Northern Rail Stock Shortage Problems

sheff'd victoria · 11 Dec 2012

All this week via twitter it been the same message from Northern Rail, that they wish to say sorry to all their customers if they are standing as this due to lack of stock, you do feel sorry for them.

With the 2 car bouncing railbuses ( Cattle Trucks ) now totally unsuitable for the demand of commuter traffic what can be the short/medium and long term solution for solving Northern Rails fleet shortage problems ?

Years ago we used to send our old trains to different parts of the world , maybe its time to see if any countries have any spare for us ?

RailUK Forums

PR1Berske · 11 Dec 2012

Don't feel sorry for Northern Rail. They signed up for this, they should have considered the consequences.

The rotten service on rotten trains for rotten fares is enough for me to wipe away not one tear for their bleating.

ANorthernGuard · 11 Dec 2012

PR1Berske said:
Don't feel sorry for Northern Rail. They signed up for this, they should have considered the consequences.

The rotten service on rotten trains for rotten fares is enough for me to wipe away not one tear for their bleating.

They signed up for 0% growth not 40% as you know quite well you spend more time Northern Bashing then adding anything constructive to any conversation if anyone is to blame its the government Daft analysts who said that it would be stagnant.

Sapphire Blue · 11 Dec 2012

PR1Berske said:
Don't feel sorry for Northern Rail. They signed up for this, they should have considered the consequences.

The rotten service on rotten trains for rotten fares is enough for me to wipe away not one tear for their bleating.

Its not about Northern though is it.
Its about the poor sods (including yours truly and I assume you) who have to suffer a service that is not fit for purpose.
So yes they should get priority for new stock, but we all know they wont. New stock will go to a London Centric rail company, then replaced stock will go to another (probably First) company, then their replaced stock will arrive 'oop north and be put into service without refurbishment. Torn seats and lifting floors the norm.
The former EM (I think) green 150's were a disgrace I encountered on a Carlisle to Leeds run last winter.
(333's in the affluent Aire and Wharf valleys are , of course, the exception that proves the rule.)

Wath Yard · 11 Dec 2012

We all know what the medium term solution is. Significant parts of Lancashire are being electrified and will be getting cascaded EMUs.

The short term solution is for passengers to understand that is happening and stop whining. 142s have been around for 25 years, why the sudden media interest?

175001 · 11 Dec 2012

ANorthernGuard said:
They signed up for 0% growth not 40% as you know quite well you spend more time Northern Bashing then adding anything constructive to any conversation if anyone is to blame its the government Daft analysts who said that it would be stagnant.

Hear Hear.

Yew · 11 Dec 2012

It's a shame money can't be made available to refurbish their sprinter fleet to a high standard, if they did that, I think quite a few complaints of 'old tatty trains' would go away. I thought EMT's 158's where brand new when I first got into railways....

The pacer fleet has needed replacing for years, it's way past the design life of the leyland national upon which it is based.

YorkshireBear · 11 Dec 2012

Looking at the numbers today. Growth has been 66%. So even worse.

As others say Northern did not sign up for this at all.

Should they be given prority? Yes. Will they No.

Mark_H · 11 Dec 2012

sheff'd victoria said:
With the 2 car bouncing railbuses ( Cattle Trucks ) now totally unsuitable for the demand of commuter traffic what can be the short/medium and long term solution for solving Northern Rails fleet shortage problems ?

My 2 car bouncing railbus on the 17:23 Lincoln Central-Grimsby Town has just been downgraded to a 1-car bouncing railbus in the new timetable. They must know that the regular numbers mean there won't be enough seats now, even with just the usual numbers of commuters & a few shoppers. I know they're between a rock and a hard place, but changing a service that they know the regular numbers for just seems ridiculous.

Eagle · 11 Dec 2012

Mark_H said:
My 2 car bouncing railbus on the 17:23 Lincoln Central-Grimsby Town has just been downgraded to a 1-car bouncing railbus in the new timetable.

Eh? That's not Northern and it's not a Pacer. :?

Also, have you considered (as if anyone actually does :roll

that another service might have needed the capacity more than yours?

pemma · 11 Dec 2012

Wath Yard said:
The short term solution is for passengers to understand that is happening and stop whining. 142s have been around for 25 years, why the sudden media interest?

In recent years they are being used increasingly doubled up as Sprinter replacement, on routes such as Southport-Manchester Airport. The Southport MP being one of those who has criticised them continuing to remain in service.

Accidents occurring resulting from chasis problems have only started happening in the last few years and the RAIB report in to one of the incidents pointed out that certain parts used in Pacers are under more pressure at low speeds than they were designed to be put under.

Ivo · 11 Dec 2012

They definitely need the extra stock, but it doesn't mean they should be given priority. Once the 319s are released the average train - especially on the busier routes in the south-western area of the operation - will be longer, hopefully with 156s released by the 319s sent to assume Pacer duties elsewhere.

Not a perfect solution, and probably not useful for eliminating all Pacers pre-DDA, but a good start - without the need for other TOCs to be forced to sit back and wait while their colleageus up north suddenly find themselves in a goldmine.

Wath Yard · 11 Dec 2012

jcollins said:
In recent years they are being used increasingly doubled up as Sprinter replacement, on routes such as Southport-Manchester Airport. The Southport MP being one of those who has criticised them continuing to remain in service.

Accidents occurring resulting from chasis problems have only started happening in the last few years and the RAIB report in to one of the incidents pointed out that certain parts used in Pacers are under more pressure at low speeds than they were designed to be put under.

No they haven't. The accident that showed the real shortcomings of Pacers was Winsford and that was 1999. Bits falling off isn't good and TOCs/ROSCOs should do whatever they can to prevent it but bits fell off a 222 a year or two back and derailed it but there isn't a call to scrap all 22x units.

The MP for Southport is an MP. All MPs think their constituents should travel to work on the VSOE!

pemma · 11 Dec 2012

Ivo said:
hopefully with 156s released by the 319s sent to assume Pacer duties.

It won't work like that.

On the Manchester Picc and Lime Street diagrams (which don't get 144s, 153s, 155s or 158s) diagrams get one of the following (in size order):

142
150
156
142+142
142+150
150+150
150+156
156+156

(I don't think there are any booked 142+156 diagrams.)

The next step up from a 142 is a 150 opposed to a 156.

Also, one of the proposed changes in the Northern Hub is an enhanced service on Chester-Warrington-Manchester. If that's ATW operated I can see some of Northern's 150s or 158s going to ATW with that enhancement being proposed before any Valley Line electrification scheme was approved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wath Yard said:
No they haven't.

Would you like to list the pre-2009 chassis related accidents involving Pacers then? I think 3 have happened since then but only one in passenger service on a Liverpool-Blackpool service. The first occurred a few months after the Southport MP first spoke out about the use of Pacer trains, so the incidents attracted media attention.

DarloRich · 11 Dec 2012

PR1Berske said:
Don't feel sorry for Northern Rail. They signed up for this, they should have considered the consequences.

The rotten service on rotten trains for rotten fares is enough for me to wipe away not one tear for their bleating.

Sapphire Blue said:
Its not about Northern though is it.
Its about the poor sods (including yours truly and I assume you) who have to suffer a service that is not fit for purpose.
So yes they should get priority for new stock, but we all know they wont. New stock will go to a London Centric rail company, then replaced stock will go to another (probably First) company, then their replaced stock will arrive 'oop north and be put into service without refurbishment. Torn seats and lifting floors the norm.
The former EM (I think) green 150's were a disgrace I encountered on a Carlisle to Leeds run last winter.
(333's in the affluent Aire and Wharf valleys are , of course, the exception that proves the rule.)

There is some wibble on here at times. Give your heads a shake.

Northern won a 0% growth franchise. They have seen 40%+ growth. I think they do a bloody good job trying to cart us all about with what they have. Is it perfect? No. Are they doing their best? Just about. The way the franchise system is structured means they have no incentive (or perhaps even ability) to invest in replacement or additional stock. Bear in mind they run one of the most diverse and geographically wide franchises in the country. Consider it is in effect two (or perhaps 3) franchises merged together.

So how do you propose to fix things until the new (ish) trains come on stream following the TP electrification works? H'way. How are you going to fix it? Where are you going to rustle extra trains up from? Where will you get the staff? How will you squeeze even more trains onto the congested network? Where will you get the money? Answers on post card please

As an aside the Northern Rail PPM is c.92% - that isn’t too bad!

tbtc · 11 Dec 2012

Here we go again... does anyone fancy a game of Bingo?

Cattle Trucks?
Nodding Donkeys?
Zero Growth?

The reality is that Northern have had something like a 40% increase in capacity over the last few years, some of the busy DMU Northern lines are getting electrified in a few years (mainly around Manchester and Liverpool, but there may be a couple of Northern DMUs freed up in Leeds...), Pacers are going to need replaced before long, the "south east" struggled on with slam door stock for a long time and still has many EMUs that are older than Northern's oldest stock.

This "chip on the shoulder" stuff about "the south" just gets silly - there have been improvements at Northern and there will be more improvements over the remainder of this decade. Now, where did I put my Whippet?

Mark_H · 11 Dec 2012

Eagle said:
Eh? That's not Northern and it's not a Pacer. :?

Also, have you considered (as if anyone actually does :roll that another service might have needed the capacity more than yours?

I'll get my coat

In defense of my forgetful brain, there are 3 franchises running out of my home station, and I use them all.

On the other hand, I wasn't claiming it was a pacer, just copying the OP's humorous description. What is my one-car wonder? A Super Sprinter?

As for your eye-rolling: No, I have no idea of East Midland's capacity needs elsewhere, I can only comment on my own service. If no-one complains because "they might not know everything", then nothing will ever get fixed. And I can safely say that my service will now feature plenty of people standing to Market Rasen every day, often of the little-old-lady variety, because of this decision. I dread to think what will happen in summer, when even the 2-car unit was jam packed.

KingBBoogaloo · 11 Dec 2012

Can I just point out that this is not a problem of Northern not having enough trains, but not enough working trains. Looking at the services mentioned on Twitter they are all short formed.

Reliability of the fleet has slowly got worse over the last few months mainly down to decisions made by Northern and they are only going to get worse as the number of station Fitters are cut.

Northern have some old and unreliable trains, something it cant help, but those trains need a lot of tlc, something Northern are not giving them.

PR1Berske · 11 Dec 2012

KingBBoogaloo said:
Can I just point out that this is not a problem of Northern not having enough trains, but not enough working trains. Looking at the services mentioned on Twitter they are all short formed.

Reliability of the fleet has slowly got worse over the last few months mainly down to decisions made by Northern and they are only going to get worse as the number of station Fitters are cut.

Northern have some old and unreliable trains, something it cant help, but those trains need a lot of tlc, something Northern are not giving them.

But the way some people talk on here it's as though Northern not giving out TLC is someone else's problem. It's not - it's Northerns.

And as for the point at the top of the page; London gets all the investment, Scotland seems to get all the re-opened lines. The North? It gets reduced to sprucing up an already well served Manchester. We have a poverty of service up here, and our main TOC isn't helping.

jon91 · 11 Dec 2012

Mark_H said:
On the other hand, I wasn't claiming it was a pacer, just copying the OP's humorous description. What is my one-car wonder? A Super Sprinter?

If it's one carriage it'll be a Class 153, otherwise known as a dogbox.

aylesbury · 11 Dec 2012

Boy am I glad I live on Chilterns network ,on time ,clean,and we get new trains ,this a big differnce to you poor devils in the north.Perhaps if local authorities get control over what goes into the local services you will receive decent rolling stock.

Xenophon PCDGS · 11 Dec 2012

Wath Yard said:
We all know what the medium term solution is. Significant parts of Lancashire are being electrified and will be getting cascaded EMUs.

What age group will these cascaded EMU's fall in, if and when they finally appear?

Was not some doubt cast recently as to the time period when this may occur owing to the cascadees not receiving their NEW stock in sufficient time to enable this to happen?

tbtc · 11 Dec 2012

PR1Berske said:
London gets all the investment, Scotland seems to get all the re-opened lines. The North? It gets reduced to sprucing up an already well served Manchester. We have a poverty of service up here, and our main TOC isn't helping.

Yeah, apart from the 40% increase in capacity and all the promises of electrification this decade, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Xenophon PCDGS · 11 Dec 2012

tbtc said:
Pacers are going to need replaced before long.....the "south east" struggled on with slam door stock for a long time

To be looking on the other side of that same coin, for how many years did the Class 304 "slam-door" EMU stock run on services in the North-West on commuter routes before they were finally withdrawn?

tbtc · 11 Dec 2012

Paul Sidorczuk said:
To be looking on the other side of that same coin, for how many years did the Class 304 "slam-door" EMU stock run on services in the North-West on commuter routes before they were finally withdrawn?

I don't honestly know.

I do know that the "affluent Aire and Wharf valleys" had three coach 308s for a few years before they got three coach 333s, but that was nothing compared to how long similar stock stuck around down south (IIRC slam door EMUs and DMUs remained in Scotland until fairly late on too - despite the "grass is always greener north of the border" claims that some make).

pemma · 11 Dec 2012

I think the slam door electrics in the North West were withdrawn in the mid-1990s. Slam doors diesels remained in the North West until around 2003. It should have been around 2001 but class 175 teething problems meant 6 or so units remained in service for an extra couple of years. There was then a slam door loco hauled set introduced to cover for 158s being subleased to TPE, which remained in service until Northern Rail took over in 2004.

wilsontown · 11 Dec 2012

Reliability of the fleet has slowly got worse over the last few months mainly down to decisions made by Northern and they are only going to get worse as the number of station Fitters are cut.

Yes, I know Northern mainly operates old diesel units...but similar old diesel units operated by SWT (i.e their 158s and 159s) are among the most reliable trains on the network. Northern's are something like a tenth as reliable. So just saying that Northern have old stock doesn't give the full picture.

Eagle · 11 Dec 2012

wilsontown said:
Yes, I know Northern mainly operates old diesel units...but similar old diesel units operated by SWT (i.e their 158s and 159s) are among the most reliable trains on the network. Northern's are something like a tenth as reliable. So just saying that Northern have old stock doesn't give the full picture.

Age and reliability are unrelated, of course. Some of the most reliable trains in Britain are the 220s, and some of the least reliable are the 180s. Both were built in the same year. (And both are high-speed DMUs so that's a valid comparison.)

Tim R-T-C · 11 Dec 2012

aylesbury said:
Boy am I glad I live on Chilterns network ,on time ,clean,and we get new trains ,this a big differnce to you poor devils in the north.Perhaps if local authorities get control over what goes into the local services you will receive decent rolling stock.

Perhaps but doubt they will have any more money to play with and can do nothing but request more/new trains from the same place as everyone else.

DarloRich · 11 Dec 2012

DarloRich said:
So how do you propose to fix things until the new (ish) trains come on stream following the TP electrification works? H'way. How are you going to fix it? Where are you going to rustle extra trains up from? Where will you get the staff? How will you squeeze even more trains onto the congested network? Where will you get the money? Answers on post card please

I shall ask again! It is fine to complain but lets hear a sensible way of solving the problem

Northern Rail Stock Shortage Problems

Should Northern Rail Get Priorty Over New Unit Stock ?

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