Manchester Metrolink T68 Thread

Manchester77 · 25 Nov 2012

1011 can never run again. It's had it's notorious equipment and door stuff removed and is sat at old trafford with 1004 iirc
And 1020 is also out

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Stonesourscotty · 25 Nov 2012

Hmm must have drunk more of that mulled cider than i thought. Sorry for that

northernrail · 25 Nov 2012

With 1011 being a T68M and 1020 being a T68 even if they were both in service it wouldnt hvae been likely

Manchester77 · 25 Nov 2012

northernrail said:
With 1011 being a T68M and 1020 being a T68 even if they were both in service it wouldnt hvae been likely

The T68M term is only used to describe the initial three trams modified for Eccles Running. These are 1005, 1010 and 1015. They were modified with squarer coupler covers which have 4 lines on them:-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hhhumber/2445416316/
The other T68s that were modified are referred to as T68s and have a rounder coupler cover which has 2 lines on. Over time the original T68Ms have had these covers as have the T68A:-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/portfoliodragon/6969021426/
The units that haven't relieved the covers are known as in modified units/T68s.

As you can see in the attached images, they're both 1005 however in the first image it has the original T68M cover and in the second the standard T68 cover

pemma · 7 Jan 2013

If anyone wants a T68 teaser -

The revamped Sooty show started in 1993. The first episode showed the puppets at G-Mex with Sue appearing to buy tickets from the machine to Woodlands Road travelling on a T68. The T68 had the number covered up with a Sooty sticker. Which T68 was used?

spargazer · 7 Jan 2013

can anyone tell me the wheel diameters of each please, also a 50 foot stretch of the 1906 tram line in Sale was revealed after a waterburst repair, view here and if anyone wants a better res image please contact me http://www.flickr.com/photos/89153538@N08/8358956698/in/photostream

theblackwatch · 20 Jan 2013

I was in the area yesterday and noticed that the T68s appeared to be confined to the Altrincham-Bury route (the majority operating in pairs). I didn't notice one running into Piccadilly, although the T68a sets were on Piccadilly services.

Am I right in thinking there haven't been any more withdrawals recently?

Peter Jones · 20 Jan 2013

theblackwatch said:
I was in the area yesterday and noticed that the T68s appeared to be confined to the Altrincham-Bury route (the majority operating in pairs). I didn't notice one running into Piccadilly, although the T68a sets were on Piccadilly services.

Am I right in thinking there haven't been any more withdrawals recently?

As far as I am aware, there have been no further withdrawals in recent months, with 11 T68's withdrawn and 15 still in traffic. I was out yesterday myself and noted 12 T68's working in 6 pairs, all as you say on Bury to Altrincham directs, which now appears to be the normal working for the T68's. The 3 serviceable T68's not seen in passenger service yesterday by me were 1009, 1017 and 1025. At least 2001, 2004 and 2006 (T68a's) were out yesterday on Eccles/Media City to Piccadilly services.

There has been a further batch of M5000 released to traffic in the last two weeks, with 3042, 3043, 3044, 3045, 3048 and 3049 all entering service, all of which were out yesterday on passenger services (which I scored 3042, 3045, 3048 and 3049 for haulage, having had 3043 and 3044 new the previous weekend). I didn't see 3046 or 3047, so don't know if these have entered service.

With the opening of the Droylsden line in around 3 weeks, and with the Bury to Piccadilly services being extended to run through to Droylesden, it will further reduce the possibility of T68's operating in and out of Piccadilly unless a single one ends up on the Eccles/Media City to Piccadilly services as I believe the T68's wont be allowed to run on the extension to Droylesden.

Edit:

Further update, I have since found out that 1025 has now been withdrawn, and is to be used an an "ice-braker" tram, being withdrawn from passenger service on 15/01/2013.

theblackwatch · 20 Jan 2013

Thanks for that update Peter. 1009 and 1017 were out yesterday as a pair - I had them back from Bury at about 16.30, they had arrived ECS so perhaps didn't come out until that time. I also noted 2001 had also moved onto Bury services by 16.30 as I passed it heading in that direction.

3060 was also in traffic yesterday (not sure how long it's been out?), so by my reckoning, now in service are 3001-45/48/49/60. Does anyone know which is the highest numbered one to be delivered?

Peter Jones · 20 Jan 2013

theblackwatch said:
Thanks for that update Peter. 1009 and 1017 were out yesterday as a pair - I had them back from Bury at about 16.30, they had arrived ECS so perhaps didn't come out until that time. I also noted 2001 had also moved onto Bury services by 16.30 as I passed it heading in that direction.

3060 was also in traffic yesterday (not sure how long it's been out?), so by my reckoning, now in service are 3001-45/48/49/60. Does anyone know which is the highest numbered one to be delivered?

Hi,

With you seeing 1009 + 1017 out yesterday that makes all serviceable T68's out in the day. You are correct in the list of M5000's currently in service. 3060 has been in service around 1 month, around the same time as 3041 came out as I had these both new on the same day. I have no idea why that one was picked out of sequence. The highest delivered is 3062 so far.

theblackwatch · 21 Jan 2013

Interesting news about 1025. I wonder what will be used as an ice-breaker on the new routes to Shaw and Droylesden.

34D · 26 Jan 2013

Peter Jones said:
With the opening of the Droylsden line in around 3 weeks, and with the Bury to Piccadilly services being extended to run through to Droylesden, it will further reduce the possibility of T68's operating in and out of Piccadilly unless a single one ends up on the Eccles/Media City to Piccadilly services as I believe the T68's wont be allowed to run on the extension to Droylesden.

Most informative, thanks.

Is there a reason why the T68s aren't allowed to Droylesden?

Manchester77 · 26 Jan 2013

T68s are banned from phase 3A lines (except MediaCityUK spur) due to track wear. They went onto SML when it was just SWR - VIC during an investigation into how T68s affect track wear. They will never venture onto the ORL line (or at least not past Central Park) as they have not been cleared by Network Rail to go past their Newton Heath depot and single line to the waste plant.
NR are very particular, when the ECC line was built and they were gauge testing close to the NR line to Eccles and beyond the new T68A units had to be towed by a T68 as they (T68A) had not been clarded by railtrack/NR

WatcherZero · 26 Jan 2013

Any new train is tested for gauging and EM interference with trackside equipment, TfGM havent bothered testing the T68 on the Oldham line, last I heard they hadnt tested doubles past Newton Heath either since they didnt envisage operating any doubles on the line in the near future.

The T68 arent categorically banned from the other 3A lines, T68's have occasionally operated South Manchester services, their just prefered not to form the services if possible.

Manchester77 · 27 Jan 2013

Well they must have at some point as there's been a double up on the Rochdale stretch for testing to Rochdale.

WatcherZero · 27 Jan 2013

Easily could have been coupled there or run past Newton Heath with one car powered down.

Geeves · 29 Jan 2013

Yeah they ran as an M5000 - T68 - M5000 Sandwich I seem to remember, as watcher says the T68 had its pan down.

As for icebreaking they already fitted one M5000 with a special tougher Ice breaking pantograph

Jordy · 30 Jan 2013

I was in Manchester yesterday, nothing of any particular note to report, 3060 seen out in traffic, T68s exclusively in pairs on Altrincham - Bury with a T68a or two out on the Eccles. Managed to get the remaining operational T68s I needed in the book meaning I've missed out on having 1008, 1018 and 1020.

Stonesourscotty · 2 Feb 2013

Geeves any idea of said M5000?

id love these M5000's to have better seats fitted European standard seats just dont cut it in the Uk.

pemma · 2 Feb 2013

Stonesourscotty said:
id love these M5000's to have better seats fitted European standard seats just dont cut it in the Uk.

That's because what sounds like the same purpose is actually very different.

Metrolink has more similarities with German S-Bahn systems than it does with German tram systems.

Rhydgaled · 6 Feb 2013

jcollins said:
Yesterday it seemed like the majority of T68s in service were in double formation and almost every tram not doubled up was a M5000. The Old Trafford depot now seems to see a lot of T68s sitting there out-of-service when previously it saw a number of M5000s sat there.

I thought yesterday evening at first glance I saw a T68 joined up to a M5000 but then realised it was the yellow T68 and not a M5000.

There seems to be a new automated announcement on the M5000s which says something along the lines of "We apologise for the delay this is because we are currently stopped at a red signal. We expect to start moving again shortly."

I've heard drivers announcing they are held at a signal before, but I don't think I've heard an automated announcment to that effect. I don't think I've ever seen 3xxx trams (I call 'em Metrolink mrk3 trams, 'cos T68 and M5000 are harder for me to remember) run in multiple, despite them having less seating capacity than the 1xxx and 2xxx (metrolink mrk1 and metrolink mrk3). Any particular reason why this is (is it just there's not enough mrk3s due to some being stuck in the depots because they only have the new signalling system which isn't working yet)?

theblackwatch said:
I was in the area yesterday and noticed that the T68s appeared to be confined to the Altrincham-Bury route (the majority operating in pairs). I didn't notice one running into Piccadilly, although the T68a sets were on Piccadilly services.

This is generally my observation also, a right mixture (single mrk3s and double mrk1s, maybe even the odd single mrk1) on Altrincham-Bury, mrk3s on Altrincham-Piccadilly and Oldham/Shaw-St.Whatsists.Rd. and a mix of mrk3s and mrk2s on Eccles and/or MediaCity services. The Bury services I've seen leaving Piccadilly seem to be mrk3s also. Judging by how rarely the mrk1 trams seem to be in Piccadilly, the diagrams don't seem to interwork (unless Bury/Altrincham - Piccadilly services do), which supprises me. Anyone know how many diagrams there are on each route? Do they even run to a timetable, and if so why don't the stops have signs telling you which minutes past the hour trams are due (at least for the periods when the frequency is less than every 6 minutes)?

Also, how many of the trams have/had names, I haven't seen any of the new trams with names. I'm also supprised to learn there's only one of the old trams in the new yellow/silver colour scheme, since I've noticed it quite a few times in my relatively short time in the area.

Manchester77 · 6 Feb 2013

http://www.britishtramsonline.co.uk/news/?attachment_id=904
1008 failed so 3020 came to rescue it

There are very few T68s out now as they are in the process of being withdrawn. All T68s run n doubles (unless one has been scrapped to make the total fleet an odd number which would then mean all doubles plus on single)
T68A units cannot run in multiple as it causes them to fail
T68/A trams are limited to phase 1/2 routes (and MediaCityUK) but their appearances on the Eccles line has reduced.
Once the Bury - Piccadilly service is extended to Droylsden this will become M5000 only.
T68As are used less and less now. There have been several days when they have not operated at all.

Aha you're delving into the world of TMS, VRS, ATS and LOS signalling.
Basically metrolink need to commission a. Nw signalling system if they want real time PIDs and higher frequencies and more that 30 tph through Cornbrook. So they're (well Thayles) have been contracted to roll out TMS which is a LOS based signalling system. However due to disputes and technical stuff this has been delayed. It operates Eccles - Pomona via MediaCityUK. On the ORL and SML they have an LOS alternative which allows PIDs to be used. In the CC TMS operates underneath the current VRS and ATS and is accurate to within 20 metres. This is ok for PID information but not for signalling.

Tram 3009 is named Coronation Street 50th Anniversary and 3020 is replacing whoever 1020 is named

Key
ATS - Automatic Tram Stop
VRS - Vehicle Recognition System
TMS - Tram Management System
PID - Passenger Information Display
EML - East Manchester Line
CC - City Centre (Zone)
SML - South Manchester Line

bluegoblin7 · 7 Feb 2013

Rhydgaled said:
I don't think I've ever seen 3xxx trams (I call 'em Metrolink mrk3 trams, 'cos T68 and M5000 are harder for me to remember) run in multiple, despite them having less seating capacity than the 1xxx and 2xxx (metrolink mrk1 and metrolink mrk3). Any particular reason why this is (is it just there's not enough mrk3s due to some being stuck in the depots because they only have the new signalling system which isn't working yet)?

Platform length at Moseley Street: it is too short to take a double M5000, which lack the retractable steps of the T68 to allow them to call.

Double M5000s did call during the Olympic football with staff at the doors to dissuade boarding from the rear unit with the lower platform section - the trams have no SDO capability.

Moseley Street is due to close once TMS is fully commissioned and operational, which will then allow double M5000s to run unhindered.

Rhydgaled · 7 Feb 2013

Thanks for the info. However, I've just remembered another question I had.

Why is it that, despite changing the map to add extensions, the map on trams and stops still shows a MediaCity - Cornbrook service despite these services actually continuing to Piccadilly due to no turnback facility at Cornbrook? Why doesn't the map reflect reality?

Manchester77 · 7 Feb 2013

Idk why the map doesn't show that but TMS isn't implemented so the turn back won't operate

JoeGJ1984 · 7 Feb 2013

Can/do the M5000 stop at Mosley Street? How does that work as they have no retractable steps and the platform is lower than all the others?

Manchester77 · 7 Feb 2013

JoeGJ1984 said:
Can/do the M5000 stop at Mosley Street? How does that work as they have no retractable steps and the platform is lower than all the others?

Yes they can and do. Only double M5000s cannot as the platform is only at the correct height for the length of one tram

martin2345uk · 7 Feb 2013

Though as has been said previously double M5000s have called there but with the rear unit locked out of use until the next stop (St. Peter's Square).

As for why the map still shows Cornbrook - MediaCityUK shuttle service; it's been mentioned on SSC forum that testing is soon to take place on the Cornbrook turnback, which is needed for the shuttle to operate. Once operational, and the service cut back from Piccadilly to Cornbrook, they can theoretically say that there is "no change to the advertised service", as its only ever been advertised as running to Cornbrook. Or something like that anyway...

WatcherZero · 8 Feb 2013

Yes, they dont advertise it as such as then there would be the expectation of it staying. They never intended to operate it this long its been the delay in TMS commisioning thats caused it. The actual siding track itself was finished around the time Media City opened and the staff toilets added not long after that.

theblackwatch · 11 Mar 2013

Now that Rochdale and Droylsden have opened, have 'missing' 3046/7 or any of the 305x series units entered passenger traffic?

Manchester Metrolink T68 Thread

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