Major incident: Train derailed 23 Jan 13 in Manchester

PR1Berske · 23 Jan 2013

455driver said:
Hell yeah, I was in stitches and cringing all at the same time reading it, the only thing missing was the "once upon a time" at the beginning.

It doesnt look good though does it, one bloke wafting the water around while everyone else looks to be on PNB.

As for the 455 driving, you are very trusting arent you!

You've taken that opinion from a 5 second clip in addition to your prejudices. You don't know, and have no way of knowing, if the 5-seconds were at the start, middle or end of the procedure.

Continuing to slur those who worked on the accident, including using insulting slang terms, dilutes your argument to the point of irrelevance.

RailUK Forums

broadgage · 23 Jan 2013

tcm1106 said:
Rumours of the derailment being caused by buffer-locking. Doesn't explain the fire though...

Derailment, no matter how caused, can easily start a fire, usually by the puncturing of the fuel tank, the escaping fuel being easily ignited by sparks and friction as the loco is dragged through ballast or against structures.
Alternatively the fire can be started by electric cables either within the loco or on the trackside being damaged in the mishap.

30909 · 23 Jan 2013

gimmea50anyday said:
Can't help it. Accident investigation is a big interest of mine. Would love to leave my current tail lamp role and makes career out of it!

Before the professionals line up for a pop at me a view of an interested amateur, I wonder what the photographic evidence might suggest?
One or more photos show Heras fencing, a heap of very tired looking sleepers, what appear to be broken pipes or conduit all in the vicinity of a girder bridge. Recent weather conditions have been excessively wet and cold while work erecting OHL equipment has been taking place. From that you might speculate that there are drainage issues, recent PW work, and the second of two 100 ton locos passing over in quick succession could conceivably been too much for the track or track bed and down it went and dragged just far enough to rupture tanks or cause a battery fire. Oh and diesel will ignite without vaporising under pressure if there is an ignition source and a suitable wick of combustible material like a wooden sleeper especially if already impregnated with a volatile substance such as creosote . However I'm an amateur so should keep my opinions to myself, while the professionals are at each other's throats.

hairyhandedfool · 23 Jan 2013

calc7 said:
At Manchester Piccadilly, passengers for "Scotland" were being told to go to York and take a service from there. I know services through Warrington were running with delays, but is that because they don't want to tell people to walk from Central to Bank Quay? It's a heck of a long diversion to Glasgow.

The problem with sending people to Warrington for the north is that there are fewer connections that way and the already busy commuter trains will be carrying those that can get home without using a bus and usually use the Chat Moss services.

snail said:
There are no direct services from Victoria but there is an hourly North Wales service direct to Bank Quay from Piccadilly.

The Arriva train to North Wales goes through Ordsall Lane Junction and as a result is replaced by a bus between Piccadilly and Newton-le-Willows.

yummy125 · 23 Jan 2013

Does 47 500 look repair-able or is it heading for Booth's..?

hairyhandedfool · 23 Jan 2013

I think they'll have to assess the internal damage before anyone can know that.

D1009 · 23 Jan 2013

This is pure speculation on my part, but I reckon WCRC have other 47s currently not workable that it would be easier to repair than 47500.

Crossover · 23 Jan 2013

Glad to hear the crew are all OK. Heard about this on the radio, but they were saying it was a freight.

gimmea50anyday said:
Well there's still a 47 at the other end, amateur footage of loco burning you could clearly hear the other loco ticking over.

Depends on nature of damage. Might have to recover by road if wheel sets are knackered

If 47's are like the 57's, the clicking can keep going for a while as I believe it is caused by air escaping from the braking system. I know when stood next to a shut down 57, even after a few hours, it was still clicking every few seconds

TDK said:
That rear loco has a tail lamp that could mean it was being dead hauled the batteries SHOULD be out with the loco being dead hauled. It is too early to speculate however my opinion and only mine it seems like it amy well have been a Battery fire as diesel needs to be vapourised before it catches alight, the investigation will reveal all most likely. Sad day for WC railways and the industry as a whole, thankfully all the crew are safe. Just to add it never ceases to amaze me that some want to know the number of the loco before asking whether there are any injuries!!!!!!

Was just thinking there must be some concern if the loco was dead in tow. Would I be right in thinking the tail lamp would suggest as much, as a running loco would have the ability to display tail lamps?

BrummyBoy · 23 Jan 2013

ushawk said:
Picture taken off Twitter - looks very serious. All trains of course suspended between Salford Crescent and Manchester Oxford Rd

Forgive me if this seems a stupid question but how did the fire engine get that close to the tracks?

doubleamber · 23 Jan 2013

MCW said:
glad crew is ok an all that.

gutted about 500, beast of an engine that one.

A lose of any Type 4 is a tragady.

455driver · 23 Jan 2013

BrummyBoy said:
Forgive me if this seems a stupid question but how did the fire engine get that close to the tracks?

There is an access point further along which allows vehicles to access the track, it is mainly used for road/rail machinery etc.

Phil6219 · 23 Jan 2013

This is pure speculation on my part, but I reckon WCRC have other 47s currently not workable that it would be easier to repair than 47500.

47768 would be the most likely candidate based on outward appearances, followed by 47772. The rest look rather decrepid, though that's purely based on outward appearances and as we know, duffs can run even when looking like death.

My concern lies with the new collection of Zombies which have been acquired by West Coast, I would hope that they hold on to duffs regardless but am not really holding my breath.

Phil 8-)

455driver · 23 Jan 2013

Phil6219 said:
47768 would be the most likely candidate based on outward appearances, followed by 47772.

it doesnt really matter what it looks like its what condition the mechanicals (especially wheel sets) are in that counts.

Anyone remember the state 50046 was running around in towards the end of its life, the bodywork was an absolute disgrace but it had an overhauled engine/main generator plus bogies with new wheel sets, hence why it lasted so long in service and was then stripped of everything for it to resurrect D400!

weastebusdepot · 23 Jan 2013

I went for a look this evening, and a structural engineer was inspecting and photographing the underside of the bridge 47500 is resting on top off to check if it's done any damage.

He seemed to believe that a rail crane will be brought in tomorrow to put 47500 back on the tracks and it will be removed by rail. But for the moment its "buried in the ballast" and nothing happening overnight.

I was suprised the Northern services from Liverpool and ATW services from Chester/Llandudno are terminating at Earlestown rather than running as far as Eccles and turning back which happened last time there was an incident of cable theft at Ordsall Lane.

BestWestern · 23 Jan 2013

hairyhandedfool said:
I think they'll have to assess the internal damage before anyone can know that.

The high quality video clip on the previous page shows vast quantities of foam being aimed in though the loco's grilles - as one would expect - so it would likely be reasonable to suggest that internal damage is quite likely. Maybe it'll be a lucky engine and get away with it, but somehow I think it doubtful. A real shame

As has already been said though, we can at least presumably be thankful for a healthy supply of spares if the worst does happen.

Phil6219 · 23 Jan 2013

it doesnt really matter what it looks like its what condition the mechanicals (especially wheel sets) are in that counts.

Indeed, I just meant that those two would appear the most likely candidates as some of the other stuff there (47 wise) have been robbed of parts and are in such a state it would make 50046 look like it was ex-works

Two photo's on Facebook offering a close up look from another angle

Photo 1

Photo 2

Phil 8-)

hairyhandedfool · 23 Jan 2013

weastebusdepot said:
....I was suprised the Northern services from Liverpool and ATW services from Chester/Llandudno are terminating at Earlestown rather than running as far as Eccles and turning back which happened last time there was an incident of cable theft at Ordsall Lane.

Newton-le-Willows and Earlestown have staff on hand in the afternoon and evening, Eccles doesn't, there is also signalled moves to get trains turned round at Newton and Earlestown, whereas it is not a signalled move at Eccles.

455driver · 23 Jan 2013

Shame really I always liked 47500, well considering its a duff and I am 50 man.

Never nice to see a loco go out this way.

scotsman · 23 Jan 2013

507 001 said:
I noticed that, thought it was quite lazy to be honest, a quick google would have given them the details they needed

If you don't know it, don't say it! Simple rule all journalists use!

455driver · 23 Jan 2013

scotsman said:
If you don't know it, don't say it! Simple rule all journalists use!

I thought it was "if you dont know it, make it up"!

BestWestern · 23 Jan 2013

scotsman said:
If you don't know it, don't say it! Simple rule all journalists use!

Really?! I thought it was more along the lines of "If you don't know it, just make it up"!

455driver · 23 Jan 2013

Beat ya!

Prodigy · 23 Jan 2013

How do I get reimbursed for taxi fare? Had to get taxi because of cancellations.

455driver · 23 Jan 2013

Did the railway book the taxi for you or did you do it off your own back?

Prodigy · 24 Jan 2013

455driver said:
Did the railway book the taxi for you or did you do it off your own back?

Off own back with some neighbours... I guess that means I won't be getting anything right?

ainsworth74 · 24 Jan 2013

Very unlikely, you can try your luck but I wouldn't expect anything at all as they'll simply say you should have followed instructions/done what the railway was laying on to deal with disruption.

455driver · 24 Jan 2013

Probably, if there were staff or a help point and you didnt use it then you will probably have to stand the cost, give them a call in the morning and see what they say, you never know.

ash39 · 24 Jan 2013

I don't understand all the comments saying the fuel tank could have ruptured and sparks ignite the fuel to cause the fire... diesel is only flammable under compression isn't it?

455driver · 24 Jan 2013

No it is heat that ignites the diesel.

Compressing the air (in the cylinder) heats it up, the diesel is injected and the heat causes it to ignite.

ash39 · 24 Jan 2013

Got it, thanks for putting me right on that!

So in theory, heat from friction of the loco underside rubbing on the rails/sleepers could start a fire if there was a fuel leak. I'd have expected the fuel tanks to be a bit stronger though, then again there's a lot of weight and energy involved.

Major incident: Train derailed 23 Jan 13 in Manchester

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