Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes service.

I apologise for asking this, but what is the projected viability of this service as currently run. My own preference will be for the retention of this service. Is there a date not too far in the future that current plans will see this service ending, in the same way as the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service will be replaced by a Liverpool to Newcastle service ?

Why would it end?

Cleethorpes to Manchester Piccadilly only would result in either a very quick turn round at Manchester, or a long layover. There are as many through passengers to the Airport as there are on the other TPE services from Yorkshire.

Remember the eastern side Airports are poor ....
Humberside - few services. No rail connection and poor bus service.
Robin Hood (Finningley, Doncaster) - similarly relatively few flights and needs a bus connection.
Sheffield - Airport closed some years ago.
Therefore Manchester Airport is attractive to people on the east side. From South Yorkshire and North Lincs Manchester is quicker and easier (through train) to get to than either Leeds/Bradford or East Midlands.

Surely Newcastle to Liverpool is to do more with electrification and using Mancester Victoria than catering for the Airport.
Newcastle Airport has quite a selection of flights, and is connected by the Metro.
Leeds/Bradford has a fair number, though it needs a bus connection from Leeds, etc.

brompton rail said:

Why would it end?

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It has been mooted that Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes could be split into two at either Sheffield or Doncaster as part of franchise re-shuffling, but I cannot recall the source for this at the moment.

I travelled on this service both ways last week between Sheffield and Manchester, full and standing both times.

Has there ever been any formal or official suggestions of splitting the route, other than if electrification was to take place over part of the route? Other than if that was to happen, all I have ever seen is fantasy TOC planning by enthusiasts.

From Scunthorpe, it's just as easy (and roughly the same price) to get to Manchester Airport as it is to get to Humberside airport if using public transport. I see no reason for the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport service to bu cut. Perhaps shortened to Manchester Piccadilly, but other than that, I see no need for any changes.

Max said:

It has been mooted that Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes could be split into two at either Sheffield or Doncaster as part of franchise re-shuffling, but I cannot recall the source for this at the moment.

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The source is somewhere on the ORR or DfT websites, but I'm not going to go looking for them, but to me, terminating at Doncaster or Sheffield doesn't make sense. While there isn't many people who do the whole journey from Grimsby/Cleethorpes - Manchester, there are some. The main flows* along the route are Cleethorpes/Grimsby - Doncaster/Sheffield, Scunthorpe - Doncaster/Sheffield/Manchester and Doncaster - Sheffield/Manchester.

The ideal situation in my opinion would be for the TPE service to terminate at Scunthorpe instead, with Scunthorpe - Cleethorpes and the Barton branch handed over to EMT. The reason I keep suggesting this is not because it is local to me, but instead down to the fact that the TPE service is usually reasonably well loaded from Scunthorpe (especially the 1008 service which is the first valid off peak service to a lot of places), where as the number of passengers from Grimsby, Cleethorpes and Barnetby to Scunthorpe will usually fit into a 153. The alternative is to have the TPE service terminate at Scunthorpe, with hourly Sheffield - Scunthorpe stopper extended to Cleethorpes

Also, there is plenty of room at Scunthorpe for the approaches (from both sides) to be modified, and a new platform (if needed) to be constructed to handle terminating trains.

In my opinion, it's a win-win situation all round. Yes some passengers will lose out, but the main bulk of the passengers are catered for with a (semi) fast service, and TPE get a slightly smaller network, something they are always after.**

* I'm not going on any official figures here, just on my experiences on using the TPE service from Scunthorpe. Some days, the train empties at Doncaster, with more people joining there, other days, most people stay on and carry on to Sheffield and Manchester.

** I saw a post made on wnxx a couple of years ago which was made during some strike action. TPE were only running Manchester - Sheffield/Leeds/Preston to which someone replied that's their dream franchise!

David said:

From Scunthorpe, it's just as easy (and roughly the same price) to get to Manchester Airport as it is to get to Humberside airport if using public transport. I see no reason for the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport service to be cut. Perhaps shortened to Manchester Piccadilly, but other than that, I see no need for any changes.

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David, surely having a service direct to Manchester Airport to enable intending airline passengers an ease of transport for that journey would be somewhat negated by cutting the service back to Manchester Piccadilly. I cannot forsee an airline coach service cutting back its service short of an airport.

As I have already said, this service should not be either split or truncated, but there were discussions to which Max alluded to in his posting that had come to my mind when I opened this particular thread.
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Max said:

It has been mooted that Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes could be split into two at either Sheffield or Doncaster as part of franchise re-shuffling, but I cannot recall the source for this at the moment.

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Max, you appear have to been aware of the same proposals as I had also noted.

Paul Sidorczuk said:

David, surely having a service direct to Manchester Airport to enable intending airline passengers an ease of transport for that journey would be somewhat negated by cutting the service back to Manchester Piccadilly. I cannot forsee an airline coach service cutting back its service short of an airport.

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Various reasons. The MIA - CLE service is very lightly loaded between the airport and Piccadilly. With the South TPE service, there is 9tph between MIA and MAN, and it removes 2 conflicting moves an hour from the station throat, freeing up paths which can then be used for other passenger service to/from MIA that go via P13 or P14, or possibly freight.

Yes, a direct airport service is nice to have, but in this case, I think TPE would be better off just running to Piccadilly.

Another thing, if my suggestion of just MAN - SCU is ever implemented, then that frees up 3 units for strengthening various services as it is roughly 1 hour 45 mins between Scunthorpe and Manchester. Between that and the Scotland service going over to EMUs, that should create enough surplus units to double some services and get rid of the 170s ....

Paul Sidorczuk said:

I cannot forsee an airline coach service cutting back its service short of an airport.

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I'm not really sure how you can compare rail transport and road transport in such a manner David has outlined the reasons above why there is a proposal for rail to do such, how are any of those remotely applicable to coaches?

MattE2010 said:

I'm not really sure how you can compare rail transport and road transport in such a manner David has outlined the reasons above why there is a proposal for rail to do such, how are any of those remotely applicable to coaches?

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The connection that I was at pains to point out was a direct service by both rail and coach into the airport complex without the need for trans-shipment of heavy luggage (at Manchester Piccadilly in the case of rail passengers/ at Chorlton Street for coach passengers) for the ease and comfort for intending airline passengers.

A single young person such as yourself may well see this as something of not much concern to you, but I ask that you envisage a family group with children struggling with all their luggage in such a situation en route to and from Manchester Airport.

Paul Sidorczuk said:

A single young person such as yourself may well see this as something of not much concern to you, but I ask that you envisage a family group with children struggling with all their luggage in such a situation en route to and from Manchester Airport.

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In this case though, it is the (very) few who will benefit that lose out. At Manchester Piccadilly, there are lifts on each platform, plus the travellator to use when changing platforms. Other stations (Scunthorpe for example) have neither. There's an problem straight away, as a family needs to use the footbridge to get the Manchester bound train.

Overall, the majority of people will not notice anything different if the train terminates ay Piccadilly instead of going through to the Airport, and there will still be 8tph between MAN and MIA.

David said:

In this case though, it is the (very) few who will benefit that lose out. At Manchester Piccadilly, there are lifts on each platform, plus the travellator to use when changing platforms.

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I do not wish to enter into posting exchanges over this matter. If I accept that the more easterly stations have few passengers travelling direct to the airport, would you agree that the station of Sheffield with its large population has more passenger potential for Manchester Airport.

I am sure you will regret the loss of a Scunthorpe to Manchester Airport direct rail service when Scunthorpe United have to fly to destinations served by Manchester Airport in future years on a regular basis to all their matches in the Europa League and the Champions League...

Paul Sidorczuk said:

I cannot forsee an airline coach service cutting back its service short of an airport.

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The Eurolines (National Express/Bus Eireann) Leeds-Dublin service is scheduled to call at Manchester Airport but frequently misses out the Airport call due to no booked passengers for the Airport.

jcollins said:

The Eurolines (National Express/Bus Eireann) Leeds-Dublin service is scheduled to call at Manchester Airport but frequently misses out the Airport call due to no booked passengers for the Airport.

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Forgive me, but when was Leeds (as stated in your quote) a calling point on the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport rail service ? Let us not bring extraneous and unconnected matters into the debate.

Anyway, do we see a conspiracy theory formulating on this thread:-
Newcastle to Manchester Airport has already been lost from the forward planning plans.
Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport does not seem to have the loadings from what this thread says
Will the Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport be the next for the axe ?

If so many forum members, usually being a barometer of the British travelling public, wish such services not to call at Manchester Airport, it rather makes the proposed need for a fourth platform there a waste of finance that could be well employed in other parts of the region

I'm sure I read somewhere a year or so ago that there had been an idea of running a Sheffield to Preston service.
Of course it's doubtful it would happen now with Manchester to Preston eventually going to be electrified but is there still some sense in running it through to Barrow in Furness?
Cleethorpes-Sheffield-Manchester-Bolton-Preston may actually see far more through passengers than there currently are to Manchester Airport. I'm always surprised when I travel from Nottingham to friends in Blackpool just how many people get off the Norwich-Liverpool EMT service at Manchester and remain on the platform to board the following Blackpool North train.

Wasn't part of the reason for the Windsor Link in Manchester originally for this type of longer distance service so that passengers didn't have to cross Manchester from Piccadilly to Victoria. There were longer distance trains that had to use slow routes around Manchester as the few times a day Nottingham-Glasgow and East Anglia-Blackpool services once did during the 1980's. As soon as the Windsor Link opened all of these either ceased running or were diverted to Liverpool via Warrington services instead of using it! Apart from Manchester-Scotland services it has only been used by relatively local trains.

Paul Sidorczuk said:

Forgive me, but when was Leeds (as stated in yiour quote) a calling point on the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport rail service ? Let us not bring extraneous and unconnected matters into the debate.

Anyway, do we see a conspiracy theory formulating on this thread:-

Newcastle to Manchester Airport has already been lost
Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport does not seem to have the loadings from what this thread says
Will the Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport be the next for the axe ?

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I'll try not to bring extraneous and unconnected matters into the debate (like Scunthorpe United's Champions League itineracy), but if you consider that Newcastle - Manchester Airport has been "lost" (as in, it's currently running, but will be split after electrification etc), then you may want to add Edinburgh and Glasgow to the list (my understanding was that the 350 operated service from Edinburgh/ Glasgow to Manchester would terminate at Piccadilly - am happy to be corrected though)

ashworth said:

Cleethorpes-Sheffield-Manchester-Bolton-Preston may actually see far more through passengers than there currently are to Manchester Airport. I'm always surprised when I travel from Nottingham to friends in Blackpool just how many people get off the Norwich-Liverpool EMT service at Manchester and remain on the platform to board the following Blackpool North train. Wasn't part of the reason for the Windsor Link in Manchester originally for this type of longer distance service so that passengers didn't have to cross Manchester from Piccadilly to Victoria.

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An interesting route, but would the forum members who read this thread agree with your choice of routing on the Manchester to Preston section?


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tbtc said:

I'll try not to bring extraneous and unconnected matters into the debate (like Scunthorpe United's Champions League itineracy), but if you consider that Newcastle - Manchester Airport has been "lost" (as in, it's currently running, but will be split after electrification etc

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Mea culpa.......My original thoughts were of the period when the Newcastle to Manchester Airport service had ceased to exist. I have now made the ending of that sentence in the posting in which it was made more reflective of my intentions.

Paul Sidorczuk said:

Forgive me, but when was Leeds (as stated in your quote) a calling point on the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport rail service ? Let us not bring extraneous and unconnected matters into the debate.

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It was you who brought up coach services never being cut back to not serve airports!

Certainly one of the sources where this had been mentioned was the East Coast franchise consultation. The aim in the remapping section seemed to be to establish whether services could be amended in such a way that the vast majority of services devolved in the Northern franchise were substantially within the PTE areas. As such I think the question really was, would Cleethorpes-Sheffield plus Doncaster-Manchester (MAN/MIA) be a suitable way to split the service up.

IanXC said:

Certainly one of the sources where this had been mentioned was the East Coast franchise consultation. The aim in the remapping section seemed to be to establish whether services could be amended in such a way that the vast majority of services devolved in the Northern franchise were substantially within the PTE areas.

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Thank you for this information. This indeed appears to be the consultation from which I had remembered the possibility of the service in the title of the thread being affected.

I have relatives that live in Cleethorpes and the situation of cutting the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport into two services seems ridiculous to me when locally to where I live they are build Crossrail to enable passengers to get from the West of London to the East of London without having to change on to the Underground. The fact of having to change trains at Doncaster or Sheffield to get to Manchester Airport seems to me to be going back to the last 50 years of the 20th Century!

jcollins said:

It was you who brought up coach services never being cut back to not serve airports!

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I have been to Manchester Airport this morning, in order to personally check matters for myself. National Express who have a sales office there and dedicated stances, have a wide number of British destinations served to and from there on a daily basis. I spoke to a senior supervisor who said that it was not their policy to miss out Manchester Airport on scheduled British services which are scheduled to call there.

I note that the service to which you had referred in your posting was a service from Leeds to a destination in Eire, which is somewhat different to those services referred to in the previous paragraph.

Paul Sidorczuk said:

An interesting route, but would the forum members who read this thread agree with your choice of routing on the Manchester to Preston section?

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Of course I'm happy with it. It would be the fast service linking Preston and Bolton/Bolton and Manchester, and link the passengers between Preston and Sheffield, of which I know there are a fair amount from personal experience. Would be good for TPE.

Robbies said:

I have relatives that live in Cleethorpes and the situation of cutting the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport into two services seems ridiculous to me when locally to where I live they are build Crossrail to enable passengers to get from the West of London to the East of London without having to change on to the Underground. The fact of having to change trains at Doncaster or Sheffield to get to Manchester Airport seems to me to be going back to the last 50 years of the 20th Century!

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But is this really any different from what was done in the East Midlands a few years ago?
The Nottingham to Crewe service was cut back to a Derby-Crewe service meaning that all passengers from Nottingham to destinations in the North West and Scotland via the WCML and North Wales now have to change additionally at Derby or Manchester.
The Lincoln-Birmingham service was cut back to a Lincoln-Leicester meaning that passengers from Lincoln and Newark now have to change at Nottingham or Leicester to reach Birmingham and now require 2 changes to reach destinations in the South West.
Then there is Nottingham to Glasgow which was withdrawn in the 1980's but that's another story.
Crossrail is in the London and the South East. Need I say any more!

Paul Sidorczuk said:

I have been to Manchester Airport this morning, in order to personally check matters for myself. National Express who have a sales office there and dedicated stances, have a wide number of British destinations served to and from there on a daily basis. I spoke to a senior supervisor who said that it was not their policy to miss out Manchester Airport on scheduled British services which are scheduled to call there.

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That might be the result of a BBC Watchdog report where some passengers travelling from Gatwick Airport reported having purchased tickets from the sales office on arrival in the country but the coaches missed out the Airport leaving them at the Airport due to the driver not being told that people had purchased tickets to board that service at the Airport in time.

As far as I'm aware any National Express coach which has all seats sold will miss out stops that have no-one pre-booked to board or alight. If there are available seats it might relate to how they are doing for time.

I'm also aware that the National Express services that go via Manchester Airport usually have less cheap seats available for non-Airport journeys than the ones that aren't scheduled to go via Manchester Airport, so that might be to reduce the chance of a service via the Airport being sold out.

jcollins said:

That might be the result of a BBC Watchdog report where some passengers travelling from Gatwick Airport reported having purchased tickets from the sales office on arrival in the country but the coaches missed out the Airport leaving them at the Airport due to the driver not being told that people had purchased tickets to board that service at the Airport in time.

As far as I'm aware any National Express coach which has all seats sold will miss out stops that have no-one pre-booked to board or alight. If there are available seats it might relate to how they are doing for time.

I'm also aware that the National Express services that go via Manchester Airport usually have less cheap seats available for non-Airport journeys than the ones that aren't scheduled to go via Manchester Airport, so that might be to reduce the chance of a service via the Airport being sold out.

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Off-topic alert, but I can confirm that this sometimes happens at Meadowhall Interchange too. Coaches with no booked drop-offs/pick-ups will just drive past on the main road. Personally I think it's completely wrong but I'm not in a position to change things sadly!

Robbies said:

I have relatives that live in Cleethorpes and the situation of cutting the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport into two services seems ridiculous to me when locally to where I live they are build Crossrail to enable passengers to get from the West of London to the East of London without having to change on to the Underground. The fact of having to change trains at Doncaster or Sheffield to get to Manchester Airport seems to me to be going back to the last 50 years of the 20th Century!

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It's all about demand patterns.

Plenty of places closer to Manchester Airport cope without a direct train to the Airport (Stoke, Rochdale, Blackburn etc). Are there significant numbers of people travelling from Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport to justify an hourly service? Or just a handful of people using it for an annual holiday?

When the Ordsall Chord is completed, the Cleethorpes service is going to be the only Manchester Piccadilly - Airport service that reverses at Piccadilly (which will be a conflicting movement).

Maybe there are enough people using the through service to justify keeping it, maybe it's just two places that are linked for operational convenience (in the way that there probably aren't thousands of people travelling from Bury to Altricham each day, but they have a direct tram every few minutes).

Am sure others on this thread will justify Manchester Airport being linked to everywhere else, of course.

tbtc said:

It's all about demand patterns.

Plenty of places closer to Manchester Airport cope without a direct train to the Airport (Stoke, Rochdale, Blackburn etc). Are there significant numbers of people travelling from Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport to justify an hourly service? Or just a handful of people using it for an annual holiday?

When the Ordsall Chord is completed, the Cleethorpes service is going to be the only Manchester Piccadilly - Airport service that reverses at Piccadilly (which will be a conflicting movement).

Maybe there are enough people using the through service to justify keeping it, maybe it's just two places that are linked for operational convenience (in the way that there probably aren't thousands of people travelling from Bury to Altricham each day, but they have a direct tram every few minutes).

Am sure others on this thread will justify Manchester Airport being linked to everywhere else, of course.

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I must confess I had forgotten about the fact of the reversing of the train in Piccadilly, so I guess the only other choice would be if it went via Preston and Bolton as mentioned earlier in this thread?

I also had not realised about the services that Ashworth mentions either, which again is a great shame that they have been cut back.

So I guess there is enough of a demand for Crossrail or should I say enough people demanding a through service from Maidenhead/Heathrow Airport to Shenfield/Abbey Wood so that they do not have to change so often.

Shame really, as I think in time that people will regret cutting back the services such as the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport, although if a cutback needs to be made then I would change the service to be Cleethorpes - Manchester Piccadilly, that way people like the elderly or disabled can change trains to get to the Airport service more easily.

Robbies said:

I must confess I had forgotten about the fact of the reversing of the train in Piccadilly, so I guess the only other choice would be if it went via Preston and Bolton as mentioned earlier in this thread?

I also had not realised about the services that Ashworth mentions either, which again is a great shame that they have been cut back.

So I guess there is enough of a demand for Crossrail or should I say enough people demanding a through service from Maidenhead/Heathrow Airport to Shenfield/Abbey Wood so that they do not have to change so often.

Shame really, as I think in time that people will regret cutting back the services such as the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport, although if a cutback needs to be made then I would change the service to be Cleethorpes - Manchester Piccadilly, that way people like the elderly or disabled can change trains to get to the Airport service more easily.

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I'm not sure about demand for "a through service from Maidenhead/Heathrow Airport to Shenfield/Abbey Wood", more that there's demand to get from West London to Tottenham Court Road, Docklands and Stratford and demand to get from East London to Tottenham Court Road and Heathrow.

Enthusiasts (and this isn't intended as a personal dig) often claim some kind of demand between two places just because they are linked by a direct service (e.g. I doubt many travel all the way from Liverpool to Scarborough).

The Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport service is complicated by the reversal at Piccadilly but also by the desire to reduce the number of services crossing the flat ECML at Doncaster, future electrification plans, the fact that this will be the only TPE corridor without EMUs...

I totally agree that the Cleethorpes-Manchester Airport service should at least run to Manchester Piccadily, if not through to Manchester Airport. If you were to terminate it at Piccadily, then a connection to Airport should be made simple. I find that it would be useful for the service to continue running to Sheffield especially with lots of connections on offer (Huudersfield, Derby, Birmingham, South West, Leicster) that can be rather useful for those living in Cleethorpes/Grimsby/Scunthorpe (I should know, I live at the start of the route!)
I don't know really if you could justify a Cleethorpes-Preston service, but I do believe that if the TPX, Northern, EMT, CrossCountry, East Coast, West Coast remap occurs, I think the Cleethorpes-Manchester service should be put into the EMT franchise, operating like the Norwich-Liverpool service as a cross-distance (four car) service evry hour, although some services could continue to Preston/Liverpool.
In my opinion though, if it were possible to keep the CLE-MIA through, so be it. Useful for the likes of the elderly and people with young children.

Thanks, Sam