Northern upgrade

caliwag · 4 Jan 2013

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere!

What is the latest on stock for the Northern end of things, given that there have been no Thameslink orders and decanting was the order of the day? The 319s are not compatible with the new OLE, it seems, and the Seimens contract is still not signed! So what is the latest? OK DaFT is a mess but??:roll:

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sprinterguy · 4 Jan 2013

Changing the pantographs on the 319s to be entirely compatible with the new OHLE around Manchester is expected to be an overnight job, not especially difficult to rectify.

Southern are reported to be considering, at the behest of the DfT, beginning the tendering process for 116 new EMU carriages in 4-carriage formation (29 units) with an option for 140 more (35 units), that are widely acknowledged to be for use on Thameslink to release 319s prior to the long-term Siemens rolling stock finally arriving.

Class377/5 · 5 Jan 2013

caliwag said:
Apologies if this is covered elsewhere!

What is the latest on stock for the Northern end of things, given that there have been no Thameslink orders and decanting was the order of the day? The 319s are not compatible with the new OLE, it seems, and the Seimens contract is still not signed! So what is the latest? OK DaFT is a mess but??:roll:

The pan 'isssue' was a story ran by Rail by those who do not understand what they are on about. Pans can be changed overnight so it's an easy fix not the crap rail stated.

As for 319s for Northern, the additional 8x dual voltage 377/6 Southern announced before Christmas will mean an internal cascade to allow 456 to go o SWT and some 377/2 to go to Thameslink to allow FCC to send an initial batch of 318s to Northern in time for the December 2014 timetable change.

Siemens contract is progressing but due to Government delays in awarding it and the choosen set up means the Eurozone problems have added to the delay. We should hear something by the end of next month all going well. But currently Siemens and DfT are awaiting on the banks to ok the deal now.

pemma · 5 Jan 2013

Just to add to the above there is more substantial electrical work planned for the 319s that will take a total of 15 working days according to Porterbrook so RAIL may have thought that was part of the Pantograph issue.

Monty · 5 Jan 2013

Does anyone know what Northern plan to with the 319s regarding door operation by means of a guard? Correct me if I am wrong but are 319s currently set up for DOO? I was thinking that they perhaps may be modified in a similar way to South West Trains 455s where there are guards panels in the passenger saloons to allow guards to release the doors from anywhere on the train, SWT plan to modify the 456s in the same manner aswell.

IanXC · 5 Jan 2013

Monty said:
Does anyone know what Northern plan to with the 319s regarding door operation by means of a guard? Correct me if I am wrong but are 319s currently set up for DOO?

I think I'm right in saying that 180s are set up for the driver to release the doors? I seem to remember Northern fitted intermediate door controls on the 3x 180s they had, and that these controls were removed before they entered FGW service. So I guess unless the working methods change, they'll do likewise.

sprinterguy · 5 Jan 2013

Class377/5 said:
As for 319s for Northern, the additional 8x dual voltage 377/6 Southern announced before Christmas will mean an internal cascade to allow 456 to go o SWT and some 377/2 to go to Thameslink to allow FCC to send an initial batch of 318s to Northern in time for the December 2014 timetable change.

Not much of a thing really as it's no doubt a tiny typo, but just to clarify you presumably mean 317s rather than 318s.

pemma · 6 Jan 2013

IanXC said:
I think I'm right in saying that 180s are set up for the driver to release the doors? I seem to remember Northern fitted intermediate door controls on the 3x 180s they had, and that these controls were removed before they entered FGW service. So I guess unless the working methods change, they'll do likewise.

The 180s only had a 'temporary fix' whereby the guard could release and shut the doors but the SDO feature was disabled. The 4 class 180 services per day which called at Woodsmoor with a short platform had one door manually released and shut by the guard.

Skimble19 · 6 Jan 2013

sprinterguy said:
Not much of a thing really as it's no doubt a tiny typo, but just to clarify you presumably mean 317s rather than 318s.

Sorry to be a pedant, but I wouldn't have thought it would be likely to be 317s, much more likely to be 319s

pemma · 7 Jan 2013

Skimble19 said:
Sorry to be a pedant, but I wouldn't have thought it would be likely to be 317s, much more likely to be 319s

What class 377/5 is getting at is Southern are getting an additional 40 carriages in time for the Dec 2014 timetable change, in 5 car formation i.e. 8 extra trains. They will then be able to sublease 8 of the existing 377/2s to FCC, who can then release 8 x 319s.

The 317s would be able to provide cover while the 319s are being refurbished if required though. Although, I understand there are 7 available - 9 in storage with 2 to be refurbished and to become spot hire units.

W230 · 7 Jan 2013

Monty said:
Correct me if I am wrong but are 319s currently set up for DOO?

Yep. All the 319s were modified some time ago to be DOO only. Originally you would energise the door controls via a BR1B key in the door key switch but they blanked off the DKS panels and removed the ability to be able to control the doors from any other cab than that which was the train was being driven from.

We were told that this was because drivers kept leaving their BR1B in when they were relieved. If the key was left in and the train was then driven from the other end, the driver couldn't open the doors at the first stop. They had to go back up the other end (additional fun on an 8 car) reset the DKS and then go back and reset any MCB's before being able to open the doors!

NXEA! · 7 Jan 2013

Porterbrook is also reportedly looking at shortening the units to 3-cars, due to platform lengths and the like up around Manchester, so its more a case of fitting the units into the infrastructure rather than cutting costs by not maintaining the TSOL. Besides, the TSOL's would likely see another use I imagine, lengthening 150's is one I can think of off the top of my head. Just imagine 3-car 319's; very powerful units and should go like sh*t off a chrome shovel!

Haydn1971 · 7 Jan 2013

Any plans for DMU upgrades for Northern ? Or are we more likely to see no action until the next franchise is let in 2014 ?

Class377/5 · 7 Jan 2013

jcollins said:
What class 377/5 is getting at is Southern are getting an additional 40 carriages in time for the Dec 2014 timetable change, in 5 car formation i.e. 8 extra trains. They will then be able to sublease 8 of the existing 377/2s to FCC, who can then release 8 x 319s.

The 317s would be able to provide cover while the 319s are being refurbished if required though. Although, I understand there are 7 available - 9 in storage with 2 to be refurbished and to become spot hire units.

It's 6 not 8 377/2 to Thameslink as Southern need 6 for themselves and FCC already have 3. The additional eight dual voltage 377/6 are also to part provide cover for the departing 456s.

I haven't been paying much attention but when is the 317 demonstrator due to be shown off?

sprinterguy said:
Not much of a thing really as it's no doubt a tiny typo, but just to clarify you presumably mean 317s rather than 318s.

Oops I meant 319s to Northern in 2014.

NXEA! said:
Porterbrook is also reportedly looking at shortening the units to 3-cars, due to platform lengths and the like up around Manchester, so its more a case of fitting the units into the infrastructure rather than cutting costs by not maintaining the TSOL. Besides, the TSOL's would likely see another use I imagine, lengthening 150's is one I can think of off the top of my head. Just imagine 3-car 319's; very powerful units and should go like sh*t off a chrome shovel!

Shouldn't be o sure it's Manchester they are aiming for as works are on basis of 4 car 319 with platforms lengthened accordingly.

Nym · 7 Jan 2013

Haydn1971 said:
Any plans for DMU upgrades for Northern ? Or are we more likely to see no action until the next franchise is let in 2014 ?

Sod all is on the cards at the moment, only the direct cascades for strengthenging other diesel diagrams, or if it's anything like the Oldham Loop it will result in storing these diesel units as a throwing toys out of pram movment, due to someone not paying for it...

sprinterguy · 7 Jan 2013

Skimble19 said:
Sorry to be a pedant, but I wouldn't have thought it would be likely to be 317s, much more likely to be 319s

Ah, that's a good point. Thank you for your correction to my, umm, attempted correction. :oops:

My mind must have been thinking elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Haydn1971 said:
Any plans for DMU upgrades for Northern ? Or are we more likely to see no action until the next franchise is let in 2014 ?

Similar to what Nym has said, because the Northern franchise was let on a "no growth" basis intended to sweat the existing assets, we will have to wait until after the next franchise has been let in 2014 to witness any DMU upgrades, be it in the form of new trains or through any additional cascades of second-hand ones and refurbishments of existing rolling stock. Although some of the former Northern Spirit units are, slowly, undergoing a little refresh.

YorkshireBear · 7 Jan 2013

Class377/5 said:
Shouldn't be o sure it's Manchester they are aiming for as works are on basis of 4 car 319 with platforms lengthened accordingly.

It could be though, the fact is most stations can be extended to 6 car, but some cent be extended to 8 car, so having 3 car allows doubling up in peaks and also carts around less fresh air in the middle of the day. For an example of this ride a 333 during the day in west yorks! Train to yourself!

Northern upgrade

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