Do I need to give up my seat?

Travelling on a Trans-Pennine service this weekend my wife and I had standard class off-peak tickets. We found seats and sat down. A few minutes later when the train had filled up another passenger "claimed" the seat was theirs as they had a reserved ticket for my seat number.

They did indeed have a reserved seat but my view was that the train company had not honoured that booking by marking the seat for them. From my side, if the seat had been marked as reserved I would not have sat there and (because we were early on the train) could have sat elsewhere without issue. Although I sympathise with the person with the reserved seat I also think it unfair that those without reserved seats should be subject to a form of russian roulette! I realise that my ticket does not entitle me to a seat but it was by all reasonable indications free when I took it and I can see no reason in the National Conditions of Carriage why I would have to "give up" the seat.

I told the person (who was actually pretty loud about their side of the argument) that they should take the matter up with the train guard but one never showed up so the question remained unresolved. I would be interested to know which of us was correct as I did understand their case but equally felt I had a relevant point. The root cause of the problem would seem to be the train company for not marking reserved seats but I have no idea what (if any) obligations there are in that respect.

Any comments?

Was it a case of no reservation labels being placed at all on that train? If so it's a case of 'sit anywhere' and the train is effectively non-reserved. No-one has a right to claim a reserved seat in such circumstances. This happens due to disruption or a faulty printer (or faulty computer system in the case of certain other types of train)

Or had the passenger before you removed the label? If so then that's unfortunate but my view is in that situation you should move.

Thanks for the interesting reply Yorkie.

No, it was not a case of a previous passenger removing the seat reserved label. There were none anywhere in that carriage (and I think the whole train). We got on at the origin (as did the person I was in dispute with) so the train was completely empty. The other passenger did admit that on their outward journey their seat had been labeled.

I agree that if it appeared the seat reserved label had just somehow been dislodged etc then I should move.

There were many others with reserved tickets who challenged people already seated (though as in my case there were no reserved seat labels). To be honest most people just moved rather than cause a scene but I decided to wait for the guard as I wasn't sure I had to move and the person was sufficiently loud that I didn't feel particularly minded to cooperate.

It is interesting that, from what you say, if passengers have reserved seats but the seats themselves are not labeled for some reason (such as the examples you give) then the train "defaults" to a non-reserved service. Presumably the reserved ticket holder should take the matter up with the train company. From the amount of people that gave up their seats it would appear this concept is not well understood.

On a Transpennine service last month we had this issue. The guard specifically announced that all reservations were void. Avoided any ambiguity at least.

mrkjd said:

Thanks for the interesting reply Yorkie.

No, it was not a case of a previous passenger removing the seat reserved label. There were none anywhere in that carriage (and I think the whole train). We got on at the origin (as did the person I was in dispute with) so the train was completely empty. The other passenger did admit that on their outward journey their seat had been labeled.

I agree that if it appeared the seat reserved label had just somehow been dislodged etc then I should move.

There were many others with reserved tickets who challenged people already seated (though as in my case there were no reserved seat labels). To be honest most people just moved rather than cause a scene but I decided to wait for the guard as I wasn't sure I had to move and the person was sufficiently loud that I didn't feel particularly minded to cooperate.

It is interesting that, from what you say, if passengers have reserved seats but the seats themselves are not labeled for some reason (such as the examples you give) then the train "defaults" to a non-reserved service. Presumably the reserved ticket holder should take the matter up with the train company. From the amount of people that gave up their seats it would appear this concept is not well understood.

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I've a fair bit of experience of TPE, and this is not an uncommon occurrence. However they do usually announce that there are no reservations on the train when it happens. Sometimes this is done at the station, and sometimes by the guard before/shortly after departure.

It is no doubt, pretty annoying for those boarding with reservations along the way who haven't heard an announcement.

As Yorkie says, no tickets mean no reservations, so you were right to stand your ground on this occasion. The wider issues of running 3-car dmus on intercity services, and trying to run them simultaneously as Greater Manchester commuter trains, still needs to be addressed

mrkjd said:

...There were none anywhere in that carriage (and I think the whole train). We got on at the origin (as did the person I was in dispute with) so the train was completely empty....

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In that case you were completely in the right and they were perhaps either new to rail travel or being awkward.

Most guards do make appropriate announcements informing people that there are no reservations but, clearly, some don't. You could write to TPE regarding that. I know of TPE guards on this forum who make comprehensive announcements, and most TPE guards are good in my experience (often going out of their way to provide connection information for onward travel, sometimes unprompted), but some just don't say anything. You could write to TPE about that.

Welcome to the forum, by the way!

The OP doesn't say where they were travelling from but this is very common on services originating at Manchester Airport which get turned round at Piccadilly because of late running. The reservation cards are printed at MIA so never get to the train. As others have said, there is usually an announcement to the effect that reservations are void.

There is some inconsistency between TOCs though. Virgin are particularly irritating in insisting that reservations are valid when their electronic displays aren't working, or suddenly come on mid-journey.

I thought there was something in the NRCoC about reservations only being valid if indicated at the seat but can't find anything. Has this changed recently?

Thanks all for clarifying the situation.

I think 90% of the carriage thought I was the awkward one - but no matter, a lesson learnt. I didn't hear any announcement cancelling reservations but there was an announcement that the train would be running at reduced speed due to line work. An announcement certainly would have helped. Perhaps they turned the train around quickly after arrival so it didn't depart late and chose not to place reserved labels because of this.

mrkjd said:

I think 90% of the carriage thought I was the awkward one - but no matter, a lesson learnt.

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I've had that on busy peak time trains. I just tell them that there is nothing on the seat to say it's reserved and if the conductor asks me to move I will. All this knowing (a) that the train is far too packed for them to find the conductor and (b) by the time they have done that the train will be at Bolton and there will be lots of seats free so I'll move anyway.

snail said:

There is some inconsistency between TOCs though. Virgin are particularly irritating in insisting that reservations are valid when their electronic displays aren't working, or suddenly come on mid-journey.

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...or before the green reservation panels switch on at Euston (TBF they're already active when you get on most of the time on the Pendos), I've had the situation with a TM telling people who come and ask that reservations are not working (but not giving a message to the whole train).

Then, when the electronic reservation boards come on, a mass argument ensues, as some people expect their booked seat (with a ticket and electronic board to back them up), and some have been told (erroneously) by the TM that reservations are broken. Lots of raised voices, and in this particular incident, a rather ineffectual TM, who just walks through amidst the arguments.

Meanwhile, I'm glad that I got a move on down the platform to get to my booked seat early and avoid any of this!!

Snail,

I had a quick look at the NRCoC to see if it shed any light on reservation validity and couldn't find anything either. Would carrier TOCs have primacy over NRCoC? I cannot envisage how a reservation (Virgin) can be held valid if the seat does not indicate that it is reserved. In the absence of specific conditions I would not have thought that a "reasonable man" test would support this and the reservation holder should take the matter up with the train company as the seat occupier has done nothing wrong. Even if the Virgin TOCs specified this then is it fair contract?

In the case of the Virgin electronic display coming on mid-journey, well I guess things start to become more complex but the contract between passenger and carrier is perhaps executed at the point the seat is occupied so the display coming on mid-journey is effectively a change of condition which the passenger would not necessarily have to accept. Unless some other clause allows this to happen? And this begs the question, what happens if you go to the WC and someone has taken your seat - do you have redress? Is possession really 9/10ths of the law? The plot thickens!

As yorkie states above it is correct that if the labels have not been put out then the reservations are void but if a passenger removes the label without authorisation then the original reservation holds.

To give a different perspective our European cousins allow you to reserve a seat in most cases up to a few minutes prior to the departure time at your station - note not the origin of the train. Therefore, reservation labels are not always put out BUT you are expected to give up your seat to the reservation holder.

In the main you pay for a seat reservation in Europe over and above your fare and this may have some bearing on the above.

mrkjd said:

Travelling on a Trans-Pennine service this weekend my wife and I had standard class off-peak tickets....................I realise that my ticket does not entitle me to a seat

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reservation.

When I originally was going to quote the above I thought that you meant you were not entitled to a reservation because you had an "open" ticket, but I see you never mentioned reservation in that context. With the exception of season tickets you can reserve one seat per valid ticket.

That said, however, many people still think that you only get a reservation with an advance fare not open tickets and conversely many people with open tickets think that they have to stick to the reservation that they have.

The short answer is yes, you should have given up the seat.

Fair enough you didn't know the seat was reserved when you sat in it but the reservation the passenger was holding is just the same as the reservation label that should have been in the back of the seat.

Had the Guard announced that there are no reservations on the train, then its a free for all.

THe general rule is a train ticket allows one to travel but does not entitle one to a seat.

Since on Arriva Cross Country people can reserve a seat very nearly up to departure time, you can find yourself turfed out at any moment.

Wyvern said:

THe general rule is a train ticket allows one to travel but does not entitle one to a seat.

Since on Arriva Cross Country people can reserve a seat very nearly up to departure time, you can find yourself turfed out at any moment.

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But that is only on a limited number of seats, which display wording to this effect. If you choose to sit in a seat that indicates this, then sitting there is on that understanding. Additionally, someone who does that could in fact reserve a seat from the next stop anyway.

Hi KB,

Your interpretation is a different slant on the general trend of answers here but raises a valid point. Does the Train Guard have to announce that reservations are cancelled for the service to become such? Or is the fact that no reservation labels are present mean the service "defaults" to reservation free?

Just to be precise - I did not refuse to give up my seat. I chose not to give up the seat until the Guard confirmed the situation. Which did not happen.

If KB's point is valid, then it would mean that passengers without reservations are subject to seat russian roulette. We could have luckily chose seats that were not reserved and there would have been no issue. It is unfair if someone with a reserved seat cannot take it but it is (in my opinion) equally unfair if someone is denied the choice of what seats are and are not available when they board. My ticket does not guarantee a seat but that does not mean that if I take a free seat which has no indication that it is reserved (or indeed being used by somebody else) that I have to give it up.

Either way - one of us (myself or the reserved seat passenger) is unfairly treated. Since I was seated the onus to resolve the issue through the Guard was with the reserved seat passenger.

The original query was about the right of the holder of a reserved seat. Widening the issue, I'm wondering about their obligation. Say they have an advance ticket with a specific seat reservation confirming their entitlement to use a particular train - can they sit in any free seat, be it unreserved or reserved for a non-conflicting part of the journey, or must they use the one allocated at the time of booking? The former act will initially make it harder for others to find a seat, but is the quick solution to the problem of a squatter in the designated one. I'm assuming that onboard reservations, labels or displays, are present.

I travel on advance tickets between London and Cardiff and back off peak every week on lightly loaded middle-day services. I am usually one of the first to board and have no cases to stow.

I always reserve a window seat. As I like my space and privacy, on the rare occasions the aisle seat is reserved, I do remove my reservation ticket and place it where I prefer to sit. I may be technically in breach of regulations but it seems to me a minor transgression and I have never been challenged.

I suspect I am in a very small minority. I have seen people struggling through a three quarters empty train with heavy bags because they have reserved seats in a different carriage.

KingBBoogaloo said:

The short answer is yes, you should have given up the seat.

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I disagree. I concur with reb0118 (who is a guard) that if there are no seat reservations, the train is effectively unreserved and reservations are void.

You can't seriously expect people to play 'musical chairs' for the entire journey, can you? Seriously?!

XC is the only TOC I am aware of enforcing an invisible reservations policy, though if there are any others I'd be interested to know, I may chase it up.

EC always say reservations are void if there are no labels.

KingBBoogaloo said:

Had the Guard announced that there are no reservations on the train, then its a free for all.

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If there are no reservation labels on the train, it should be fairly obvious to most people, however the guard should have announced it. But I cannot agree that the lack of an announcement means that invisible reservations apply.

Enforcing invisible reservations is absurd and defies common sense.

yorkie said:

The mere idea of invisible reservations applying is absurd!

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Don't Cross Country have invisible reservations though? I seem to recall that you can sit in a seat, then someone joining the train later can suddenly reserve it and board and the electronic reservation display LCD will change! I think that is absurd too, but it is their policy! I'm glad other TOCs haven't gone down this route

maniacmartin said:

Don't Cross Country have invisible reservations though?

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Yes, they do (Sorry, I was adding this to my post as you replied)

maniacmartin said:

I seem to recall that you can sit in a seat, then someone joining the train later can suddenly reserve it and board and the electronic reservation display LCD will change! I think that is absurd too, but it is their policy! I'm glad other TOCs haven't gone down this route

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Ah but that was mentioned further up the thread, and it has been stated in previous threads that the seats do make it clear that seats may be reserved during the journey. It's not all seats, there's specific seats designated for this purpose, as I understand it (unless it's changed anyway).

The reservation on demand works on XC due to the use of electronic screens.

This is different to when the electronic screens are not correctly displaying reservations, which has the same effect as paper reservation slips not being provided. In such circumstances most TOCs will state reservations do not apply, but XC enforce invisible reservations, meaning that a passenger may have to change seat at every single stop, which is absurd.

mrkjd said:

Thanks all for clarifying the situation.

I think 90% of the carriage thought I was the awkward one - but no matter, a lesson learnt. I didn't hear any announcement cancelling reservations but there was an announcement that the train would be running at reduced speed due to line work. An announcement certainly would have helped. Perhaps they turned the train around quickly after arrival so it didn't depart late and chose not to place reserved labels because of this.

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You don't specify what you mean by "filled up".

If there were other seats available then you could have been the "bigger man" (not to be confused with The Big Man) and moved with good grace. If the reservation holder had Advance tickets then they might be worried that sitting in a seat other than the reserved seat would be in violation of the T&Cs of their ticket - which is technically true. There being much hype about people being stung for not sticking to these T&Cs, this worry would be understandable.

Morally you may be in the right but at the end of the day, it's a judgement call you have to make yourself.

mrkjd said:

I had a quick look at the NRCoC to see if it shed any light on reservation validity and couldn't find anything either.

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Ok, found what I was looking for, it's Byelaw 19 (my emphasis):

Railway Byelaws said:

19 Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

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So what consitutes 'a notice'? I would say that is the reservation slip affixed to the seat, or an electronic display. But not a seat reservation coupon held by a passenger. Discuss.

Just a thought. We know from the NRCoC that if a reservation isn't honoured, one is entitled to a full refund (no admin fee deducted) of their train ticket if they decide not to travel. This, I presume, includes advance tickets. However, is there an approved mechanism by which an advance ticket holder can instead choose to catch a later train, other than missing their booked train and hoping the guard of the next service gives them permission to board?

snail said:

So what consitutes 'a notice'? I would say that is the reservation slip affixed to the seat, or an electronic display. But not a seat reservation coupon held by a passenger. Discuss.

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I don't think that there's a discuss about it. If reservations aren't indicated in some way on the train, then reservations cannot be honoured or enforced.

If you can reserve a seat already occupied by a passenger part way through the train's journey, is it possible to reserve a seat on board by registering it with the guard?

This could well create more problems than it solves, but then an unexpected reservation from an intermediate stop is the major problem.

You don't specify what you mean by "filled up".

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The train was otherwise full, in fact very little standing room and my wife's seat next to mine wasn't subject to any reservation. You are right about the moral element - I would certainly have given up the seat for more immobile people than myself etc - but this character's tone did nothing to motivate my moral compass!

So what consitutes 'a notice'? I would say that is the reservation slip affixed to the seat, or an electronic display. But not a seat reservation coupon held by a passenger. Discuss.

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Snail's quote of Bylaw 19 is pretty plain. The passenger's ticket is NOT the reservation, merely a ticket showing the holder has entitlement. Seems to me the "reservation" is the label/slip/electronic note on the seat. In this case the train company appear not to have processed reservations so the reservation holder should complain to the train company - not the person in the seat.

So Virgin XC enforce an "invisible reservations" policy? Can such a policy supersede Bylaw 19? Is it specifically in the Virgin TOCs, and if it is, does it constitute fair contract? Does this invisible policy only apply to specific seats which are clearly identified as subject to on-the-fly reservation (in which case it would be reasonable to expect to have to move at some point).

This does raise the question as to whether a train company can reserve a seat that is already taken by an existing passenger part way through their journey on that train (such as when the electronic display is fixed or comes on). My opinion is that a journey is a contract and once the contract has commenced (ie the train company are taking you from A to B) then they cannot insist you move for the purpose of complying with a third party's reservation contract as long as the original sitter was not breaching TOCs up to that point. Virgin's contract with that third party has nothing to do with the sitter's contract with Virgin. Unless there was a compelling reason such as train safety or security of course.

The topic of seat reservations is always a debatable subject. If a passenger reserves a seat, and there is no reservation ticket inserted into the seat, then it is a problem. For example, I travelled on the 1654 Bristol TM to Cardiff service around two weeks ago with a friend (I think we had reservations in Coach B, seats 79 and 80, IIRC). This is a VERY busy train, which FGW still insist three carriages is enough – the answer is it’s not, quite frankly, but that’s another topic and irrelevant to this case. Anyway, 79 had the reservation label, but 80 didn't, so someone sat there. I noticed this before we got on the train, as we were one of the last on, through the window of the train whilst boarding as I noticed we were right at the end of the carriage where the doors were. I then had to challenge the passenger sat in my seat who obviously (and understandably) was not happy. I had to show them my seat reservation ticket that goes with the booking. They did move, and I did feel sorry for them. I feel that is fair enough to show them your seat reservation booking, as the passenger in question shouldn't have to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Now what really gets on my pip, and, unfortunately to say, where I have lost my temper with certain passengers, is when people sit in a reserved seat, despite the fact that one can clearly see it is reserved. In fairness, I am a bit more understanding if an elderly or a disabled passenger made this mistake, as it is obviously a lot more difficult, but a businessman (who I absolutely despise on trains anyway) did this to me last week and it was most irritating. It really is not difficult to see that a seat is reserved; a lot of businessmen, who I find highly ignorant, think they can just sit there anyway and that it is a first-come first-serve basis. Unfortunately, in the case of reserved seats, it isn't.

I am also a fan of CrossCountry's ten minute reservation system, which I do use often (despite the fact there is only one XC service in each direction on the route I use). However, I must sympathise with people who are turfed out when they least expect it. I think the technology should be advanced enough to automatically display a reservation on the screen on board the train as soon as the text is sent. I find it very unfair that a person who sits in an unreserved seat (a person who has clearly checked all seats to see if they are free) sits their understandably within their rights and then has to be turfed out. I don’t think CrossCountry’s team thought about this when designing the idea.

Also on this topic - why do some train companies insist on making seat reservation a day before? If I get the 2023 Portsmouth to Cardiff for example, and I ask for a seat reservation at 9am, does it really take eleven hours to process my reservation? (Apologies for my ignorance if this is the case; I genuinely do not know but I can't really see how it takes such a long time to process).

I'd be most interested to see people views/opinions on the subject.

DanTrainMan185 said:

Now what really gets on my pip, and, unfortunately to say, where I have lost my temper with certain passengers, is when people sit in a reserved seat, despite the fact that one can clearly see it is reserved. In fairness, I am a bit more understanding if an elderly or a disabled passenger made this mistake, as it is obviously a lot more difficult, but a businessman (who I absolutely despise on trains anyway) did this to me last week and it was most irritating. It really is not difficult to see that a seat is reserved; a lot of businessmen, who I find highly ignorant, think they can just sit there anyway and that it is a first-come first-serve basis. Unfortunately, in the case of reserved seats, it isn't.

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A friend and I were once boarding a busy train from York to London with walk-up tickets and no reservation (as we were ‘playing the day by ear’, so to speak). We spent several minutes walking up the train looking for free, unreserved seats, but couldn't find any. Eventually I found a pair that were reserved from York to London, so I decided we should sit in them but be prepared for the fact that the ‘owner’ might turn up in a minute. I chose to risk it because it had been a few minutes since the train began boarding (in fact I think it was on the move by this time), and not everyone turns up for their reserved train anyway, particularly if they too are using a walk-up ticket. So do be mindful that people might choose to sit in a reserved seat deliberately – but with the intention of giving it up if the person it's intended for arrives.

Be3G said:

...because it had been a few minutes since the train began boarding (in fact I think it was on the move by this time), and not everyone turns up for their reserved train anyway, particularly if they too are using a walk-up ticket. So do be mindful that people might choose to sit in a reserved seat deliberately – but with the intention of giving it up if the person it's intended for arrives.

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I think it's fair enough to go for an empty reserved seat if it's still vacant when the train departs, and the train is not so busy that they might still turn up.

Sitting in it beforehand though, is just chancing it, and whilst you might move, not everyone is so good!!

At least the VT/XC electronic displays mean there's no bit of paper for the less honest passengers to remove.