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Grand Central 5th path
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MidnightFlyer
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This post http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1229220&postcount=48 from the more general 'December 2012 timetable changes' thread (linked to in the top right of the post) implies that one of the current Sunderland services is cut back to Hartlepool too, so Sunderland sees no real change, however, Hartlepool, Eaglescliffe and the rest gain the extra train!
That's not what was implied in the Sunderland Echo http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/...fifth-daily-train-service-to-london-1-5008848 ,mind they get things wrong fairly regularly.
sprinterguy
Established Member
Ah, excellent. That gives me lots more time in the York tap when I'm using the early afternoon GC service north from York, or alternately, a later start from Birmingham in order to connect into that service 
A positive move all round!
A positive move all round!Ah, excellent. That gives me lots more time in the York tap when I'm using the early afternoon GC service north from York, or alternately, a later start from Birmingham in order to connect into that service
So is it 5 return services from Sunderland or is MattE2010 right about the service Terminating at Hartlepool?
sprinterguy
Established Member
I believe that MattE2010 is correct.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Agreed, although I presume that this is instead of the "Bradford via Leeds" plans that they had (for an extra West Yorkshire service)?
Will be interesting to see how they cope without any extra stock to run this service.
Time will tell, all will be revealed soon I suppose,mind that won't be any use to Sunderland, any idea why it would terminate at Harlepool by the way?
MidnightFlyer
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OpenTrainTimes seems to confirm that what I linked to in the other thread is correct:
1121 to Hartlepool; 1253 to Sunderland; 1447 to Kings Cross
As for why it starts short, I assume it's because of time constraints: as you can see, the turn around time at Hartlepool is only 20~ minutes!
Maybe the 180 on hire to Hull Trains will have to return to Grand Central, they seem to have managed just fine without it!
sprinterguy
Established Member
Looking at Grand Central's diagrams (http://www.125group.org.uk/diagrams-GC.pdf), the reason that the additional service turns back at Hartlepool is that by doing that, there shouldn't be a need for any additional stock diagrams: The Sunderland services can continue to be run with two HSTs and one 180 (Although it is not quite that simple, as the 180 utilised is swapped over during the day), by means of the 180 diagram that presently sits around doing nothing during the middle of the day becoming an all day diagram.
tbtc
Veteran Member
sprinterguy
Established Member
I'll add as a little caveat though that it is also plausible that Grand Central will actually make use of diagramming that is a little less tidy (on paper, but perhaps necessary in practice) than my calculations and requires an additional 180 in service, but it would be possible, in theory at least, to provide the new services without incurring any additional rolling stock diagrams.
sidmouth
Member
Re the GC service to Hartlepool
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22a-gc-28sa-decision-letter.pdf
And to Bradford via Leeds
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22a-gc-7sa-decision-letter.pdf
Basically, additional GC service terminates at Hartlepool due to lack of path between Hartlepool and Sunderland (due to a freight train), whilst the aplication for the train to Bradford via Leeds was rejected by the ORR as it would "it would run contrary to the general guidance issued by the Secretary of State, would impact on the funds available to the Secretary of State, and impact on railway performance."
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22a-gc-28sa-decision-letter.pdf
And to Bradford via Leeds
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22a-gc-7sa-decision-letter.pdf
Basically, additional GC service terminates at Hartlepool due to lack of path between Hartlepool and Sunderland (due to a freight train), whilst the aplication for the train to Bradford via Leeds was rejected by the ORR as it would "it would run contrary to the general guidance issued by the Secretary of State, would impact on the funds available to the Secretary of State, and impact on railway performance."
tbtc
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Poolie
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So what will be the shunting at Hartlepool for a 20 minute turnround? Some old lines back in use?
if you're on about the bay platform it's way to short for a HST / 180. you'd be lucky to get a 4 car unit in there. though i suspect the 20 min dwell time is in between the northern services. IIRR the freight normally use the unused platform side so there should be no issue.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/HPL/images/photos/800/o2131-0000002.jpg
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/HPL/images/photos/800/o2131-0000002.jpg
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
why oh why would anyone want to go to Hartlepooh? Much as i love Grand Central their service to the that wretched hive of scum and villainy should be discouraged!
Another Grand Central north East service is very good news. I assume this to be operated by a 180 rather than an HST
Another Grand Central north East service is very good news. I assume this to be operated by a 180 rather than an HST
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Will they be able to run the extra diagram with an HST? Is there enough slack in the fleet?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
ok - prefer HST to 180!
sprinterguy
Established Member
One of Grand Central's 180 diagrams sees the unit sit idle at Bounds Green throughout the middle part of the day. With a little bit of jiggery pokery to the existing diagrams, using this unit in service throughout the day, it is possible that the new service won't require any additional rolling stock over the present requirement for two HSTs and one 180 on the Sunderland route. Alternately bringing a fourth 180 into play for some part of the day probably wouldn't unduly tax GCs' maintenance regimes either.
Poolie
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why oh why would anyone want to go to Hartlepooh? Much as i love Grand Central their service to the that wretched hive of scum and villainy should be discouraged!
Another Grand Central north East service is very good news. I assume this to be operated by a 180 rather than an HST
Ha, might see your team play against us in league 1 in a few years time!!!!
Still nothing on the Grand Central website. you'd think they'd shouting from the rooftops!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Ha, might see your team play against us in league 1 in a few years time!!!!
Still nothing on the Grand Central website. you'd think they'd shouting from the rooftops!
it will be the Conference the way things are going
I noticed GC hadn't trumpeted this new service - i wonder why?
OMGitsDAVE
Member
From http://www.grandcentralrail.com/extra-service-to-london
It's worth noting that Monday-Friday, this service is only to Hartlepool. Extends to Sunderland on Saturdays though...
Grand Central said:
It's worth noting that Monday-Friday, this service is only to Hartlepool. Extends to Sunderland on Saturdays though...
davo882000
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Can anyone help me - I'm currently doing some investigation work into the reason why the fifth train service is not extended to Sunderland - From what I can find, a journey from Hartlepool to Sunderland would take 40 minutes - Is this because of a freight train - and if it is what exactly is it carrying or going from and to - any help would be appreciated
davo882000
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would it be possible to adjust the freight train timings in order accomodate the GC to sunderland
Eagle
Established Member
No, it's because there's not enough time to get the train to Sunderland and back, without adding a completely new diagram (which is not possible given GC's small fleet).
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