George Osborne in first class with standard ticket?

Tibbs · 19 Oct 2012

jcollins said:
Seems fairly clear now?
No. There's now a new claim from an unnamed Virgin Trains spokesperson that Ramesh Chhabra originally claimed she was a police officer accompanying George and didn't need a ticket, to try and get away with only having one First Class ticket, which sounds worst than the original accusation.

Now, impersonating a Police Officer IS a crime!

RailUK Forums

jon0844 · 19 Oct 2012

Realfish said:
There's now a new claim from an unnamed Virgin Trains spokesperson that Ramesh Chhabra originally claimed she was a police officer accompanying George and didn't need a ticket, to try and get away with only having one First Class ticket, which sounds worst than the original accusation.

That is quite serious, but such an allegation really ought to be attributed to a real person or else it's quite easy to see how all sorts of things can be made up.

I'm not saying it's not true, but without seeing this from an official Virgin Trains source (e.g. website, official Twitter/Facebook account or email) I'd be careful to spread something that could be considered as libel.

Not that I think the Government would risk even more negative publicity for suing anyone for spreading lies, but you never know.

GarethW · 19 Oct 2012

Bring back the Ministerial limos.

tsr · 19 Oct 2012

jcollins said:
There's now a new claim from an unnamed Virgin Trains spokesperson that Ramesh Chhabra originally claimed she was a police officer accompanying George and didn't need a ticket, to try and get away with only having one First Class ticket, which sounds worst than the original accusation.

So that's an allegation by a member of TOC staff that a criminal offence has been committed, as far as I can see. What's more, not only is that allegation purported to be from an official Virgin staff, but it relates to someone who was acting in the presence of and on behalf of George Osborne, and who should have been prevented by him from acting that way... if indeed this is what happened.

Do you have a source for this?

In addition, it was the responsibility of George Osborne to have a ticket. I may be wrong, but I doubt an aide has it written into any legal contract that they have to provide a valid and correct rail ticket for him for each rail journey that he makes. He should have asked to purchase his ticket (or his aide should have asked to purchase hers), rather than one of them refusing to pay (if they did) when asked to do so. Surely if anyone has denied an opportunity to pay for the ticket they require, they should be dealt with as having no ticket?

andykn · 19 Oct 2012

Do we know yet if Osborne had a flexible 2nd class fare with reservations for the earlier train or an advance booked train only ticket for an earlier train?

If he had an advance for an earlier train wasn't he committing an offence getting the next one without getting another ticket first?

jon0844 · 19 Oct 2012

Didn't they have standard open tickets with reservations for another service? That would mean they did have tickets, but not for first class.

It also means that if they were originally going to sit in standard, all the nonsense about not wishing to mix with the 'plebs' in standard (as worded by countless people) was totally incorrect. The original Granada/ITV News reporter worded it to sound like they couldn't possibly sit in standard, as in it was beneath them, yet it seems far more logical that there simply wasn't room - or they wanted a table (or maybe a window?!).

By all means knock politicians or their dumb aides when it's deserved, but I fear people are now trying to make things up to keep the story going, especially as the real story appears to be totally uninteresting and far from controversial - with the TM doing his job and carrying on.

Now, there's a good chance that given how many people seem to detest George Osborne, there might well be a chance that someone might seek to make stuff up to try and profit - like selling an exclusive interview to the press? The trains might have CCTV (I wonder if Virgin will now obtain the photos and provide them to the press?) but of course they don't record sound.

Now if they had advance tickets and travelled on a different train, then they've done what plenty of other people seem to do (and assume is okay). But unless George Osborne is now planning to join this forum and moan, and then demand his money back and write to the Daily Mail and Watchdog, I still don't see a major controversy!

Finally, there's always the other option; wait and see what he has to say on the matter!

CallySleeper · 19 Oct 2012

RYS said:
Well Andrew Mitchell has just resigned over the "plebs" incident, no doubt timed to take the pressure off Osborne over this. The Osborne thing is rapdily moving down the page on the news sites. Funny to see how these things work.

I'm yet to be convinced the timing of both events isn't coincidental: while the resignation, yes can be timed, I don't believe the Osborne incident was staged or in any other way timed to coincide. Or that Mitchell knew to wait for his story to break to take the pressure of Osborne.

I find this all quite humorous in that the attitude of Osborne is so incredibly typical!!

tbtc · 19 Oct 2012

12CSVT said:
One point regarding the Cherie Blair case was that the ticket inspector involved was portrayed as some sort of 'Hitler' by some elements of the tabloid gutter press. The following day's S*n not only named the inspector (who had acted correctly), but also had a close up picture of him on the front page.

Hopefully the TM in the George Osbourne case won't be subjected to such disgraceful treatment.

table38 said:
Funnily enough, a similar story about a Labour MP back in 2011 reported being abusive to a member of Hull Trains staff didn't make it into the papers at all.

As long as people are even handed, I can't complain. What's depressing is to see people base their opinion on whether it's someone from "our side' or "their side" who isn't paying for the right ticket.

I'm certainly not a big fan of Osbourne, just trying to be even handed

Buttsy · 19 Oct 2012

GarethW said:
Bring back the Ministerial limos.

Nah, if anything this has shown politicians that fares are too high for a sensible public transport system.
The only thing I can ascertain at present is that they were a bit miffed about the cost of the upgrade.

table38 · 19 Oct 2012

Seems now to be a complete non-story by someone who wasn't even sat in the same carriage.

Treasury spokesman claims:

The Chancellor got a different train than planned due to diary change following a series of meetings in his constituency. As he had no seat reservation on the new train which was crowded, he decided to upgrade and obviously intended and was happy to pay. An aide sought out the train manager and paid the ticket upgrade.

Virgin Trains statement:

Rt Hon George Osborne, Chancellor, was travelling on Virgin Trains 15:11 Wilmslow to London Euston service this afternoon (19 October).

The Chancellor, who was travelling in First Class accommodation, held a Standard Class ticket. As soon as the train left Wilmslow an aide went to find the Train Manager to explain the situation and arrange to pay for an upgrade. It was agreed that the Chancellor would remain in First Class and an amount of £189.50 was paid by the aide to cover the upgrade for Mr Osborne and his PA. The situation was dealt with amicably between the Train Manager and George Osbornes aide. At no time was there a disagreement or a refusal to pay for the upgrade. Nor was there any discussion between the Train Manager and Mr Osborne.

HSTEd · 19 Oct 2012

ATWalex101 said:
Why didnt he just buy a first class ticket in the first place, if he thinks that the guards are not going to check his tickets then he needs his head looking at

Probably because they are only mere 'plebs'

tbtc · 19 Oct 2012

CallySleeper said:
I find this all quite humorous in that the attitude of Osborne is so incredibly typical!!

I think that Cameron (or Blair) would have had the acting abilities and nous to try to laugh it off or spin the story to his advantage.

Osbourne has a lot of similarities to Brown (as well as an addiction to PFI etc) such as lacking the common touch and not being able to react to things.

pemma · 19 Oct 2012

tsr said:
So that's an allegation by a member of TOC staff that a criminal offence has been committed, as far as I can see. What's more, not only is that allegation purported to be from an official Virgin staff, but it relates to someone who was acting in the presence of and on behalf of George Osborne, and who should have been prevented by him from acting that way... if indeed this is what happened.

Do you have a source for this?

It was another Twitter post. I'm trying to find the original source for that and the closest I can find is The Guardian's article which is a reworded statement and says

The Guardian said:
his aide believed to be a police officer had agreed that the chancellor would pay the extra.

Now it looks like Ramesh Chhabra was the person who purchased the new ticket and it doesn't look like she has any involvement in the police, so I think someone's jumped to a conclusion about Chhabra being the person who gave that information.

In addition, it was the responsibility of George Osborne to have a ticket. I may be wrong, but I doubt an aide has it written into any legal contract that they have to provide a valid and correct rail ticket for him for each rail journey that he makes.

It's my understand as well that Osborne is responsible for his own ticket but he is allowed to send someone else to buy a ticket for him, as long as it isn't then used by someone other than the person it was originally purchased for.

iphone76 · 19 Oct 2012

I heard someone called the TM a pleb. *joke*

wintonian · 19 Oct 2012

table38 said:
Seems now to be a complete non-story by someone who wasn't even sat in the same carriage.

Treasury spokesman claims:

Virgin Trains statement:

I wouldn't expect Virgin to be anything but complimentary about how a government minister and their parliamentary aids have conducted themselves.

However if you would like to borrow my Tardis and go back a few weeks.

MattRobinson · 19 Oct 2012

'You don't run this country, you f*cking pleb!' said the chancellor, who'd been taking diplomacy lessons from the chief whip...

jon0844 · 19 Oct 2012

Given the reporter was in standard, who got the photo? Did she wander into first to take the picture? If so, was she stung for an upgrade?! She had no right to go into first class did she!

pemma · 19 Oct 2012

jonmorris0844 said:
Given the reporter was in standard, who got the photo? Did she wander into first to take the picture? If so, was she stung for an upgrade?! She had no right to go into first class did she!

The credit is given to Rachel Townsend and it looks like it's been done on a camera phone from the aisle.

Is there actually any rule about standard class passengers not being able to walk through a first class area? If there is the 350s would have numerous breaches.

I'd suggest the facial expression of the aid suggests that she's well aware of the person who took the photo.

table38 · 19 Oct 2012

Osborne must be the most unsavoury character to travel on a train since this guy...

[youtube]eUemTNZDRXo[/youtube]

wintonian · 19 Oct 2012

jcollins said:
Is there actually any rule about standard class passengers not being able to walk through a first class area? If there is the 350s would have numerous breaches.

Yes see the NRCoC:

39. Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket If you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class accommodation is available, and ticket staff on that train give their permission, then you may travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without extra charge.

On-train ticket staff will not give you permission to use first class accommodation (or the equivalent) unless they are satisfied that it is not required by anyone with a first class ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be withdrawn if a person holding a first class ticket requires the accommodation during your journey or standard class accommodation becomes available.

If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:

(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket for the accommodation you have used; or

(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare.
If you have a standard class Season Ticket,

you may only travel in first class accommodation (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage) if:

(a) the difference between the full single fare for first class accommodation and the full single fare for standard class accommodation has been paid before your journey starts;

(b) any other relevant supplement set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies has been paid before your journey starts;

(c) notices are displayed allowing passengers with standard class tickets to use first class accommodation; or

(d) on-train ticket staff have given you permission.
In all other cases, if you travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) with a standard class Season Ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a valid ticket, and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

Although it is never enforced on those units where first class is in the middle of the set or because of the joining of 2 units and it would be quite difficult/ ridiculous to enforce in such circumstances.

I believe FGW have been known to get upity about people walking through first on their HST to find a toilet for example.

Buttsy · 19 Oct 2012

wintonian said:
Yes see the NRCoC:

If that's teh case, anyone who gets on an HST as the train is about to be dispatched at Paddington, is liable for the first class fare as they have to walk through it to get to teh standard class

wintonian · 19 Oct 2012

Buttsy said:
If that's teh case, anyone who gets on an HST as the train is about to be dispatched at Paddington, is liable for the first class fare as they have to walk through it to get to teh standard class

I've been told before the guard in no uncertain terms at Reading not to board at the first class end of a HST and I had a first class ticket! Although shouting at me from the window he didn't know what ticket I held.

Tracky · 19 Oct 2012

Buttsy said:
If that's teh case, anyone who gets on an HST as the train is about to be dispatched at Paddington, is liable for the first class fare as they have to walk through it to get to teh standard class

If you pay for a First class ticket you don't want a stream of plebs passing through...

Buttsy · 19 Oct 2012

Tracky said:
If you pay for a First class ticket you don't want a stream of plebs passing through...

If you've bought a Standard ticket, you want to be able to catch the train, regardless of teh door you use to get on...

tbtc · 19 Oct 2012

jcollins said:
Is there actually any rule about standard class passengers not being able to walk through a first class area? If there is the 350s would have numerous breaches

A recent thread on here had the feeling that you could pass through First Class, but not "stand" there - since there's been talk of putting buffets in DVTs (i.e. the GEML) to free up carriage space, so I'd be amazed if Standard Class passengers couldn't walk through First Class

wintonian · 19 Oct 2012

tbtc said:
A recent thread on here had the feeling that you could pass through First Class, but not "stand" there - since there's been talk of putting buffets in DVTs (i.e. the GEML) to free up carriage space, so I'd be amazed if Standard Class passengers couldn't walk through First Class

There's a thought for an XC improvement; buffets in first class and restrict standard class passengers to the trolley.

Tracky · 19 Oct 2012

Buttsy said:
If you've bought a Standard ticket, you want to be able to catch the train, regardless of teh door you use to get on...

Well you should be at the platform in plenty of time...

Starmill · 19 Oct 2012

This walking-through-first issue came up yesterday, in an unrelated thread! The recurring examples were the LM trains and the 185s - facilities accessible to standard class passengers are located either side of the first class sections. Ergo, it MUST be acceptable to walk through these portions of the carriage, even if you only hold a standard class ticket.

Clearly, the NRCoCs are covering all bases by saying otherwise, but this does nothing but create inconsistency and disparities between operators, confusing passengers further (especially if FGW are actually telling people off for it while TPE are advising people that its acceptable!).

As with so many other things about rail in the UK - utterly ridiculous.

wintonian · 19 Oct 2012

starmill said:
This walking-through-first issue came up yesterday, in an unrelated thread! The recurring examples were the LM trains and the 185s - facilities accessible to standard class passengers are located either side of the first class sections. Ergo, it MUST be acceptable to walk through these portions of the carriage, even if you only hold a standard class ticket.

Clearly, the NRCoCs are covering all bases by saying otherwise, but this does nothing but create inconsistency and disparities between operators, confusing passengers further (especially if FGW are actually telling people off for it while TPE are advising people that its acceptable!).

As with so many other things about rail in the UK - utterly ridiculous.

Yes it is normally acceptable to walk through in such circumstances, the NCoC don't have to be enforced where they are restrictive to the passenger.

knight2004 · 19 Oct 2012

find London midland don't keep tabs on 1st paying customers very well on the trent valley stopper! ppl often sit in first for a couple of stops!

George Osborne in first class with standard ticket?

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