Scotrail - RMT Strike Ballot

O L Leigh said:

I did. That was the first place I headed but, as I said, I only found one of them.

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Well, they are all there.

O L Leigh said:

I am finding it hard to address what you're saying because it keeps shifting around. One moment you're interested in the way unions work and the next you're not.

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Not at all. For the avoidance of doubt, I really don't care how the union works. I'm not a member. But I can form an informed opinion from what I have read and observed - and comment on it. And there are things which the union is doing which are (in my opinion) counter-productive.

O L Leigh said:

the way that the media (mis)report these interactions

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Sorry, that's a cop-out. You cannot blame the media for everything. The language that RMT uses on its own website has not been spun by an unsympathetic media. The language used tends to be inflammatory and not conciliatory.

O L Leigh said:

Relations have to improve on BOTH sides before your perception or impression of the railways improves.

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Agreed. And I have said more than once that both employers and employees need to work on this. Unfortunately if it turns into a case of "we won't change until management change too", then nothing will ever change.

O L Leigh said:

And for me this is where the confrontation comes in. How can you judge something without understanding it?

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I don't think I have "judged", as that's quite a confrontational term. I don't need to understand every nuance of employer-employee interaction to get a general impression that's enough to form a valid opinion. (In the same way, you don't need to understand every nuance of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in order to make observations about how changing the language used when each side speaks about/to each other could prove to be productive.)

I'm not here to solve all the industrial relations problems in the rail industry. But I can comment on a few things which seem obvious to me: things that I reckon are not helping the situation and unless they are changed mean that the negative cycle is unlikely to be broken.

O L Leigh said:

So for all the good he does, Bob Crow becomes a figure of fun, the big bad bogeyman spouting rhetoric from the 1970s who stops the trains and tubes from running. We could easily apply the same test to almost any public figure, and that is exactly what the media does, making any name a by-word for almost anything they want.

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Well yes, Bob Crow is the media's pantomime villain. But I have already explained how a change from confrontational language to more conciliatory language will help change that image. Surely you realise that his "spouting rhetoric from the 1970s" means that some people don't take him seriously - and that if he stopped doing so, he would no longer be such a figure of fun and may actually gain public support.

O L Leigh said:

The problem is that to answer either of those questions you have to try and understand what happens inside the industry and the dealings between TOCs and their employees. Unfortunately, your refusal to engage in the discussion and to persist with your impressions, perceptions and interpretations is stifling the debate.

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Again with the inflammatory language - "refusal to engage". Sorry I don't agree. I don't need to understand everything.

I have made some observations and suggestions. You can take them at face value. if you think they have merit, speak to your union about changing their style to one that is less confrontational. That is something that you can do - nether of us can do anything about what management do. I believe that becoming less confrontational in their public comments is the first step towards a more harmonious working relationship. That's all: no more, no less. You can dismiss my suggestions if you wish. But for change to happen someone needs to do something.

As you have quoted selectively I shall assume that you in agreement with at least some of what I've said.

My opinion is that you are naive. If you truly believe that the way language is used will change anything then I fear you are mistaken. While language can create perceptions it cannot in itself create the problems that lead to the breakdown in industrial relations. And why should the unions be concilliatory towards the TOCs if the TOC has already shown itself willing and capable of acting outside of their own procedures and policies and denied members of staff the rights enshrined in their terms of service, as set down by the TOC itself?

What seems obvious to you as an outside observer might not necessarily be accurate and, therefore, your perceptions could easily be faulty.

As for the media, I don't blame them for the problems faced by railstaff. But what it does do is skew the perception of members of the travelling public, such as yourself. While I personally feel that the RMT use language that perhaps goes beyond what I feel necessary, the very fact that occasionally we have to go on strike would be enough to make the media turn an unsympathetic eye on the industry.

Your observations and suggestions are noted. Thank you for them. I have been at pains to try to point out to you why they are unrealistic, and I hope that my objections have been given equal weight to that which you expect me to give to your words rather than being dismissed as confrontational rhetoric. I will happily speak to my union if you would be kind enough to remind the TOCs that they are expected to honour the agreements reached with their staff representatives and that their employees are entitled to the protections offered by the procedures set out by their employers in their conditions of service. This is what will improve industrial relations, not a change to more concilliatory language.

O L Leigh

O L Leigh said:

As for the media, I don't blame them for the problems faced by railstaff. But what it does do is skew the perception of members of the travelling public,

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In this case the media aren't having to do any skewing though are they? Did you miss the point transmanche raised about the language the RMT and Bob Crow use on their website? And take a look at some of the television news items that feature Brother Bob, there's no media skewing going on there. He really does appear to know no other way than confrontational language.

When I hear of news of yet another dispute involving RMT members (and they come along with alarming frequency) my first port of call is the RMT website to read their press release on the matter. My opinion is therefore not clouded by media skewing.

The rail industry is generally in pretty good shape. Only the RMT seem to want to drag it back to the dark ages.

transmanche said:

FWIW, I wouldn't say that rail staff should never take industrial action. It's just that the threat of industrial action appears to be used more than in many other industries. And it's the apparent reliance of it as a negotiating tactic that I would question.

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It does 'appear' to in your words but I would strongly question weather the threat if actual industrial action is more on the railways. It depends how you define threat.

Technically every year or 2 when the company enter into pay negotiations with the union there is a realistic threat of industrial action and I have seen it reported in the media before that strikes are possible 'in the summer' for example as pay talks are reported as not going well. This dosnt mean there has even been a ballot. In any pay talks or similar, industrial action is a possible (all be it the worst possible) outcome and that is the same for any industry with a union.

I worked for a TOC where the bbc news reported drivers were striking between Xmas and new year a few years ago due to bank holiday arrangements. There hadn't been a ballot and it was the first that any if us drivers and our aslef reps knew of it. What the bbc had actually got hold of was that there were talks about the bank holiday arrangements and that they hadn't been going very well so straight away they assumed strikes over Xmas. There was never a ballot and none were ever planned. We didn't strike.

So in short I don't think you are correct that the strike tactic is used more on the railways-its just reported more even if not true as its a good story to sell papers to the morning commuters. After all no one will buy a paper to read about the possibility of a 1 day walk out in February by HMRC staff will they-its unlikely to have much impact on the individual commuter.

I do take the point about Bob Crow's use of language, but he's just a mouthpiece - ultimately it's the company council reps who will do the real talking round a table with management, and most of those reps are pretty good at negotiating without the need to sound off! Bob Crow has no real involvement, other than being a mouthpiece on the news.

aylesbury said:

Now their comrades in London LU are striking on Boxing day it must be contagious I wonder where the next actions will be happenning?

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Never let the facts get in the way of a comment huh.....

I believe you will find that it is ASLEF (ie a completely different trade union) which is taking industrial action on the tube!

Quite- notice that on that ASLEF strike the blonde haired bufoon isn't spouting his usual about requiring over half the eligible members to vote- because they did, and of those over 90% of them were in favour of action.

Strike has been called off.

bnm said:

In this case the media aren't having to do any skewing though are they? Did you miss the point transmanche raised about the language the RMT and Bob Crow use on their website? And take a look at some of the television news items that feature Brother Bob, there's no media skewing going on there. He really does appear to know no other way than confrontational language.

When I hear of news of yet another dispute involving RMT members (and they come along with alarming frequency) my first port of call is the RMT website to read their press release on the matter. My opinion is therefore not clouded by media skewing.

The rail industry is generally in pretty good shape. Only the RMT seem to want to drag it back to the dark ages.

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"Rail Industry in good shape!!
Thousands lost their jobs in recent years,staff conditions continually being eroded! Not good shape if you have been in the industry and now find yourself out of work and in some instances owed thousands of pounds by an employer that went bust!

Sadsmileyface:1304543 said:

Strike has been called off.

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Yes, good news all round! Merry Christmas!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20783597

ScotRail workers have called off strike action which had been due to take place on 22 December and Christmas Eve.

The RMT union held talks with the company in an effort to resolve the dispute sparked by the sacking of ticket examiner Scott Lewis.

Details of the incident involving Mr Lewis had been disputed.

ScotRail said that it was "delighted" the strike was off and that services would be working normally over the festive period.

A spokesman said: "We are delighted that common sense has prevailed and the threat of industrial action has been lifted.

"It is the right decision. Our customers can look forward to normal services over Christmas and to travel to be with family and friends."

An RMT spokesman said: "RMT can confirm that industrial action on ScotRail has been called off as a satisfactory agreement has now been reached between the union and the company."

Meanwhile, in a separate dispute, management from CrossCountry trains have been in talks with RMT officials, attempting to avert a strike planned for Friday which would affect their services on the East Coast Mainline.

CrossCountry described the talks as "constructive" and said proposals for resolving the outstanding issues had been forwarded to the RMT's executive committee with a recommendation to call off the proposed industrial action

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"RMT can confirm that industrial action on ScotRail has been called off as a satisfactory agreement has now been reached between the union and the company."

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I wonder what that agreement is.

Minimum cash payout and the dismissal changed to a resignation on his record, i'd imagine.

I think both sides knew that was the best they could possibly hope for, and that it was unwise to drag it on to strike action and come away empty handed.

He has another job anyway.

You imagine? Or you hope, more likely? It must stick in your craw. bye everyone.

CarterUSM said:

You imagine? Or you hope, more likely? It must stick in your craw. bye everyone.

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...what?

How very wicked that the RMT has cancelled the strike action, they wont win any friends doing this, that bloody Bob Crow and his ilk are causing mayhem to millions and millions of passengers, doesnt he realise that his staff are paid a Kings ransom. Shocking they should shut this union down.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=167254

Is that "wicked" in the modern vernacular, to mean "good"?

Sadsmileyface said:

Is that "wicked" in the modern vernacular, to mean "good"?

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I will let you draw your own conclusions on that. Not that i would need to know what they are anyway.

I'm assuming it must because otherwise, your post doesn't make any sense.

The whole thread hangs on whether ScotRail have been forced to do the right thing by a show of Union solidarity, or whether they've been bullied into giving RMT a "victory" by inappropriate use of a strike threat.

Everyone will have their own view on this as has been amply demonstrated; mine is that you cannot even make an informed guess because neither side has been at all transparent. All the PR has been straight out of rentaquote.

313103 said:

How very wicked that the RMT has cancelled the strike action, they wont win any friends doing this, that bloody Bob Crow and his ilk are causing mayhem to millions and millions of passengers, doesnt he realise that his staff are paid a Kings ransom. Shocking they should shut this union down.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=167254

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We are paid kings ransoms????? (well I must be his "ilk" as I am a proud RMT Union member WoW! I must give my Gardener, legions of housekeepers etc a bonus


wait a minute

I pay an average mortgage

I pay tax

I get nowt free from this or any government

and I struggle to keep 2 cars on the road (both over 10 years old)

This Kings ransom goes so far

Sorry Sarcasm isn't really my strong point lol

As the strike is now off it would seem an appropriate time to close the thread.