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XC Voyagers debate

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VTDan

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Better than a certain company's Voyagers. :p

Yes I agree before I joined Virgin I hated them with a passion:D
But now it doesn't matter to the drivers what's going on in the trains
they don't hear about it, have to deal with it, it's all left with the Train
Managers.
 
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Yownanymous

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Midland Mainline probabaly won't change their HST's power cars into MTU's
They've already got those awful isit 'Pioneer or Meridians' (can't remember which one).
They'll just get some of the future class 223 or something looking like that.
It's Meridians that MML use, Pioneers are used by Hull Trains.
 

VTDan

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Ok Thanks, I don't see them that often but they look the same don't they?
or am I just being stupid:)
 

mbonwick

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Think they're basically the same as Voyages arn't they; except not built to exactly the same plans (Virgin wouldn't release them?) so are slightly better than Voyagers
 

VTDan

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There you go again Mbonwick ;):D Slating Virgin;)
Yeah they look the same but none of them tilt like the 221
Super Voyagers do they?
 

Techniquest

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Midland Mainline probabaly won't change their HST's power cars into MTU's
They've already got those awful isit 'Pioneer or Meridians' (can't remember which one).
They'll just get some of the future class 223 or something looking like that.

Just a thought...223s don't exist (although it was a proposed numbering for the Pioneers in my 2004 NREA book).

I certainly wouldn't bank on MML MTU'ing anything anytime soon. Of course, the odds are this might change, so the more Valenta action now the better!
 

VTDan

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yep I know 223s don't exist I was being slightly sarcastic because
they had the 220 then 221 then 222 if you see what I mean......
 

thefab444

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Pioneers (what would've become the 223) don't tilt - 222/0s* don't tilt either, but have better interiors than the Voyagers - and some of them are 8 coaches long.

If you ask me, Meridians are much better than Voyagers, especially for the vestibule stink. The Super Voyagers' tilt is pretty much wasted except on Holyhead/Llandudno diagrams, which is a shame, as all the XC ones are timed to run with a 220, though you can make up time easier with a 221.

John

*Are they 222/0s, somewhere I read they were 222/4 and 222/9, but now of course they've been swapped about?
 

ChrisCooper

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Super Voyagers are a bit of a waste on Cross Country since they can only tilt on very small parts of the network, oviously the WCML, and I think Oxford to Banbury. On the other hand, the tilt equipment adds an extra 10t per coach, and this has quite an effect on performance, and infact a 2+7 HST can keep to the same times as a Super Voyager on none tilt parts. MML were originally supposed to be going for tilt on the Meridiens, but sensibly decided against it since on the semi-fasts the Meridiens were ordered for, the extra weight would have been a disadvantage, particularly on the hilly section between Bedford and Leicester, yet the MML is fairly straight, with a few significant curves all at places where semi-fasts are braking for or accelerating from stations. Tilt would likely give quite an advantage on the fast services though.
 

VTDan

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Virgin Voyagers on the Bournemouth via Oxford, BHM, up the east coast to Edinburgh have actually cut HST time by over 45 minutes, and the 221 has been proven to be quicker yes, as between Oxford and Banbury it's able to tilt and between York and Newcastle which speeds up the journey further.
A HST could not be able to keep to the same time as a Super Voyager due to their lack of acceleration. Voyagers have incredibly quick acceleration, which is a main point why journey times are cut.

Those of you living on that line who catch that train would know there only used to be 1 train a day (Bournemouth to Edinburgh) when HSTs served.
Now on the other hand, there are 5 or 6.

To be honest I think the 221s are quite good, but the 220s were a waste of time, money and work.
 

westcoaster

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thats why virgin are keeping the 221's and the 220's going to the new wm franchise iirc (if i am wrong sorry)
 

devon_metro

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Virgin Voyagers on the Bournemouth via Oxford, BHM, up the east coast to Edinburgh have actually cut HST time by over 45 minutes, and the 221 has been proven to be quicker yes, as between Oxford and Banbury it's able to tilt and between York and Newcastle which speeds up the journey further.
A HST could not be able to keep to the same time as a Super Voyager due to their lack of acceleration. Voyagers have incredibly quick acceleration, which is a main point why journey times are cut.

Those of you living on that line who catch that train would know there only used to be 1 train a day (Bournemouth to Edinburgh) when HSTs served.
Now on the other hand, there are 5 or 6.

To be honest I think the 221s are quite good, but the 220s were a waste of time, money and work.

I think if you really drive an HST to the max then you can easily keep to voyager times.

I would rather have high-accelerating 220s with less rattles and 6 coaches rather than the ridiculous 4 on Cross country.
 

VTDan

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I think if you really drive an HST to the max then you can easily keep to voyager times.

I would rather have high-accelerating 220s with less rattles and 6 coaches rather than the ridiculous 4 on Cross country.

HSTs were being pushed to the max and were not doing it.
Which is why Voyagers were bought and it has been proven Voyagers cut the fastest HST time by 45 minutes.
I agree about the 4-carriages most people think that is ridiculous including many of the staff at Virgin Trains.
 

ChrisCooper

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Voyagers do have very good acceleration, not suprising since they have a power-weight ratio of about 16hp per tonne, compared to 12hp per tonne on a HST. The Super Voyagers though have an extra 10tonnes per coach, and this brings the acceleration down to around 13hp per tonne. Ok, that's still higher than a HST, and they are slightly faster, but I never said they wern't, but with slack taken in and hard driving a 2+7 HST can keep to Super Voyager times one none tilt sections, and they did. The figures arn't that accurate anyway, since that's engine power, not power at rail, so the figures for both should be lower, but the Voyager will be effected more due to higher auxiliary loads, all of which are coming from the engines. Super Voyagers are an advantage on sections where they can tilt, but away from those areas they will loose out to Voyagers, and are barely better than HSTs. Where a 220 and 221 are coupled, the 221 can't tilt anyway, and holds back the 220 due to the extra weight. Actually, if you take a look at the railway performance society fastest times, where HST and 221 times are listed together there is little in them, e.g Darlington to Newcastle has 24:59 for a 2+7HST and 24:57 for a 221 (23:57 is the fastest for a 91). Another example is the times from Cheltenham to Birmingham, up the Lickey Incline. Fastest HST is 32:55, fastest 221 is 32:53.
 

Guinness

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thats why virgin are keeping the 221's and the 220's going to the new wm franchise iirc (if i am wrong sorry)

Most 221s are going to West Coast for Holyhead Services, which will Tilt. Before the service commences they will get upgraded Kitchen Facilities to offer a similar FC service to Pendolinos.

220s will stay with XC.
 

ChrisCooper

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The 221s will have an advantage on the WCML since they can take corners faster due to tilt (although not as fast as Pendolinos), and the longer runs means performance loss due to extra weight isn't such an issue. Also, there performance is actually very similar to the Pendolinos, which arn't as fast from a stand as Voyagers and Meridiens.
 

VTDan

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Just a quick point.
1 extra Super Voyager is going for the Holyhead. No they wont be lengthened at all.
The rest are staying for XC.

I don't mean to be rude but before you say things about Virgin Trains
could you please get your facts from a reliable source as it is quite irritating.
 

thefab444

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Supposedly the "Short Four" 221s were for Euston - Holyhead runs, but they nearly always turn up on XC workings in favour of a normal length 221 on a Holyhead.

As I far as I was told, VTDan, Pendolinos are rumoured to be coming off the Holyhead turns, but the important of Wales weren't gonna be pleased at loosing the nice FC features. Hence more 221s to allow 10-car trains, and provision of better catering.
 

westcoaster

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Just a quick point.
1 extra Super Voyager is going for the Holyhead. No they wont be lengthened at all.
The rest are staying for XC.

I don't mean to be rude but before you say things about Virgin Trains
could you please get your facts from a reliable source as it is quite irritating.

umm more than one mate, new hourly service to chester, and some continue to holyhead, when new tt starts next year iirc.
this is a forum not a court, some fact's are wrong some right, thats why we discuss things, o and this has been in all the mags for a little while.
 

1VWC

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I think if you really drive an HST to the max then you can easily keep to voyager times.

The current VXC HST diagram is operating to Voyager timings. It can keep to them, but if a delay occurs for whatever reason it struggles to make the time back; something which a Voyager would be more able to do...
 

Darandio

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That would be the doors, Its amazing the number of people leave them open on fGW services!

And on that note I forward my self for a job as a HST door shutterer person. I will travel along the route and get off at every station to shut the doors at a rapid pace. Am sure WSXFan would apply for this job as well, as long as the HST's were Valenta powered.
 

87015

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I'm not a great fan, but there are worse trains out there...

The problem is 4 or 5-car DMUs are just plain unsuitable for Bournemouth-Edinburgh or Penzance-Manchester. The 'minibus theory' didn't work at Sprinterisation, and it was no surprise here it didn't work again at Operation/Fiasco Princess. When all the bits inside work and its not rattling too much, inside they are reasonable, a step above the Pendos.

222s are very nice inside - whack the 220s to that standard for short inter-regional routes such as Brum-Norwich, Notts-Cardiff, Liverpool-Newcastle, with 221s on mini-XC turns Bristol-York/Reading-Mamchester, and then HSTs/HST2s on the long-distance true XC stuff would be much better fleet management IMO.
 
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