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First Class Declassified

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cjp

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" When working on a diagram without first-class provision, the first-class areas may be declassified at the discretion of the on-train staff."
is a remark made in Wikipedia about class 170's.

I thought from what I had read on here that if a unit is running on service with no first class shown/ due / expected it was declassified and no action of on-board or other staff was required.

An example I was thinking of is Inverness to Kyle but I suspect there are others which, for one reason or another get carriages with a first class seating on lines where there is not a 1st class service scheduled.

Have I got it wrong??

Is the test whether or not there is first class fare available??
 
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MidnightFlyer

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Don't trust Wikipedia ;)

ScotRail declassify it, I've been in FC on a 170 in the past between Springburn and Cumbernauld on a Standard ticket. However there was an interesting case in the latter days of NXEA where a 170 turned up on a Norwich-Sheringham service (which have no advertised FC at all), and the company officially ruled the weekend upgrade should be applied for anyone wishing to sit in it IIRC.
 

bnm

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The Reading to Basingstoke locals are an interesting one. Is there anywhere else in the country where the provision of 1st Class is better at the weekend than it is on a weekday?

I know it's to do with the diagrammed rolling stock but it does create this interesting anomaly.
 

AndyLandy

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Don't trust Wikipedia ;)

ScotRail declassify it, I've been in FC on a 170 in the past between Springburn and Cumbernauld on a Standard ticket. However there was an interesting case in the latter days of NXEA where a 170 turned up on a Norwich-Sheringham service (which have no advertised FC at all), and the company officially ruled the weekend upgrade should be applied for anyone wishing to sit in it IIRC.

This is an important point. If no First Class fare is offered for a specific journey, that doesn't automatically mean any FC accommodation provided on that service is automatically declassified. The TOCs are within their rights to say it's either out-of-bounds, or to charge a weekend first type supplement to use it.
 

34D

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This is an important point. If no First Class fare is offered for a specific journey, that doesn't automatically mean any FC accommodation provided on that service is automatically declassified. The TOCs are within their rights to say it's either out-of-bounds, or to charge a weekend first type supplement to use it.

Its probably worth an email to each relevant TOC. I have letters from Northern and FCC confirming they auto-declassify (at the time the letters were written, any way).
 

cjp

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Don't trust Wikipedia ;)

However there was an interesting case in the latter days of NXEA where a 170 turned up on a Norwich-Sheringham service (which have no advertised FC at all), and the company officially ruled the weekend upgrade should be applied for anyone wishing to sit in it IIRC.

I don't trust Wikipedia which I why I asked here hpoing for a simple answer :D

And if it was a weekday?
(There being no first class fare to which they could excess the ticket?)
 

Be3G

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This is an important point. If no First Class fare is offered for a specific journey, that doesn't automatically mean any FC accommodation provided on that service is automatically declassified. The TOCs are within their rights to say it's either out-of-bounds, or to charge a weekend first type supplement to use it.

Or, of course, there's a high probability that first class tickets could be available for longer through journeys that include that section which doesn't have its own first class fare.
 

reb0118

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As an aside to this, when working a local sevice from Markinch in Fife to Edinburgh the service was diagrammed an ex Hull Trains 170 with the rather plush (for a train) green armchair style seats in 1st. The service was not advertised as having 1st class - so this section would have been declassified.

Anyway there were two elderly gentlemen, both holding Fife Concession cards, sitting in the 1st class area. They both had their £1 fare ready when I approached. Being in an impish mood, and with a straight face, I politely informed them that they were in 1st and to "look around" at the superior environment that they were occupying. They agreed that it was rather posh and asked what they had to do - I informed them that a 50% surcharge would be in order and that would be an extra 50p each ~ thank you very much. They presented their 50p stating that they thought it was value for money. Of course I did not accept the additional charge but rather informed them that I had been having them on ~ I was then informed that I should have been on the stage (preferably one with a trap door & a noose <D) but they were still adamant that the extra 50p was value for money on that particular train.

After they had alighted at their chosen stop I discovered that each had left 50p squarely in the middle of the seat that they had occupied. I'm sure that I was the "talk of the steamie" for a while because whenever I saw them again they would wave 50ps at me.

Cheers
 

wintonian

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Indeed! Therefore, First Great Western's Reading - Basingstoke service is declassified Mon-Fri all day until 2100.

Really? You can still buy a FDS for travel from Basingstoke to Mortimer/ Bramley (Hants), I know first class no longer exists during the week (or at least most of it) with 165's at the weekend.
 

causton

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Really? You can still buy a FDS for travel from Basingstoke to Mortimer/ Bramley (Hants), I know first class no longer exists during the week (or at least most of it) with 165's at the weekend.

You can also buy a first class ticket from Hatfield to Welham Green but it does not guarantee services have first class!


I wonder what the most expensive 1st class ticket is where you cannot get first class service...
 

wintonian

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You can also buy a first class ticket from Hatfield to Welham Green but it does not guarantee services have first class!
No but if there were a limited number of services operating that actually have physical first class accommodation (i.e. weekends only) and a first class ticket was available then one would suppose that at least 1 (most likely all) of these limited services has an area for the sole use of first class passengers.

Edit: Now that I have expended the effort to seek out the FGW timetable (attached) I can say with some confidence that the Reading - Basingstoke locals do in-fact convey timetabled first class accommodation on Saturdays and Sundays.
 

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LexyBoy

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When the Reading-Basingstoke service changed there were posters informing passengers of the lack of First and of the provisions for season ticket holders to claim a refund.
 

34D

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When the Reading-Basingstoke service changed there were posters informing passengers of the lack of First and of the provisions for season ticket holders to claim a refund.

What would be behind this change? Presumably the service is still 100% turbo (all of which have first class provision)?

Wasn't there a plan to use 150001 and 150002 on this service? Wonder whether this could be it?
 

richw

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What would be behind this change? Presumably the service is still 100% turbo (all of which have first class provision)?

Wasn't there a plan to use 150001 and 150002 on this service? Wonder whether this could be it?

The two 150s have been operating reading to Basingstoke for quite some time now with turbos stepping in to cover unavailability.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2
 

bnm

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with turbos stepping in to cover unavailability.

Which is quite often! The stock was needed to release turbos for elsewhere, but the merits of having this tiny sub-fleet of Class 150s so far away from the their brethren is questionable.
 

Marton

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What about services where there is no 1st fare.

Most TPE services Middlesbrough-York and vv go via Yarm. one or two go via Darlington.

According to BRFares.com, there is only 1 1st fare a "WET WEEKEND 1ST UPG" Middlesbrough/Darlington, but the validity is "By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0930"

The 0554 York - Middlesbrough is via Darlo dep 0636.

There is therefore no 1st class fare. What happens if one uses 1st?
 

wintonian

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What about services where there is no 1st fare.

Most TPE services Middlesbrough-York and vv go via Yarm. one or two go via Darlington.

According to BRFares.com, there is only 1 1st fare a "WET WEEKEND 1ST UPG" Middlesbrough/Darlington, but the validity is "By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0930"

The 0554 York - Middlesbrough is via Darlo dep 0636.

There is therefore no 1st class fare. What happens if one uses 1st?

Then you get kicked out or commit a byelaw offence if you refuse to leave..

Just because there is not fist class fare between two points dosn't mean that those two points can't form part of a journey where a first class fare is available.

In-fact a FOR is available fro Middlesbrough to york - any permitted for example.
 
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calc7

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I wonder what the most expensive 1st class ticket is where you cannot get first class service...

London Kings Cross to Inverness, if you follow one particular thread in the NR General Discussion forum. <D
 

Eagle

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I wonder what the most expensive 1st class ticket is where you cannot get first class service...

I'm sure it's possible to travel the length of the country on units without first class (but in most cases there would be first class available on other services over the same lines).
 

Sprinter

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Regarding the issue of NXEA and the Sheringham line. One Sunday I was in the area on a general bash around the area, when I noted a 170 on the Sheringham branch. So I waited at Norwich for it and promptly boarded and sat in the FC area, when the guard came around he charged me the (then) £7 weekend upgrade! Even though there is no stated FC on the Sheringham line (as per thier timetable books)...
 
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Barclay

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I often commute home on the 1813 Waterloo to Twickenham, which is a Shepperton via Richmond service without advertised first class facilities. But it's always formed of an 8-car non-HC 450 so I always sit in first class on a standard class ticket. However, I wouldn't dream of sitting in first class on the following service, the 1820 WAT-TWI, despite it being exactly the same route and only 7 minutes later! This is an 8-car 458 on exactly the same route for the journey to Twickenham, but it has an advertised first class option.
 

Trainfan344

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When a 170 operates between Norwich and Lowestoft, i don't think that it is shown as being first class.
 
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