will serve Central and Parkgate.

Sorry if this post is confused, but so is the transport and retail planning around here!
 
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tbtc said:
The current service is

Northbound:
Hourly to Leeds
Hourly to Adwick via Doncaster
Hourly to Scunthorpe via Doncaster

Southbound:
Hourly to Lincoln via Sheffield
Two trains an hour to Sheffield

Not sure where your Wakefield terminator comes from?
Click to expand...

Oops yes you are absolutely right. I misread a source.

Still 6+ tph though.
 
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Hmm can't see that happening, the Rotheram loop is tediously slow at best. At the moment it improves capactiy as TPE can overtake slow northern trains there, if this happens they wont be able to anymore. Only way it could happen is to 4 track, Aldwarke Jnc (i think thats the right one) to Swinton to diverge Leeds and Doncaster traffic.7
Must be fairly cheap to reopen Masborough for 1TPH, only needs two small platforms. Can't imagine the effect on existing capcity would be that bad.

Or we could have two TPE trains per hour ;)
 
johnnychips

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YorkshireBear said:
Must be fairly cheap to reopen Masborough for 1TPH, only needs two small platforms.
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Why bother? It's not convenient for the centre; buses from Rotherham to Masborough go on to Meadowhall anyway (X78); and you would have to build a car park. Not cheap and not necessary. That's before you've slowed the TPE trains down and added a stop: they usually get up a good speed between Swinton and Meadowhall.
 
tbtc

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johnnychips said:
I'm not sure on the timeline on this, but Rotherham Central was opened because 'Rotherham' (Masborough) didn't serve the town centre. Either before or after, the opening of Meadowhall really kicked the shops of Rotherham centre in the nuts to a much greater extent than Sheffield and Doncaster.

Parkgate (an out-of town retail park in Rotherham to any non-Yorkshire people reading this with puzzlement) doesn't help the centre either. Masborough isn't near Parkgate, so I don't see its reopening to be any use; then there's the tram/train proposal which seems to be off and on which will serve Central and Parkgate.

Sorry if this post is confused, but so is the transport and retail planning around here!
Click to expand...

Yeah - for the benefit of any "out of towners", the Rotherham station on the main Sheffield - Doncaster/Leeds line (Masborough) was closed to make way for a station on a loop through the town centre...

...then the centre of Rotherham started closing down (with most businesses relocating to the "retail park" at Parkgate or the indoor "mall" at Meadowhall), so the town centre that is nearby Rotherham Central is weak. Most of the chain shops have moved out - alongside the charity shops/ amusement arcades etc are a handful of token attempts to breathe life into the town - a Jamie Oliver shop, a couple of "Mary Portas" shops...

...the council's hopes on regeneration seem to hinge on handing over a large part of the centre to Tesco to build on - even the council buildings have moved away from the centre (to a new place by the new Rotherham United "New York Stadium" football ground).

So my ideal solution would be a new four platform main line station near Parkgate (handy for Rawmarsh etc too) with an extended tram train from Meadowhall South to Rotherham Central and Parkgate where it'd connect with main line trains.

As far as TPE serving Rotherham goes, you'd struggle to get anything else through the Holmes Chord each hour (given the conflicting movements that Yorkie mentioned). So, would a TPE service be at the expense of the Dearne Valley service to Leeds or at the expense of one of the slow Northern trains to Doncaster? Would the TPE service have to serve Swinton (etc) to make up for the lost links?
 
David

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johnnychips said:
Why bother? It's not convenient for the centre; buses from Rotherham to Masborough go on to Meadowhall anyway (X78); and you would have to build a car park. Not cheap and not necessary. That's before you've slowed the TPE trains down and added a stop: they usually get up a good speed between Swinton and Meadowhall.
Click to expand...

There is a 50mph there anyway because of the curve at Masborough, plus IIRC, there isn't a lot of room to build a car park anyway.
 
johnnychips

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David said:
There is a 50mph there anyway because of the curve at Masborough, plus IIRC, there isn't a lot of room to build a car park anyway.
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Ironically, the main reason for TPEs being delayed into Meadowhall is that they're waiting for delayed Northern trains to exit/enter the Holmes Chord. So if this proposal went ahead they'd just be stuck behind them instead.
 
David

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Usually though, the TPE is running slightly early, hence why they get checked there. ;)
 
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Not always the case twice the other week got stopped at Masborough for a northern on and off Holmes so ended up going from on time to 10 late at Sheffield on TPE services which then ends up stuck behind stopper to Manchester
 
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tbtc said:
I can't see space for additional trains *and* the tram-train "trial", but I'd love to be proved wrong!
Click to expand...

The tram-train will go to Meadowhall on it's way between Sheffield and Rotherham, so maybe Meadowhall would lose it's TPE service in favour of Rotherham.
 
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Have to say, my comment was rather tongue in cheek, as I recall the Peak hauled XCs stopping at Masboro' and it always seemed a busy place.

However in reading other comments and how the town is changing, it seems reasonable to stop some TPEs there...a kilometre from town is certainly not going to kill anyone, and is that a k. from housing, WH Smiths/Boots or what? (apologies never been there).

In York I live about a kilometre from the station and it just seems a doddle. I'm glad I don't live in Durham or Peterboro'...at least I don't need to negotiate an urban relief road. It is time all this rubbish of pedestrian/traffic conflict is sorted once and for all.

Sorry a rant, but urban planners have got it totally totally wrong for too long!
 
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jcollins said:
The tram-train will go to Meadowhall on it's way between Sheffield and Rotherham, so maybe Meadowhall would lose it's TPE service in favour of Rotherham.
Click to expand...

Removing the Meadowhall stop from TPE doesn't really solve the capacity problems at the various junctions to access Rotherham.
 
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