Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central - 3 carriages only?

swt_passenger · 10 Feb 2013

lewisrday said:
No, as far as I know, it used to be Romsey, just without the stop at Chandlers Ford.

It didn't run at all before Chandlers Ford, see above.

lewisrday said:
I think that SWT should get some more EMUs and cascade as many 158s as possible to FGW, perhaps keeping a few for the Romsey 6s and keeping the 159s on Waterloo-West of England services. Perhaps SWT should withdraw the diesels from Fratton depot if at all possible, with Salisbury depot learning the Pompey direct line as a diversionary route, if they don't already do so.

I'm ready for slandering coming my way imminently

I don't think anyone would disagree with your point, I've made it myself as well. What I do disagree with is people suggesting SWT should give up the DMUs without replacement - like everyone else their overall stock levels are decided by DfT - who presumably accept the status quo in order to free up 450s for other peak hours strengthening.

I expect that if this change ever happened, once SWT 158s or 159s ceased to run in the Portsmouth area the train crew would cease to sign DMUs automatically. The only diversionary route normally used is Basingstoke to Salisbury via Southampton - it is incredibly rare for any SWT DMU to run on the Portsmouth direct.

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fgwrich said:
Wasnt this originally done to coincide with a possible service down to Marchwood at one point aswell?

Probably the other way around. IIRC Totton was chosen for the initial western terminus principally because it happened to have an offline siding available that could be re-instated for turn back. Once it was noticed trains were reversing there the suggestions to extend to Marchwood became more vocal.

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The Decapod · 10 Feb 2013

In recent years I've only ever seen 3-coach trains on this service. The trains are not proper 3-coach 158 sets, though, but one-and-a-half x two-coach sets, if you see what I mean!

Lrd · 10 Feb 2013

swt_passenger said:
I expect that if this change ever happened, once SWT 158s or 159s ceased to run in the Portsmouth area the train crew would cease to sign DMUs automatically. The only diversionary route normally used is Basingstoke to Salisbury via Southampton - it is incredibly rare for any SWT DMU to run on the Portsmouth direct.

I'm not sure why I mentioned the Portsmouth direct, I was somehow confusing Salisbury with Southampton.

Removing the once(?) a day 159 from the Portsmouth to Southampton stopper would mean no more diesels east of St Denys wouldn't it?

Also replacing the evening peak Basingstoke/Winchester to Southampton extras with EMUs would remove the diesels running over fully electrified lines.

anthony263 · 10 Feb 2013

tbtc said:
In a few years time there'll be EMUs doing the Cardiff - Bristol part of the service, with DMUs spared enhancing capacity on the Portsmouth end (presumably split at Bristol).

This is what I think will happen although I think one train per hour from Cardiff Central will continue to Bath Spa providing if there is a path available

Matt Taylor · 10 Feb 2013

My workings tomorrow are entirely on diesel units (excepting a quick hop from Southsea to Fratton), almost 100 miles of work but only 14 miles on non-electrified routes. This may sound like a waste but by using a diesel unit to get Solent commuters to Pompey and Southampton it releases a much need 450 unit for the London commute.

When South Wales & West initially took over the Pompey-Cardiff route in 1994 there were no workings of more than 2 coaches except for a 153 added at Westbury on the 0600 from Pompey and a 153 added at Bristol to the 1630 from Cardiff. By 1995 the 1524 from Pompey got 4 cars from Southampton on a Friday but it wasn't until 1997 that more regular lengthened trains became more regular. The 1524 from Portsmouth was joined to the 15xx from Waterloo for the Bristol to Newport sector, the 0600 from Portsmouth and 1630 from Cardiff were strengthened to 4 cards east of Newport (formed by a Newport-Liverpool-Newport unit). There was also a Portsmouth-Penzance working that involved a split at Westbury.

It wasn't until Wessex came into being that a new fleet of 3 car 158/9s was created for the Solent route but these were disbanded when FGW took over and in 2006/2007 the route operated with a mix of 158s, many of them displaced from TPX by the 185s. In 2008 the second fleet of 3 car 158/9s was created by FGW which is what now operates.

At various times Class 175s, 185s, 180s and 172s have been proposed for the line but nothing has materialised, the 158s have been on the route since 1991.

Muzer · 10 Feb 2013

I still don't understand why the 3-car fleet was disbanded. I might be completely making things up as I was rather young at the time but in the Wessex Trains days, I remember more regularly seeing longer trains than 3-cars. Was it decided longer trains were not needed?

@TheWalrus: I dunno, maybe you're travelling in the wrong times - when I'm on it's usually reasonably loaded (I've never seen it full though). Considering it's a reasonably regular and predictable service taking you to actually useful destinations, I have rather made a lot of use of it. I only wish there were a few more stoppers to/from BSK... but as it is, it's fine for me.

Lrd · 10 Feb 2013

Muzer said:
@TheWalrus: I dunno, maybe you're travelling in the wrong times - when I'm on it's usually reasonably loaded (I've never seen it full though). Considering it's a reasonably regular and predictable service taking you to actually useful destinations, I have rather made a lot of use of it. I only wish there were a few more stoppers to/from BSK... but as it is, it's fine for me.

I agree, I used to commute from Millbrook to Eastleigh using this service at various times of the day and it was usually full and standing from Southampton Airport up to Eastleigh, with a reasonable load from Southampton Central.

swt_passenger · 10 Feb 2013

Muzer said:
I still don't understand why the 3-car fleet was disbanded. I might be completely making things up as I was rather young at the time but in the Wessex Trains days, I remember more regularly seeing longer trains than 3-cars. Was it decided longer trains were not needed?

Basically, yes. The ITT for the incoming combined GW/Thames/Wessex franchise basically specified a reduced overall fleet size, and that Portsmouth - Cardiff was to be reverted to operation with two car 158s. I suspect no-one noticed until it was too late - and the blame was then passed to and fro between First and DfT for a good few years until (as Matt points out above) the 3 car units were re-created from about 2008 onwards.

tbtc · 10 Feb 2013

Matt Taylor said:
My workings tomorrow are entirely on diesel units (excepting a quick hop from Southsea to Fratton), almost 100 miles of work but only 14 miles on non-electrified routes. This may sound like a waste but by using a diesel unit to get Solent commuters to Pompey and Southampton it releases a much need 450 unit for the London commute

Talking of "using shorter trains on the south coast to free up longer ones for peak London services", in your experience would there be much use for 456s in the Portsmouth/ Southampton/ Bournemouth area?

Apart from the Lymington branch, I don't know whether there are other routes that could cope with a two coach EMU?

TEW · 10 Feb 2013

The plan is to use some of the 456s on Guildford-Ascot services which will free up additional 450s, but they'll be used to strengthen peak services.

Matt Taylor · 10 Feb 2013

There are currently 12 3 car 158/9s in use by FGW, I think Wessex trains used 8 units, 158961-158968:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/8460693399/in/photostream

There are no plans to use the 456s anywhere else but in multiple with 455s and on the Ascot to Guildford line.

ValleyLines142 · 10 Feb 2013

Greenback said:
Are you saying that because FGW do manage to run a few trains with more than one unit, that this means they should be able to add units to every service on the Cardiff to Portsmouth route?

Not to every service no, I agree there. Just in the peaks.

PHILIPE said:
Both these are heavily loaded commuter services. the 07 30 has a 150 attached only to Bristol Temple Meads for the morning rush. I don't think many people would be happy if what strengthening there is was to be removed !!!

Indeed so. I definitely didn't suggest removing the extra unit, if anything it should stay and the 1423 Portsmouth to Cardiff could do with a 150 attached too.

TheWalrus · 10 Feb 2013

That's interesting. I think I've only seen it between Salisbury and Romsey, is that the quieter end of the route?

Matt Taylor · 10 Feb 2013

The core of the route is Southampton to Bristol, FGW could cut the service back to just that but that require SWT or SN to operate an additional hourly fast service from Portsmouth to Southampton.

TEW · 10 Feb 2013

DanTrainMan185 said:
Indeed so. I definitely didn't suggest removing the extra unit, if anything it should stay and the 1423 Portsmouth to Cardiff could do with a 150 attached too.

But that 150 run ECS to Weston-super-Mare and then goes into service on the Taunton-Cardiff corridor for the rest of the day. If FGW had spare stock available they would strengthen more services.

BestWestern · 13 Feb 2013

Matt Taylor said:
The core of the route is Southampton to Bristol, FGW could cut the service back to just that but that require SWT or SN to operate an additional hourly fast service from Portsmouth to Southampton.

I'd have to say the Bristol - Cardiff chunk is a pretty busy corridor too, one of only two services an hour on the route.

Ultimately, FGW do the best they can with a limited fleet of units. If they had more stock, they would use it accordingly. Sadly, they don't have it. The nature of a full day schedule means that different trains are needed in different places at different times of the day, and on both of the strengthened services already mentioned, the additional unit is needed to fulfill other duties when it is detached.

No doubt the same discussion happens frequently up in Northern land too!

anthony263 · 13 Feb 2013

BestWestern said:
I'd have to say the Bristol - Cardiff chunk is a pretty busy corridor too, one of only two services an hour on the route.

Certainly true all the trains between Bristol TM & Cardiff Central are very well used and are extremely overcrowded at peak times.Hopefully we will see some improvements around Bristol once the class 165's (or whatever DMU's arrive) from the Thames Valley region.Network rail are supposed to be clearing thye various lines around Bristol to take the class 165's although I am not sure about certain platforms at Bristol TM and at Weston Super Mare.

I would split the Cardiff - Portsmouth route with a half hourly shuttle running between Bristol & Cardiff Central with hourly extensions to Bath Spa & Swansea using emu's perhaps class 319's that said a 4 carriage train may not be enough to cope with passenger numbers during the peaks which could rise further with the sparks effect so perhaps some 3 carriage class 319's could be used.

The Portsmouth - Bristol TM trains can then either terminate at Bristol or run to say Gloucester providing a 2nd service per hour between Bristol TM & Gloucester.

Goatboy · 13 Feb 2013

As I sit typing this message on a 150/0 on yet another long journey I would support almost anything that rectified the situation whereby SWT use 158s on short trips whilst FGW are stuck with 3+2 150 units on routes longer than many IC services

Michael.Y · 13 Feb 2013

This'll make you wince - yesterdays 14:00 to Taunton was a single 153.

Birdbrain · 13 Feb 2013

Exactly, its not just Portsmouth-Cardiff that needs more 158's it's Bristol/Exeter to Penzance that also needs 158's instead of 150.

TEW · 14 Feb 2013

BestWestern said:
I'd have to say the Bristol - Cardiff chunk is a pretty busy corridor too, one of only two services an hour on the route.

Generally though it does seem there is a large changeover of passengers at Bristol, so when the line is electrified it shouldn't be too much of a problem splitting the service at Bristol.

Muzer · 14 Feb 2013

IMHO the best solution is to build a time machine, go back to the late 80s and order more Class 158s

Kudoson · 14 Feb 2013

How frequent is the Westbury - Soton sprinter?If they were to extend that to Pompey, then that would sort that end of the journey out. Most passengers who start between Soton and Pompey are usually looking to get off at Westbury for connections to the south west.
SWT could help out too, if they extend the slow Pompey - Soton train to Salisbury, then that would give some stations on the Salisbury six a regular train. It would then be a question of giving the stations on the other side a service to Southampton, to free up the 158's and put them on routes like, The south coast - Bristol Temple Meads or even Exeter.

TEW · 14 Feb 2013

The FGW services to Southampton are pretty infrequent apart from the Portsmouth-Cardiff trains, it's just a couple a day really. The Portsmouth-Southampton SWT services are formed of 450s, so can't just be extended to Salisbury.

Drsatan · 14 Feb 2013

TEW said:
The FGW services to Southampton are pretty infrequent apart from the Portsmouth-Cardiff trains, it's just a couple a day really. The Portsmouth-Southampton SWT services are formed of 450s, so can't just be extended to Salisbury.

I believe Network SouthEast wanted to electrify the line from Southampton Central to Salisbury as part of the 'Solent Link' electrification program, but due to the impending privatisation of British Rail this didn't happen.

Electrification of that line and Romsey to Eastleigh would be useful since the three 158s used on the 'figure of six' service could then be sent elsewhere. It would then be possible to run a:

Hourly all-stations service from Portsmouth Harbour to Salisbury
Hourly all-stations Romsey to Totton service

using two or three extra 450s. An even more ambitious plan would be to extend the Romsey to Totton service to Lymington calling at all stations, although pathing the service from Totton to Brockenhurst might be problematic.

However, since electrification of both routes isn't mentioned in CP5 I doubt it'll happen anytime soon.

TEW · 15 Feb 2013

It's unlikely to gain third rail electrification now because of the conversion of Southampton-Basingstoke as part of the Electric Spine project. Southampton-Basingstoke via Salisbury is or is in the process of being enhanced to W10 gauge for the purposes of diversion from the main route via Winchester so it would make sense to also electrify it in the future to allow for diversions more easily.

Rhydgaled · 15 Feb 2013

Muzer said:
IMHO the best solution is to build a time machine, go back to the late 80s and order more Class 158s

I agree. It's not just FirstGW, ATW has far too few 158s (some 156s wouldn't go amiss either, for Pembrokeshire - Swansea and Heart Of Wales Line, perhaps Conwy valley too).

Shame nobody can build something like a 158 (a useful, lightweight and cheap-to-run regional express DMU) now, they'd probably get 30 years use before electrification covers every line.

Failing time-machines, electrify Southampton to Romsey and get some more 444s (or similar) to cascade some 450s to Lymingnton and Southampton - Romsey. Actually, you'd still need a time machine for that as there's no time to do any more electrification in CP5 and we need to wire up IC routes fast to avoid requiring a stop-gap IC-DMU (IEP bi-mode) for a few years.

anthony263 said:
Hopefully we will see some improvements around Bristol once the class 165's (or whatever DMU's arrive) from the Thames Valley region.Network rail are supposed to be clearing thye various lines around Bristol to take the class 165's although I am not sure about certain platforms at Bristol TM and at Weston Super Mare.

I would split the Cardiff - Portsmouth route with a half hourly shuttle running between Bristol & Cardiff Central with hourly extensions to Bath Spa & Swansea using emu's perhaps class 319's that said a 4 carriage train may not be enough to cope with passenger numbers during the peaks which could rise further with the sparks effect so perhaps some 3 carriage class 319's could be used.

If the 166s/165s are heading west (I still think it'd be better to send them to the north-east where they don't need to clear the lines) then I would:

Turn Cardiff - Taunton into Swansea - Bristol/Bath, using EMUs
Put 165s/166s on a Taunton-Gloucester/Malvern service (replacing the southern half of Cardiff - Taunton and the northern half of Weymouth - Gloucester/Malvern) and Severn Beach line (if the service is self-contained)
Any stoppers there may be between Taunton and Exeter, including branches (Exeter - Exmouth for example, if the service is self-contained)

If it isn't too hard to clear the necessary routes for the 166s/165s of course.

I really hope they don't put 166s/165s on the Cardiff-Portsmouth, it wouldn't make the trains any longer and 158s are much more suitable on Cardiff-Portsmouth than suburban trains like 166s/165s. Really I'd like to see 4-car 158s doing Portsmouth/Southampton - Cardiff, with a single 2-car 158 detaching there and extending to Carmarthen/Milford Haven/Fishguard via the Swansea District Line, but I'm pretty sure sure you can't actually get anymore 158s from anywhere, unless you put 165s on the SWT Salisbury-Southampton-Romsey or Scottish electrification releases some.

jimm · 15 Feb 2013

Rhydgaled said:
If the 166s/165s are heading west (I still think it'd be better to send them to the north-east where they don't need to clear the lines)

What is this obsession you have with shifting entire fleets of trains around the country?

Network Rail would probably need to clear a few lines to get them to the North East first... those maps were a paper exercise. No-one took a 165 and 166 on tour to see where lumps got knocked off.

According to the maps for the Class 165, they don't actually get a clean bill of health clearance-wise on, er, the Chiltern main line... while according to the maps for the 166s, they can't get to Weymouth, except they can http://www.clpg.co.uk/sptrns3.htm

Tackling any issues with Turbos on former GWR routes will be far less of a problem than tackling them on routes built to the tighter clearances used by other railway companies.

SussexSpotter · 16 Feb 2013

Will the hourly through service between Portsmouth and Cardiff actually need to run at the current frequency once the electric spine between Reading and Southampton is built with the overheads, and the Reading station development is completed?

Would an hourly service between Portsmouth and Reading using a Class 450 (with pantograph) be better, so passengers for the north or the west country can simply make 1 change at Reading? Perhaps provide a limited number of through services between Portsmouth and Cardiff during peak times? The First Great Western services could then be cut back to Southampton or Salisbury to free up rolling stock? Just a thought....

Greenback · 16 Feb 2013

SussexSpotter said:
Will the hourly through service between Portsmouth and Cardiff actually need to run at the current frequency once the electric spine between Reading and Southampton is built with the overheads, and the Reading station development is completed?

Would an hourly service between Portsmouth and Reading using a Class 450 (with pantograph) be better, so passengers for the north or the west country can simply make 1 change at Reading? Perhaps provide a limited number of through services between Portsmouth and Cardiff during peak times? The First Great Western services could then be cut back to Southampton or Salisbury to free up rolling stock? Just a thought....

In a centrally planned railway system that might be a very good suggestion. Passengers between the two major cities of Portsmouth, Southampton, Bristol and Cardiff would be encouraged to use the electrified route with longer trains and more capacity.

I am not sure how many paths would be available though, given that freight traffic is quite a heavy user of the Southampton - Reading section, so it may not be feasible.

Another thought is that under the present system of fares, it is usually far cheaper to travel via Westbury than Reading. Maybe that will change once electrification and longer trains are introduced on the GWML, but it certainly puts me off travelling via Reading at the moment.

Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central - 3 carriages only?

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