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Class 319's Brochure

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Skimble19

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IMHO that new cab is hideous.. I can understanding trying to trick passengers into thinking it's a new train, but don't use that design! May also want to replace the windows, as they may get a bit suspicious when none of them open!
 
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Class377/5

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Even more bizzare that some are still in Southern livery (albeit with FCC branding) even though they transferred to FCC nearly four years ago.

Remember they were supposed to be started to be withdrawn by now and get a fully refurishment so there's no money especially as technically it's the last year of the franchise.

Makes more sense to show them in a current livery than one they would never wear in the future surely.

But does it make sense to show the new cab then? As for never wear, they will be in Northern livery soon. Or at least some ill be.

IMHO that new cab is hideous.. I can understanding trying to trick passengers into thinking it's a new train, but don't use that design! May also want to replace the windows, as they may get a bit suspicious when none of them open!

Better than the current one.
 
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tom1649

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New cab looks really ugly in my opinion, even worse than what they did to the 365s.
 

Skimble19

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Must admit I also thought the smiley 365 cab was an improvement on the fairly simple Networker cab.
 

WestCountry

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As do I. Great-looking units now, the original Networkers are rather ugly to me... :D

However, that proposed 319 front is hideous. Nothing wrong with the existing one anyway, unless they want gangways.:roll:
 

asylumxl

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How about doing something about the rickety doors on them. The loud bang they make when a train passes at speed has probably caused many people to almost empty their bowels...

Most regular commuters aren't phased by the sound though.
 

Manchester77

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I think the brochure is a good idea they should do them for more trains
I don't mind the new front end I prefer it I find the current one makes the trains look wrinkly :lol:
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Almost certainly not considering they are getting brand new stock. Why would they want a handful of old stock which is almost certainly incompatible with whatever they decide on.

A lot depends on how the Thameslink stock gets cascaded (eg whether GW gets 319s or new stock).
But I wouldn't say it was a given that ME will get new trains if there is a viable dual-voltage alternative lying spare.
The new EMUs Southern are going to order also complicate the picture.
 
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Goatboy

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I found this one even more interesting:

http://www.porterbrook.com/downloads/brochures/Mk3 Brochure.pdf

The Mk3 coach, be it in Locomotive Hauled
Coaching Stock (LHCS) or High Speed Train
(HST) configuration, remains the standard
by which others are judged when it comes to
passenger comfort

The absence of any under-floor power equipment
allows the air conditioning system to be well insulated
from the passenger area, providing a very quiet
passenger environment, typically 5 dB quieter than
under-floor engined stock. Noise has been proven
to be a major factor in passenger fatigue over longer
distances so reducing it makes a significant difference
to the passenger’s perception of the journey.
Many modern vehicles have adopted a “tilt profile” even
though they do not actually tilt, but the Mk3 exploits the
full loading gauge. For the passenger this means larger
luggage racks, more available space and a generally
better ambience than is available on newer trains.

Good to see some in the industry still do appreciate and value passenger comfort.
 

RobShipway

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If the 319's go to either Northern or the GW line, they will be lighter than they are now as they will not require the 3rd rail DC equipment to be kept as they will then purely be working overhead AC, other than any that may end up in Merseyside.
 

ukrob

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A lot depends on how the Thameslink stock gets cascaded (eg whether GW gets 319s or new stock).
But I wouldn't say it was a given that ME will get new trains if there is a viable dual-voltage alternative lying spare.
The new EMUs Southern are going to order also complicate the picture.

It doesn't depend on the cascade at all. The cascade is to Northern.

Merseyrail has already recruited someone in a role to manage the procurement of new stock and has already invited expressions of interest from manufactures. They will almost certainly need steerable axis on the bogies too.

Once you add up the modifications the 319s would need (not least the removal of a coach), the finances wouldn't stack up. Yes, we know it can be done, that doesn't mean it is viable.
 

HSTEd

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Well I think the new traction packages and the LED light units are a good idea....


I don't think shortening them or a new cab moulding is worth it.
The latter especially is just a pointless waste of money.
It has no operational benefits, it is form over function, the essence of today's railway.
 

ainsworth74

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I don't think shortening them or a new cab moulding is worth it.
The latter especially is just a pointless waste of money.
It has no operational benefits, it is form over function, the essence of today's railway.

Quite. The only reason to go for that would be if it also includes a proper gangway.
 

pemma

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One thing to note is the 319s have expensive track access costs, so a 3 car option being doubled up to a 6 car option on busy services could save quite a bit in track access costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It doesn't depend on the cascade at all. The cascade is to Northern.

Only around half of the 319s are 'confirmed' for Northern at present. Nothing official has been said about 319s being used on North TPE routes or replacing 32xs currently at Northern. At present the other half are due to go to FGW unless it's confirmed that they'll get new trains instead.
 

ukrob

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Only around half of the 319s are 'confirmed' for Northern at present. Nothing official has been said about 319s being used on North TPE routes or replacing 32xs currently at Northern. At present the other half are due to go to FGW unless it's confirmed that they'll get new trains instead.

I know. In the context of the thread I thought it was clear that my point was the cascade was to Northern as opposed to Merseyrail, not that Northern were getting them all.
 

fgwrich

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Well I think the new traction packages and the LED light units are a good idea....


I don't think shortening them or a new cab moulding is worth it.
The latter especially is just a pointless waste of money.
It has no operational benefits, it is form over function, the essence of today's railway
.

It actually does. The current cabs are known to be draughty and occasionally leak - a feature of this is the never used emergency exit door on the cab front. They could just weld it up and carry out a slight redesign, but if you do that then you might aswell just start working on a new cab. Another reason for the newer cabs is increased driver protection - something which is increasing on the railways these days (Note the damage done to rolling stock in Northerns fleet after ploughing into trees & landslides like 142094).

A few other things to bear in mind with the 319s moving up to Northern - One is that at present, they cannot & would not be able to keep to the current timings of the services they're intended to operate, hence the proposals for the repowering with AC Equipment and regearing (Lower top speed = better acceleration), and that the leasing costs will be different to the current Northern rolling stock - 142s may well not be the most liked of units, but to coin a phrase they are 'as cheap as chips' to lease, especially when compared to the costs of a 319.

So not actually a waste of money, and if you want the rolling stock to work well and last for a good few years more, then you've got to invest in it!
 
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jopsuk

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Again, worth noting that the brochure, whilst only illustrating one option for the new cab, actually mentions 3 (all based on that design): With a proper gangway, with a similar emergency egress as now, or plain.

I bet the drivers would most like the last of those... nice spacious cab, much less chance of leaks/draughts.
 

starrymarkb

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Is the cab not just a bolt on moulding? I doubt it would be that expensive per unit if done in bulk. (Plus it could potentially be fitted to other Mk3 stock)...
 

Surreyman

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One thing to note is the 319s have expensive track access costs, so a 3 car option being doubled up to a 6 car option on busy services could save quite a bit in track access costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Only around half of the 319s are 'confirmed' for Northern at present. Nothing official has been said about 319s being used on North TPE routes or replacing 32xs currently at Northern. At present the other half are due to go to FGW unless it's confirmed that they'll get new trains instead.

Idly speculating - 'Half the 319s for Northern' so @ 43 4 car units.
The other half possibly/probably to GW, presumably for Newbury/Oxford - Paddington, thats 38 4 car (or up to 18 8 car units in the peaks - is that figure excessive?
Assuming Crossrail covers all the Reading - Paddington stopping services,
(I am assuming Crossrail will extend to Reading)then apart from the Newbury/Oxford fasts that leaves a small requirement for semi-fast trains from Reading - Paddington & stopping services from Reading to Oxford/Newbury.
The 3 car option might provide a solution for the Windsor/Marlow/Henley branches & Basingstoke - Reading; would probably only require 7/8 units max.
Anyone with more knowledge than me care to expand on the future service pattern post electrifcation
Oh & there is still the question of Rolling stock for South Wales - 319s anyone?
 

pemma

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Idly speculating - 'Half the 319s for Northern' so @ 43 4 car units.
The other half possibly/probably to GW, presumably for Newbury/Oxford - Paddington, thats 38 4 car (or up to 18 8 car units in the peaks - is that figure excessive?

Other people idly speculating have said the 40 x 319/4s could go to FGW and the rest to Northern as FGW will need a less generous half.

The North has also had electrification add-ons e.g. EMUs will be able to run Stalybridge-Liverpool stoppers in the future, when previously it was envisaged that Stalybridge services would be truncated or sent somewhere other than Liverpool, which may still happen on a temporary basis but eventually it will probably be a 2tph EMU service from Stalybridge to Liverpool.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If the 319's go to either Northern or the GW line, they will be lighter than they are now as they will not require the 3rd rail DC equipment to be kept as they will then purely be working overhead AC, other than any that may end up in Merseyside.

Fitting new electrics and traction equipment might reduce weight, but simply removing the '3rd rail DC equipment' will do bugger all to reduce weight of a 319.

One thing to note is the 319s have expensive track access costs, so a 3 car option being doubled up to a 6 car option on busy services could save quite a bit in track access costs....

Of course, a 3-car 319 would be a big reduction in capacity at peak times and 6-car trains would be too long for many platforms (only fitting SDO or lengthening would resolve that, though with SDO you might end up with two coaches carting around thin air pretty much all the time).

It actually does. The current cabs are known to be draughty and occasionally leak...

Can't say I ever noticed they were draughty, but then I didn't get to drive them for that long.
 

westcoaster

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Can't say I ever noticed they were draughty, but then I didn't get to drive them for that long.

The /0's+2's+4's are terrible for draughts, excessive wind noise and leaking all due to the plug doors and their seals, where as the /3's tend to be quiet as the cab door is flush with the unit.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Of course, a 3-car 319 would be a big reduction in capacity at peak times and 6-car trains would be too long for many platforms (only fitting SDO or lengthening would resolve that, though with SDO you might end up with two coaches carting around thin air pretty much all the time).

At some point, Leeds will be wanting some 3-car units for the Airedale line services as platforms 1 & 2 at Shipley cannot be extended beyond 6 cars without it becoming stupidly expensive. Whether 3-car 319s will end up on here is anyone's guess- it could just as likely mean losing the 4th car from some or all the 333s/321s/322s, or some of the 323s coming 'home'...
 

GospelOak117

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At some point, Leeds will be wanting some 3-car units for the Airedale line services as platforms 1 & 2 at Shipley cannot be extended beyond 6 cars without it becoming stupidly expensive. Whether 3-car 319s will end up on here is anyone's guess- it could just as likely mean losing the 4th car from some or all the 333s/321s/322s, or some of the 323s coming 'home'...

Do the 333's not have SDO?
 

pemma

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Of course, a 3-car 319 would be a big reduction in capacity at peak times and 6-car trains would be too long for many platforms

Don't forget the 319s have 20m carriages meaning a 6 car 319 would only be 5m longer than the 5 car 180s that Northern used to use.
 
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