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Trapped in train doors

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tsr

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The doors wouldn't have opened unless you'd pressed the button, however, it's entirely possible there was a fault with the button/door.

Wrong button pushed?

If you are panicking/stressed, it is quite easy to push the wrong button by the door. I could go into the science as to why that behaviour is evident in people who are normally able to tell the buttons apart (there is actually some), but I won't. In fact, it's definitely not always down to panic anyway.

There is no warning tone (that I am aware of) that says you are attempting to push the button to re-close the doors whilst an object is blocking them.
 
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thelem

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Expecting someone to check that 24 doors are clear right now on a busy platform seems like rather a tall order, so I wonder if it would be possible to change the technology to make it easier, or to change the process so the driver isn't asked to do so much at once.
Employ guards?

How does that help? You've still got one person trying to check 24 doors. OK, it's easier for them to step off the train to check the doors, but that doesn't stop someone stepping onto the platform and trying to get onto the train after the door close button has been pressed, nor will they be able to see a passenger (with or without push chair) who is fully on the train.

The solution is doors that detect that they are closing on people, and re-open (preferably just that door, rather than the whole train). Modern stock (e.g. FCC's 377s) tend to have doors like this.
 

D365

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Wrong button pushed?

If you are panicking/stressed, it is quite easy to push the wrong button by the door. I could go into the complex science as to why that behaviour is evident in people who are normally able to tell the buttons apart (there is actually some), but I won't. In fact, it's definitely not always down to panic anyway.

There is no warning tone (that I am aware of) that says you are attempting to push the button to re-close the doors whilst an object is blocking them.

There is only one type of passenger-operated button on the 365 exterior (identified as travelling via Ely) which opens the doors when released. A door close button is only available internally as it is intended for passengers to shut during longer stops. No warning or protection given though so passengers are trusted to be careful. I don't think either button will work when the doors are on 'lock down' with the warning tone.


The solution is doors that detect that they are closing on people, and re-open (preferably just that door, rather than the whole train). Modern stock (e.g. FCC's 377s) tend to have doors like this.

Isn't it a requirement on all new builds? Not sure about that, or refurbs.


RAIB report for a similar 2011 incident
 
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mralexn

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Why did the doors not reopen..?

It's usually assumed the jam is temporary and the person will move out the way, and if not the doors are usually reopened then closed again.

Why was the driver not aware..?

It can't leave. There is a safety system called "interlock" which prevents the train from moving while the doors are open. The stories you read are probably exaggerated. Usually it's something small like clothing or a bag strap which is too small to detect.

How could driver close doors..?

In all honesty, the driver may be in a hurry to keep the timetable. Unfortunately staff are pressed by their employers to do so. Is it right? Depends on your viewpoint. There is truth in what Mojo says, as otherwise the train would never leave.

Who do I complain to?

First Capital Connect via their website. Express your views, but be skillful and polite when you do.

What can I expect..?

If you are concerned about safety then you shouldn't expect something really.

Also, depending on the stations layout, the visibility may be less than ideal. You mention a large gap. Some platforms such as Elephant and Castle P4 have this issue due to the curvature of the platform. I don't know if this is the station in question but worth noting.


After working for FCC Customer Relations I can tell you that you will probably get some standard text pre written letter saying we are sorry bla bla bla, we take safety seriously (insert long winded paragraphs about what FCC are doing to improve there safety and why they do not have Guards" and depending on the person dealing with your case, you may get a few pounds worth of Rail Travel Vouchers. It would be worth sending them an email, also if you can, try to remember what time train (from / to) that you were on and if possible attach a scanned image of your ticket. I hope this helps a bit, but really, don't expect much, It is now pretty much all moved out to India now.
 

sirhc

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Following two serious incidents involving the 365 rolling stock as far back as 2006 involving WAGN and another since involving FCC the RAIB advised new technology to allow these old type doors to reopen when something was trapped. FCC are on record as saying it would be too costly and they have been allowed to defer this from this year over the next two years. Is that profit before passenger safety, which I would have thought it is the paramount rule "To carry passengers safely" before sticking to timetables, etc. East Coast have a line of sight employee on the platform at every stop with a series of whisles and baton, they also run some of the old rolling stock where each door has to be physically checked before departure, and they have an excellent caring attitudse as did GNER before them; and teir trains run on time!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As far as the incident which occurred to my Wife Jan 2012 when she was trapped in the train doors trying to exit and only freed when another passenger prised them open. This was reported immediately to the FCC platform staff who gave her bull**** regarding the driver's CCTV and made her think that it was her fault. They then failed to report it to Head Office. A subsequent e-mail from me was ignored and FCC only responded when the local newspaper was involved and then tried to fob us off with free complimentary tickets. A solicitor was employed and the RAIB informed and FCC have since admitted liability. A sympathetic and caring Company attitude from the onset to the public involved would go a long way towards customer relations.
 

blacknight

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It's also not a danger to be trapped in the doors-the train can't move anywhere until interlock is gained.

There is a danger in being trapped in doors that it maybe an item of clothing where person is trapped in doors & interlock is obtained & train departs with person still trapped, see RAIB reports into Huntingdon, Kings Cross & others.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Employ guards?

That would be expensive;) also DOO seems to be McNulty report favoured option of cost reductions so don't expect Government to legislate any day soon. Before anyone posts well what about guard at James Street look at RAIB report see how many close calls involving DOO have happened.
 
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millemille

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365 doors obstacle detect only in the last 150mm or so of travel of each leaf. If you trap something like a wide buggy in the door it won't obstacle detect.

If you hold a set of 365 (and 465/0/1) doors against the closing pressure for a long period of time (50 seconds reported by the OP being a long period of time) without them obs detecting the door control module will lock up and not respond to local or train controls. The door has to be locally isolated and reinstated to clear the lock up.
 

A-driver

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There is a danger in being trapped in doors that it maybe an item of clothing where person is trapped in doors & interlock is obtained & train departs with person still trapped, see RAIB reports into Huntingdon, Kings Cross & others.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But that isn't what happened here! You won't get interlock and be able to move with a person or buggy stuck in the doors.

As for the comments about doors that open again if passengers are detected, 377s only have that when the doors are shutting automatically to keep the air con in. When the driver presses door close they won't re open if people are detected. They don't close with as much force as a 365 as they are electric, not air operated, and if you force them too long they do spring back open but that's only after a period of time.

If you designed train doors to re open if an obstruction is detected then trains would never leave, every time a late runner gets on whilst the hustle alarm is sounding would prevent the doors closing. Try that at some rush hour stations and see what happens!
 

blacknight

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But that isn't what happened here! You won't get interlock and be able to move with a person or buggy stuck in the doors.

Think the 2 incidents I quoted are proof you can get interlock with a person trapped in doors, my concern is that a culture of I have interlock therefore no one can be trapped in doors could be created.
 
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A-driver

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Think the 2 incidents I quoted are proof you can get interlock with a person trapped in doors, my concern is that a culture of I have interlock therefore no one can be trapped in doors could be created.

No they arnt. Here in the ops post a person was stuck in the doors with a buggy. You won't ever get interlock with that. A small piece of clothing or finger is very different as that allows the doors to close.

Completely different scenarios. And there was a lot more to both those from the RAIB reports. Neither were a black and white case of driver/dispatcher error.
 

millemille

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No they arnt. Here in the ops post a person was stuck in the doors with a buggy. You won't ever get interlock with that. A small piece of clothing or finger is very different as that allows the doors to close.

Completely different scenarios. And there was a lot more to both those from the RAIB reports. Neither were a black and white case of driver/dispatcher error.

Very much this.

In both cases the passengers involved interfered with the doors once they were closing. I saw the CCTV footage of the Huntingdon incident a few hours after it happened and the bloke was dicking about jumping on and off the train and holding the doors as they were closing.
 

gazzak

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My colleague saw an incident on one of the new Metropolitan Line trains a couple of years back after the train had pulled in to the last stop at Uxbridge. The driver opened the wrong set of doors, (platforms are on both sides of the train), quickly realised his mistake and closed them again. Unfortunately one passenger was half out and somehow the doors closed on his neck. The doors had closed enough that the mechanical lock was made so the doors couldn't be opened, and as others realised they all pulled on the doors do try to help the guy breath.

The driver had opened the correct doors in the meantime, but hadn't realised he'd trapped someone by closing the other set of doors, and didn't check because it took several minutes to get help and the doors opened again. I know if this happened on route that the train wouldn't have departed because the electrical interlock wasn't made, but when my colleague told me what happened I was surprised that an adults neck could be between the doors and a mechanical interlock made.
 

A-driver

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I don't like playing the 'I have experienced this and so I know what I'm talking about' card but these kind if situations are almost impossible to explain on a forum, or even face to face. Dispatching a train really isn't as black and white as it appears and, as I made clear in the threads on those 2 incidents last year, I can see exactly what happened and exactly why those drivers and dispatchers did what they did-it's not ideal and they were caught out but I don't like the way those RAIB reports come across-having dispatched DOO trains thousands if times I can see exactly what happened and why.

Not trying to say only drivers can comment on this thread at all before I am accused of that, I'm just saying that reading the report without the relevant experience will only give half the picture.
 

A-driver

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My colleague saw an incident on one of the new Metropolitan Line trains a couple of years back after the train had pulled in to the last stop at Uxbridge. The driver opened the wrong set of doors, (platforms are on both sides of the train), quickly realised his mistake and closed them again. Unfortunately one passenger was half out and somehow the doors closed on his neck. The doors had closed enough that the mechanical lock was made so the doors couldn't be opened, and as others realised they all pulled on the doors do try to help the guy breath.

The driver had opened the correct doors in the meantime, but hadn't realised he'd trapped someone by closing the other set of doors, and didn't check because it took several minutes to get help and the doors opened again. I know if this happened on route that the train wouldn't have departed because the electrical interlock wasn't made, but when my colleague told me what happened I was surprised that an adults neck could be between the doors and a mechanical interlock made.

The driver wouldn't be able to see if he opened the doors wrong side-he would have no view of that side of the train in CCTV/mirrors etc. and wouldn't be looking fur interlock as the other side had been opened (but he admittedly should have checked afterwards that no one had tried to exit the train-he may have done after reporting himself to the line controller).

As an aside point-how does one get their neck trapped in the doors?! Must have a funny posture when walking!
 

blacknight

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I don't like playing the 'I have experienced this and so I know what I'm talking about' card but these kind if situations are almost impossible to explain on a forum, or even face to face. Dispatching a train really isn't as black and white as it appears and, as I made clear in the threads on those 2 incidents last year, I can see exactly what happened and exactly why those drivers and dispatchers did what they did-it's not ideal and they were caught out but I don't like the way those RAIB reports come across-having dispatched DOO trains thousands if times I can see exactly what happened and why.

Not trying to say only drivers can comment on this thread at all before I am accused of that, I'm just saying that reading the report without the relevant experience will only give half the picture.

What is wrong with RAIB reports giving primary cause ie train departed with passenger in unsafe position then a secondary ie passenger actions & intervention.
 

A-driver

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What is wrong with RAIB reports giving primary cause ie train departed with passenger in unsafe position then a secondary ie passenger actions & intervention.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. It's more the fact that, as I said, I can picture exactly what happened and why but that is something the RAIB can't really get through to the reader as without having experienced hundreds or thousands of dispatches you can't understand fully.

I'm not going to start debating those 2 examples as they have had their own threads but lets face it, if the man concerned didn't realise his coat was trapped in the doors until too late then how can a driver looking on a grainy, low quality CCTV screen outside with sunlight shining on the screen notice a detail as 'minor' as that. (I mean minor as in very difficult to spot on a screen designed to show if anyone is currently walking on or off the train, not minor as in not dangerous).

As I say, this isn't the place for that debate but there is a lot more to those incidents than one can gather from reading the report alone.
 

Panda

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I said above I have years of experience with the tube, and I know d*mn well when someone is deliberately closing the doors early, braking heavily to unbalance passengers and being a danger.

Haha - this is the funniest thing I have ever heard. If it was so incredibly dangerous, did anyone die or go to hospital? Or are we not talking hospital-dangerous then? I also have years and years of experience of riding on trains, tubes and buses - by no means does it make me an expert on operating a train or bus.

I very much doubt that the driver just felt like having a laugh and tried to make people fall over by driving erratically.
 

bronzeonion

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There is a danger in being trapped in doors that it maybe an item of clothing where person is trapped in doors & interlock is obtained & train departs with person still trapped, see RAIB reports into Huntingdon, Kings Cross & others.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That would be expensive;) also DOO seems to be McNulty report favoured option of cost reductions so don't expect Government to legislate any day soon. Before anyone posts well what about guard at James Street look at RAIB report see how many close calls involving DOO have happened.

Sadly it will take a a pretty tragic accident for DOO to be looked at as all the close calls have been ignored.

The McNulty report is a joke!
 

Bakerbloke

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Maybe DOO should only be permitted on more modern trains where the doors have door sensors.

This is one of a number of reasons where guards are invaluable. On Northern trains I see guards frequently help parents with small children get off the train. For me, if I know I am going to miss a connection I can begin to solve the issue with the help of the guard who is much more knowledgeable of alternative routes/options than myself.

Am I correct in thinking that for a route to be a DOO, every station has to have strict visibility testing (e.g. Is platform lighting sufficient), be straight platforms and with no obstructions? The mirror/cameras are just one of many requirements.
 

gazzak

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If it was so incredibly dangerous, did anyone die or go to hospital? Or are we not talking hospital-dangerous then?

Is closing the doors when people are exiting the train safe?
Does somebody need to go to hospital to prove something unsafe was being practised?

That's what was happening. I tried to explain it as best as possible in my original post, and obviously the majority on here think I must have been drunk or something, but words can't really do justice to the experience. I'm sure most on here know the difference between braking carefully with a full load of passengers and going through a red light trip on the tube, which is incredibly harsh braking.

So, I ask again, is it safe to close the doors when passengers are exiting the train?
 

bronzeonion

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Trains are 'operated' in ATO on the Central line the majority of the time and nearly all the time in the tunnels so harsh braking is the norm, and he/she was probably closing the doors 'early' because he/she was running late. There is no point in delaying trains behind you and plus if running late the train behind would only really be a minute behind anyway. Just a shame there is no real way for passengers to be told this and for them to understand, most have earphones in anyway.
 

gazzak

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Trains are 'operated' in ATO on the Central line the majority of the time and nearly all the time in the tunnels so harsh braking is the norm, and he/she was probably closing the doors 'early' because he/she was running late. There is no point in delaying trains behind you and plus if running late the train behind would only really be a minute behind anyway. Just a shame there is no real way for passengers to be told this and for them to understand, most have earphones in anyway.

OK, I give up. It never happened.
 

Wolfie

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Personally, I think a case of get over it is in order. The driver didn't mean it, mistakes happen, don't go calling for blood. You've registered a complaint with FCC, why the intent to take it to someone else? What do you think the rail industry is?

Just what I think, haven't got to like it.

Oh and expect to have a few blunt posts when you ask questions how you did in your first post, mostly misguided assumptions.

Nevertheless, I'm glad you're okay! Nasty situation indeed, but we're all humans.

The first paragraph is EXACTLY the wrong attitude for any safety conscious industry. I suggest you look at the aviation industry for example where confidential no-fault reporting systems are proven to reduce safety-related incidents.

Just because luckily no one got hurt this time doesn't mean that they won't next time......
 

A-driver

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The first paragraph is EXACTLY the wrong attitude for any safety conscious industry. I suggest you look at the aviation industry for example where confidential no-fault reporting systems are proven to reduce safety-related incidents.

Just because luckily no one got hurt this time doesn't mean that they won't next time......

You see you are making out to be far more serious than it was. Mistakes happen and there are safeguards to ensure that no harm can come to people as a result. No one could have got hurt here.
 

Linziburns

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The doors wouldn't have opened unless you'd pressed the button, however, it's entirely possible there was a fault with the button/door.

Hello, please could you clarify your comment, I'm not exactly certain what you mean. My companion pressed the 'open door' button shortly before we arrived at the station, however after we became stuck and I pressed the button again, the doors didn't reopen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
- last night for instance I watched somebody literally run down the stairs onto the platform and run straight at the now closed doors, bouncing off them.

I would pay good money to see that! I bet you laughed so hard! It sounds like one of those CCTV clips that you see on 'World's Most Stupid...' shows - gave me a giggle anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wrong button pushed?

If you are panicking/stressed, it is quite easy to push the wrong button by the door. I could go into the science as to why that behaviour is evident in people who are normally able to tell the buttons apart (there is actually some), but I won't. In fact, it's definitely not always down to panic anyway.

I was absolutely panicked, however I don't remember seeing multiple buttons, just the one to open the doors - this is the one my friend pressed prior to arriving at the station.
 

sirhc

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The first paragraph is EXACTLY the wrong attitude for any safety conscious industry. I suggest you look at the aviation industry for example where confidential no-fault reporting systems are proven to reduce safety-related incidents.

Just because luckily no one got hurt this time doesn't mean that they won't next time......

Wolfie, the very point is that the Rail Company have Not taken the report and dealt with it from the outset; as in our case. They were only prompted into action Firstly by the Press and Secondly when trying to fob it off by Legal Action. Their paramount responsibility is Passenger Safety before profit, running on time, etc. If not hand the franchaise to a responsible agency like East Coast for example. sirhc.
 
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I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. It's more the fact that, as I said, I can picture exactly what happened and why but that is something the RAIB can't really get through to the reader as without having experienced hundreds or thousands of dispatches you can't understand fully.

I'm not going to start debating those 2 examples as they have had their own threads but lets face it, if the man concerned didn't realise his coat was trapped in the doors until too late then how can a driver looking on a grainy, low quality CCTV screen outside with sunlight shining on the screen notice a detail as 'minor' as that. (I mean minor as in very difficult to spot on a screen designed to show if anyone is currently walking on or off the train, not minor as in not dangerous).

As I say, this isn't the place for that debate but there is a lot more to those incidents than one can gather from reading the report alone.

Imo all new trains should have an in-vehicle monitor, with high quality pictures. Example Fig 15 in the St James Street RAIB report. http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/121127_R222012_James_Street.pdf
Some other trains should have them fitted, eg Certain Merseyrail routes, DOO etc.
 

D365

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The doors wouldn't have opened unless you'd pressed the button, however, it's entirely possible there was a fault with the button/door.

Hello, please could you clarify your comment, I'm not exactly certain what you mean. My companion pressed the 'open door' button shortly before we arrived at the station, however after we became stuck and I pressed the button again, the doors didn't reopen.

I think the door buttons on a 365, or probably any modern train, will cease to function after the 'door lock' procedure has started. Do you remember if the button was illuminated? I don't suppose the driver will have unlocked all the doors, if any.

- last night for instance I watched somebody literally run down the stairs onto the platform and run straight at the now closed doors, bouncing off them.

I would pay good money to see that! I bet you laughed so hard! It sounds like one of those CCTV clips that you see on 'World's Most Stupid...' shows - gave me a giggle anyway!

Mr T's commentary on World's Craziest Fools... :P

Wrong button pushed?

If you are panicking/stressed, it is quite easy to push the wrong button by the door. I could go into the science as to why that behaviour is evident in people who are normally able to tell the buttons apart (there is actually some), but I won't. In fact, it's definitely not always down to panic anyway.

I was absolutely panicked, however I don't remember seeing multiple buttons, just the one to open the doors - this is the one my friend pressed prior to arriving at the station.

I assume you were trying to open the door from the outside, in which case you are correct, as the 365 'Networker Express' you were attempting to board only has the door open button externally. Read earlier.
 

Linziburns

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I think the door buttons on a 365, or probably any modern train, will cease to function after the 'door lock' procedure has started. Do you remember if the button was illuminated? I don't suppose the driver will have unlocked all the doors, if any.

I can't really remember but I don't think it was illuminated at that time.

I assume you were trying to open the door from the outside, in which case you are correct, as the 365 'Networker Express' you were attempting to board only has the door open button externally. Read earlier.
No, I could only reach the inside button, I only remember there being one button which my friend pressed before we arrived at the station. That button became illuminated at that time but I don't think it did when I pressed later.
 
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