Delay Repay Fraud

Bijgc · 26 Jan 2013

Hello all,

It seems the Delay Repay system is open to abuse from Season ticket holders (i.e., claims made for relevant delayed journeys that haven't actually been made). Is there any way for TOCs to verify that the claimant actually made he journey and is anyone aware of an cases where prosecutions for fraud have been mounted? I wonder how abused this system is and whether TOCs are clamping down on this?

To ward off accusations of this on my own part, I live in a very well connected part of London and, barring the recent snow disruption, it is nigh on impossible to be over 30 mins late! I am, though, aware of commuters that live further out where half-hourly services predominate. Here, cancellation of one service may produce claims from those who may not have been inconvenienced by the cancellation.

Thanks!

RailUK Forums

Qwerty133 · 26 Jan 2013

Yes someone at sometime proberly has applied for delay repay when they haven't been traveling. however the price of most season tickets mean you would ge approx £2 per claim so it isn't really worth the effort of looking through real time sites to look for delays.

district · 26 Jan 2013

With my season ticket I get around £3.50 or so for a 30 minute delay. It certainly wouldn't be worth any time or effort finding information on delays if I wasn't actually affected myself.

That said, I do know of people who are on trains I commute to college on who have in the past taken advantage of the system. Unfortunately, I don't have any evidence that isn't hearsay to prove this.

Neil W · 27 Jan 2013

When I was a commuter from Peterborough to King's Cross I noticed that on days with significant disruption there was often discussion about claiming for being on another train to that which was being travelled on to maximise the claim.
With an annual season ticket costing up to £7472 this year it makes a one hour delay worth £12 (if I recall correctly), and as East Coast accept online submission of claims can even be done on their free WiFi.
Never managed to be organised enough to claim for all the actual delays I suffered, let alone any extra ones, but I would not be surprised to find out that many people did this.

yorkie · 27 Jan 2013

Bijgc said:
.. is anyone aware of an cases where prosecutions for fraud have been mounted? I

Is the Pope a Catholic?

Here's one high-profile example:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/dec/19/ukcrime.world

Civil servant jailed for tube ticket scam

A senior civil servant was jailed for 18 months today after using London Underground's "Monty Pythonesque" fare refund scheme to feed his spiralling gambling addiction.

I'm sure that was posted on this forum at the time. And that won't be the only one!

Prairie_5542 · 27 Jan 2013

I do know of some people who look online to see which trains were delayed/ ask at the ticket office which trains were late and submit a claim that they were on that late train, when in fact they wasn't!!

DelayRepay · 27 Jan 2013

I know of people who text each other to let them know a particular train was delayed, so that they can all claim delay repay.

On my season ticket a 30 minute delay nets me about £2 so it's not really worth claiming for genuine delays, let alone made up ones! But on a longer commute people could get back more money.

I can't see how the railway can stop this though - other than having station staff hand out valudated claim forms to everyone alighting a delayed train. The costs of doing this would probably massively outweigh any savings made from reducing fraudulant claims. Indeed such a shceme would probably see overall claims rise, as people who didn't know about delay repay or didn't realse they could claim would do so on receipt of the form.

Smartcard ticketing will put a stop to the frauds I suppose.

dcsprior · 27 Jan 2013

Out of interest, if you have an Advance ticket which restricts you to only using one train, do you have to have been on the train in order to claim Delay Repay?

I'm guessing the answer is no, but I'm in two minds about whether you morally "should" be able to:
* On the one hand, it seems wrong to be allowed to claim Delay Repay for a journey you didn't actually make
* On the other hand, it seems ludicrous that it could cost less if you did make the journey (as you could then get a 50% or 100% refund) than if you didn't (as you would have a non-refundable ticket).

maniacmartin · 27 Jan 2013

EC Delay Repay paper claim form contains this snippet:

East Coast said:
Please enclose your validated ticket and your seat
reservation coupon. Validated tickets for your journey
must be enclosed with your Claim Form please do not
staple them together. Normally a member of staff will
stamp and validate your ticket/seat reservation voucher
on board

This isn't mentioned on their online claim form, and I'm not sure if its really enforced or if other TOCs do similar. I presume a validated ticket is one that the TM/Guard has stamped.

yorkie · 27 Jan 2013

Prairie_5542 said:
I do know of some people who look online to see which trains were delayed/ ask at the ticket office which trains were late and submit a claim that they were on that late train, when in fact they wasn't!!

It's the journey rather than the train that matters, so they will get caught out one day as an unadvertised additional will run, or something like that!

For example, I was on a train the other day that made an additional stop. It was advertised on the train but did not appear on live departure boards.

maniacmartin said:
EC Delay Repay paper claim form contains this snippet:

This isn't mentioned on their online claim form, and I'm not sure if its really enforced or if other TOCs do similar. I presume a validated ticket is one that the TM/Guard has stamped.

Which is a nonsense in the case of some delays - do they want a HST load of people up and out of their seats queuing to get their ticket "validated"? I am sure the Guard would have more important things to do than stamp hundreds of tickets, in the event of a major delay.

OK, their "validation" request will work where a ticket inspection has already taken place and a delay occurs toward the end of the journey, but they can't insist on it in all cases.

BrownE · 28 Jan 2013

maniacmartin said:
This isn't mentioned on their online claim form, and I'm not sure if its really enforced or if other TOCs do similar. I presume a validated ticket is one that the TM/Guard has stamped.

Interesting... A few weeks ago, I bought a London Terminals - Reading ticket from a Southeastern TVM at St. Pancras. Being a silly billy, I forgot that it didn't include the tube! Anyway, popped up to the East Midlands Ticket Office and asked for a new ticket - they endorsed the current one with a stamp.

On the FGW train back, the TM was evidently in a hurry and grabbed the ticket off me and stamped it when I was still getting the correct one.

I then submitted a front/back picture of the endorsed ticket (that was clearly stamped with the train headcode [Zifa stampers]) without any explanation of why and it was refunded.

I think that shows one of:
i. Either Southeastern didn't check the TMs stamp that marked the ticket as used
ii. Southeastern didn't care
iii. Southeastern trust me.

Deerfold · 28 Jan 2013

maniacmartin said:
EC Delay Repay paper claim form contains this snippet:

This isn't mentioned on their online claim form, and I'm not sure if its really enforced or if other TOCs do similar. I presume a validated ticket is one that the TM/Guard has stamped.

I hope they don't start doing that to my season ticket (I do have an EC season)!

Panda · 28 Jan 2013

I bought a season ticket from SWT on 03/01/2013 and got £3.50 refunded for a service disruption on 13/12/2011 (yes, more than a year earlier).

AlterEgo · 28 Jan 2013

mulderpf said:
I bought a season ticket from SWT on 03/01/2013 and got £3.50 refunded for a service disruption on 13/12/2011 (yes, more than a year earlier).

How did that happen? Did you claim for it?

AlexS · 28 Jan 2013

If it gets excessive with particular individuals, there are ways and means of having a look into things - it's sometimes possible to use CCTV to see if they boarded and alighted at stations they say they did on particular trains, and so on.

AlterEgo · 28 Jan 2013

AlexS said:
If it gets excessive with particular individuals, there are ways and means of having a look into things - it's sometimes possible to use CCTV to see if they boarded and alighted at stations they say they did on particular trains, and so on.

There really isn't a way you can use CCTV and pore over it for hours and hours to find someone at a busy station and see if they boarded a certain train. All you'd have to go off would be a poor quality scan of a Photocard anyway.

Panda · 28 Jan 2013

AlterEgo said:
How did that happen? Did you claim for it?

No, not at all. I bought a travel card from SWT in November 2011 and Jan 2013 was the first time I bought one from them again (London travelcard). They just automatically discounted my new travelcard by £3.50.

And considering that I took a tube on the day of the disruption, I wasn't really delayed. Personally, I would rather SWT keep the money and use it for something else (bonuses for guards maybe

).

Two things which immediately come to mind, is that if I used TFL to buy the exact same travelcard, I would not have got the discount and the fact that I just jumped on the tube means that I wasn't really delayed at all.

As I'm living in London, there's always an alternative - I would never bother to actually claim while living "inside the zones".

island · 28 Jan 2013

AlterEgo said:
How did that happen? Did you claim for it?

A void day or charter discount, I expect.

AlexS · 28 Jan 2013

AlterEgo said:
There really isn't a way you can use CCTV and pore over it for hours and hours to find someone at a busy station and see if they boarded a certain train. All you'd have to go off would be a poor quality scan of a Photocard anyway.

Actually, there really is chap. I'm not talking about the average chancer filing one or two dodgy claims ever, I'm referring to hardcore delay repay and refund due to non-travel request fraudsters. You'll find some TOCs have a file the size of a bible on some people and going through CCTV for a specified train is a small price to pay to drag them into court. If they've even gone so far as to tell you what train they claimed to have boarded it's surprisingly easy, particularly if an RPI on the ground already knows of them, which they usually do for the proper jobs.

AlterEgo · 29 Jan 2013

AlexS said:
Actually, there really is chap. I'm not talking about the average chancer filing one or two dodgy claims ever, I'm referring to hardcore delay repay and refund due to non-travel request fraudsters. You'll find some TOCs have a file the size of a bible on some people and going through CCTV for a specified train is a small price to pay to drag them into court.

No TOC to my knowledge has ever prosecuted anyone for Delay Repay fraud. Not even the over-zealous ones like Northern!

The whole point is that you get claims for random journeys that happen to be delayed - there's no regular travel pattern, so you don't know where and when Mr A Smith (with blurry photocard) is actually travelling, so you've no idea which times you should check CCTV for.

The fact is, it simply is not practical or cost-effective to pursue it. Trust me, I'm in a position to know!

SETCommuter · 13 Feb 2013

Maybe if TOC's didn't decline delay repays and state that a train was "only" 29 minutes late & it needs to be 30 minutes late to claim, people wouldn't feel the need to do this.

IMO (as a commuter) having to be delayed for 30 minutes before being eligible for a claim is far too high a threshold. 15 minutes would be more reasonable - especially given the paltry amount offered by the TOCs

sarahj · 13 Feb 2013

It might start a bit of war here, but why, just because you are a commuter you should get more of a refund. If you have a yearly ticket, you are alreadt getting a large discount on your ticket. EG, a anytime 6 zone travelcard from the south coast to london is 56.00. Even travelling more than 100 times a year you are starting to get a discount. 225 days (45 weeks) would come to 12600. (Even if your travelling just 3 times a week, a 7 day season is cheaper). Yes, the money up front is a lot, but its giving you a large discount, and the option of getting a refund if things change. Also if you have a gold card, other discounts. Add on money back for delays.... What your getting is the same rules for delays that people who have paid more for the same train and same journey are getting.

mrmatt · 13 Feb 2013

I know they are not in use everywhere but can TOCs scrape ticket barriers for information on who passed through them?

Also during the recent snow I was stuck at Charing X for over 2.5 hours and then had to get a bus for an hour for the last half of my journey and southeastern gave me a nice chunk back and £20 in M&S vouchers. Seriously impressed.

johnb · 14 Feb 2013

MrMatt: for Oyster, yes absolutely they can.

For magstripe tickets, the barrier isn't clever. It opens if its coding shows that the ticket is valid, and shows an error otherwise; that's your lot. For magstripe tickets, LU gates also record data on number of entries, ticket types and ticket destinations for statistical purposes. I imagine most NR ones do the same.

AlterEgo · 14 Feb 2013

sarahj said:
It might start a bit of war here, but why, just because you are a commuter you should get more of a refund. If you have a yearly ticket, you are alreadt getting a large discount on your ticket. EG, a anytime 6 zone travelcard from the south coast to london is 56.00. Even travelling more than 100 times a year you are starting to get a discount. 225 days (45 weeks) would come to 12600. (Even if your travelling just 3 times a week, a 7 day season is cheaper). Yes, the money up front is a lot, but its giving you a large discount, and the option of getting a refund if things change. Also if you have a gold card, other discounts. Add on money back for delays.... What your getting is the same rules for delays that people who have paid more for the same train and same journey are getting.

Season ticket holders are among the highest-value customers the railway has. While their custom may sometimes seem to be taken for granted, it makes perfect sense to compensate them at the same percentages as other travellers. It's fair and equitable.

If their ticket is discounted then the amount of compensation awarded to them per delay is equally discounted...

By your logic, Advance ticket holders should not be awarded compensation. These are people who are price sensitive and need encouraging most to use the train.

SETCommuter · 14 Feb 2013

The issue is that a delay can often cause more delays for the passenger. eg for me, anything more than a 10 minute delay on my way to work makes me miss my connecting bus and I then have to wait an extra 30 minutes for the next bus. But the TOCs won't take any responsibility for this. Commuters pay a lot of money - yes we get the discounts - but the point is that a 30 minute threshold is far too high before "compensation" is considered.

I would imagine that anybody only offering to purchase a ticket after 30 minutes of travel wouldn't be afforded the same flexibility !

DelayRepay · 14 Feb 2013

sarahj said:
It might start a bit of war here, but why, just because you are a commuter you should get more of a refund. If you have a yearly ticket, you are alreadt getting a large discount on your ticket. EG, a anytime 6 zone travelcard from the south coast to london is 56.00. Even travelling more than 100 times a year you are starting to get a discount. 225 days (45 weeks) would come to 12600. (Even if your travelling just 3 times a week, a 7 day season is cheaper). Yes, the money up front is a lot, but its giving you a large discount, and the option of getting a refund if things change. Also if you have a gold card, other discounts. Add on money back for delays.... What your getting is the same rules for delays that people who have paid more for the same train and same journey are getting.

I thought season ticket holders got less of a refund as it's based on price paid for the ticket, so reflects the fact season ticket holders get a discount.

Does anyone know the calculation?

Also remember, if we're talking about "fairness" that day ticket holders can return their ticket for a full refund if their train is cancelled and they decide not to travel. If I decide not to travel (or to drive, for example) due to disruption, I don't get a refund even though I've paid for a day's travel that hasn't been used.

AlterEgo · 14 Feb 2013

DelayRepay said:
If I decide not to travel (or to drive, for example) due to disruption, I don't get a refund even though I've paid for a day's travel that hasn't been used.

Depending on the TOC you may be entitled to Void Days, for example, when you renew.

Also, remember that your ticket is vastly discounted compared to people purchasing Anytimes and allows unlimited flexibility. Seasons are often expensive but good value. They compare favourably with other modes
of transport - you'd be due nothing with a bus ticket, or if you were delayed when driving.

SF-02 · 15 Feb 2013

maniacmartin said:
EC Delay Repay paper claim form contains this snippet:

This isn't mentioned on their online claim form, and I'm not sure if its really enforced or if other TOCs do similar. I presume a validated ticket is one that the TM/Guard has stamped.

Hmm. Hope that isn't enforced as I've just submitted a delay repay online as an east coast train I was on from Newcastle to London was terminated at York and had to change. Ended up 80 mins late but ticket wasn't validated or stamped as it was standing room only and the guard couldn't get through.

34D · 15 Feb 2013

SETCommuter said:
the point is that a 30 minute threshold is far too high before "compensation" is considered.

Agree totally. Its an hour on Northern Rail

Delay Repay Fraud

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