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Most under-developed rail corridor? (examples)

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Toots

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Hopefully if SELRAP get their way there may be a direct route to Skipton instead of having to take the train to Leeds then changing trains for Skipton, imagine the time you'd save if there was a direct train to Skipton.

Investing on the lines in East Lancashire surely would pay dividends. On the Bolton Clitheroe line why not do what they did on the Kilmarnock Glasgow line and install a dynamic loop and increase services to 2 trains an hour? Surely a dynamic loop would not cost as much to install? Another thing that should be looked at is not just installing the knitting as far as Bolton but extend it to Clitheroe, that way their would be no need to use diesel units beyond Bolton, the advantage being the Manchester Bolton - Preston (via Lostock Junction) Clitheroe being all electric traction.

SELRAP will not get their way and there will not be a direct route to Skipton.The fact is there isn't the money nor the political will to carry it out, plus the commercial case for such an outlay would be very difficult to substantiate.
I'm afraid the same can be said of electrification as far as Clitheroe,it will never happen,the very best we could hope for,would be redoubling the pinch points on the Bolton to Blackurn stretch and perhaps,and some would argue more crucially,the Daisyfield curve....
 
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tbtc

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It would be good if they did.
Do you know if the trackbed still fairly intact between Deepcar and Penistone, and what is the condition of Thurgoland tunnel?

It's the Transpennine Trail - I was along it in December - the ground seems in reasonable condition (for runners/ dog walkers/ cyclists etc), but no rails to be seen.

You can even walk through the north/west bound bore of the tunnel - its lit
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
SELRAP will not get their way and there will not be a direct route to Skipton.The fact is there isn't the money nor the political will to carry it out, plus the commercial case for such an outlay would be very difficult to substantiate.
I'm afraid the same can be said of electrification as far as Clitheroe,it will never happen,the very best we could hope for,would be redoubling the pinch points on the Bolton to Blackurn stretch and perhaps,and some would argue more crucially,the Daisyfield curve....

Totally agree - it's fantasy
 
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It would be good if they did.
Do you know if the trackbed still fairly intact between Deepcar and Penistone, and what is the condition of Thurgoland tunnel?

It's the Transpennine Trail - I was along it in December - the ground seems in reasonable condition (for runners/ dog walkers/ cyclists etc), but no rails to be seen.

You can even walk through the north/west bound bore of the tunnel - its lit

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=thurgoland+tunnel
 

lyndhurst25

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I'd have thought that there would be a reasonable demand for a fast Liverpool - North Wales - Holyhead service via a reinstated Halton Curve. Currently passengers have to take the painfully slow Merseyrail stopper and change at Chester. From experience I can tell you that a daily commute from Liverpool to North Wales is no fun (Mersey Tunnel and single-carriageway A650 from Hooton to Queensferry). I'd imagine that there would be a fair bit of holiday traffic and passengers for the Irish ferries too.


Other potential services, this time not requiring lines to be rebuilt would be :-

Manchester - Hope Valley - MML - St Pancras (could compete on price but probably not speed).

Sheffield - Worksop - ECML - Kings Cross (may even be faster than via the MML - didn't the Master Cutler used to go that way in the 1950s?).

Look at the positive effects that the Virgin / Chiltern competition has done for Birmingham - London services. Maybe Manchester and Sheffield could benefit from a similar situation? No doubt Virgin and and EMT respectively wouldn't be too happy but I say stuff them! Privatisation has given us a fragmented railway with very little of the competition benefits that were promised. Look at the fares that Virgin charge from Manchester to London - they're definitely milking it!
 

LE Greys

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I'd have thought that there would be a reasonable demand for a fast Liverpool - North Wales - Holyhead service via a reinstated Halton Curve. Currently passengers have to take the painfully slow Merseyrail stopper and change at Chester. From experience I can tell you that a daily commute from Liverpool to North Wales is no fun (Mersey Tunnel and single-carriageway A650 from Hooton to Queensferry). I'd imagine that there would be a fair bit of holiday traffic and passengers for the Irish ferries too.


Other potential services, this time not requiring lines to be rebuilt would be :-

Manchester - Hope Valley - MML - St Pancras (could compete on price but probably not speed).

Sheffield - Worksop - ECML - Kings Cross (may even be faster than via the MML - didn't the Master Cutler used to go that way in the 1950s?).

Look at the positive effects that the Virgin / Chiltern competition has done for Birmingham - London services. Maybe Manchester and Sheffield could benefit from a similar situation? No doubt Virgin and and EMT respectively wouldn't be too happy but I say stuff them! Privatisation has given us a fragmented railway with very little of the competition benefits that were promised. Look at the fares that Virgin charge from Manchester to London - they're definitely milking it!

The Master Cutler did just that until London Midland Region got their hands on it. Also, we had Project Rio on St Pancras-Manchester during the WCML upgrade. I was hoping that would continue, but it didn't. IIRC, Virgin managed to get Project Rio shut down to protect their London-Manchester monopoly after the upgrade.

To split the two, I would support extending some of the Newark terminators (the ones that were supposed to go to Lincoln) to Sheffield in competition with EMT, at least until electrification on the MML, when increased speeds will take away their advantage. In compensation, EMT could get a slice of the Manchester market, partly to see what Virgin decide to do in response. I'm not sure how to path it, but with EMT already having an hourly path into Piccadilly for Norwich-Liverpool, there's a possibility to make it half-hourly and extend the current Sheffield service. The inevitable post-electrification speed-up will only help this.
 

s'land

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The obvious one being the Leamside, I suppose. Personally, I don't mind light rail and heavy rail sharing tracks, provided they don't use incompatible equipment. So they should have either electrified it with 3rd rail, or built 25kV Metro units with some form of transformer. The first is probably less expensive, and doesn't totally preclude dual-electrification one day.

Fair enough but having mixed heavy and light tracffic sharing tracks has not left much spare capacity.
 

rail2016

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It's the Transpennine Trail - I was along it in December - the ground seems in reasonable condition (for runners/ dog walkers/ cyclists etc), but no rails to be seen.

You can even walk through the north/west bound bore of the tunnel - its lit
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Totally agree - it's fantasy

Once again, your not even reading all the info on the rail project, which all stacks up, plenty of backing, and a Multi Nation standing on the side lines, waiting for the next part of the study which is the GRIP 3, of which has Northern Rail, Network Rail and Pendle Council all contributing in some way, from all the studies that have been carried out in the past, the rail project stacks up.

And it's a well known fact that your HS2 project will not work unless you have the missing regional links in place, which has also been raised in political circles at high level, and I will also point out that under the RGF funding, our project was at Minister level for approval, it was only the fact that we didn't have the Grip 3 study in place that the £40 m funding bid was knocked back, and as a group, have been told to submit a bid again when the Grip 3 is in place.

You really have no clue on how important this missing link is, and the fact that so many People and Business would benefit from the project, and the fact that it's the cheapest link over the pennines to operate, due to the fact, you have no tunnels, Low gradient, and no steep embankments. it is the New Inter Regional Rail Link over the Pennines, and you can't take the facts away.

By the way, if you can stop being so bloody Negative, this seems to be some Lancashire thing, A Can't do attitude to every thing in life.

Their is no such thing as can't, It's Can, Can, Can, Can, Can, Can Do.
 

tbtc

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Once again, your not even reading all the info on the rail project, which all stacks up, plenty of backing, and a Multi Nation standing on the side lines, waiting for the next part of the study which is the GRIP 3, of which has Northern Rail, Network Rail and Pendle Council all contributing in some way, from all the studies that have been carried out in the past, the rail project stacks up.

And it's a well known fact that your HS2 project will not work unless you have the missing regional links in place, which has also been raised in political circles at high level, and I will also point out that under the RGF funding, our project was at Minister level for approval, it was only the fact that we didn't have the Grip 3 study in place that the £40 m funding bid was knocked back, and as a group, have been told to submit a bid again when the Grip 3 is in place.

You really have no clue on how important this missing link is, and the fact that so many People and Business would benefit from the project, and the fact that it's the cheapest link over the pennines to operate, due to the fact, you have no tunnels, Low gradient, and no steep embankments. it is the New Inter Regional Rail Link over the Pennines, and you can't take the facts away.

By the way, if you can stop being so bloody Negative, this seems to be some Lancashire thing, A Can't do attitude to every thing in life.

Their is no such thing as can't, It's Can, Can, Can, Can, Can, Can Do.

Go on then, give me some good reasons for SELRAP? I've read enough about it and the benefits seem to be very slim.

A few reasons why I think its a waste of time:

There's already a regular service from Leeds and Bradford to Burnley, Accrington and Blackburn

The main trans-pennine route of Leeds - Manchester is going to have six EMUs an hour in a few years time (a massive capacity increase on what we currently have), which weakens the case for SELRAP

When we had a thread on this a couple of years ago I worked out that for many of the journeys used to back SELRAP (like Keighley to Manchester) you'd be quicker using existing services and changing at Leeds

The current line from Clitheroe to Hellifield gets a token Sunday service and nothing else (which kind of suggests that there's no huge market to get from the western side of North Yorkshire to East Lancashire - nobody's even tried running some Manchester Victoria - Clitheroe services on to Skipton via Hellifield (which wouldn't need all of the costs of reopenening a line).

I know that the SELRAP enthusiasts have this wonderful idea about a new core freight line (which ignores the lack of spare paths between Shipley and Leeds) and even a fast route from Yorkshire to Lancashire ("New Inter Regional Rail Link" etc), but it's not going to happen.

It'd be fairly cheap (in the grand scheme of things) to stick extra coaches on the existing York - Leeds - Bradford - Burnley - Accrington - Blackburn - Preston - Blackpool route, or to run some direct services from Skipton to Blackburn/ Manchester (via Clitheroe). I could debate the merits of those, but that's not as exciting as spending millions of pounds rebuilding a line, is it?
 
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Skipton-Colne will never happen. The Tod Curve saw to that! There is no way the area will get another multi-million pound investment.

I also agree with those who say the business case doesn't stack up. The long distance journey opportunities are overstated as most of them can easily be completed using alternative routes. Some of the traffic it attracts will just be taken from other routes. That may be a good thing to relieve overcrowding, but its a very indirect way of doing that. As for freight, what freight? I can think of only one regular train that might possibly benefit and that is the Preston Oil Tanks because it struggles a bit up Copy Pit. But apart from that everything else can go via the S+C. Any freight it does attract will have to traverse the WCML where Class 6 paths are very hard to come by, especially southbound.

That leaves us with essentially two small/medium sized deprived towns in Nelson and Colne. I feel for those places. In rush hour traffic they are just a bit too far from everywhere important. Unless you've got a job on the outskirts of Manchester/Leeds, commuting is hard work. It probably goes someway to explaining the economic difficulties they face. There is certainly a small commuter flow to Steeton and Silsden and onwards to Bradford and Leeds but I doubt its significant enough to re-open the line. An express bus service is probably the most pragmatic thing the area could hope for. Burnley Manchester Road - Burnley - Nelson - Colne - Steeton just might work but it would need funding, although vastly less than the rail route.

If we're serious about spending money on Nelson and Colne a curve at Gannow Jn and doubling to allow a Colne-Manchester service would provide more benefits to the respective towns, although the civil engineering required at Gannow would be very significant with the M65 link roads dominating the area.

I agree with the initial point about the line being underdeveloped, but that's because it goes to wrong place. Preston City Centre is a fairly insignificant destination for commuting and leisure from East Lancashire. Its all about Manchester, and the line will benefit from a better links to the much bigger job and leisure market that it provides.
 
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Blackpool to Skipton by rail takes over 3 and a half hours, with a walk from Bradford Ex to Forster Square - a day return is over £33.
Via Colne would be under 2 hours and under £20.
Otherwise bus from Colne to Skipton, or bus Blackpool/Preston to Skipton etc.
 

yorksrob

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I'd dearly like to see SELRAP succeed. I've no doubt that the link would soon prove itself to be useful. It's just how do you get over the initial capital cost, particularly bearing in mind preserved railways manage to put tracks down for less than NR seem to manage.

I'm reminded of the last report into Uckfield - Lewes, which admitted that a single track diesel link would actually cover its running costs, if only there were some way to finance the construction.
 
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Is there a huge market from Blackpool to Skipton? Enough to put 50-100 bums seats for 16 hours a day? I doubt it. There is a direct bus from Preston to Skipton which only takes 90 minutes and a single decker more that copes. Hardly a pent up demand. Contrast that to the Burnley Manchester buses where double deckers leave every 10-15 minutes in the peak and that shows what pent up demand is, and why the Tod curve got approved.
 

tbtc

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Is there a huge market from Blackpool to Skipton? Enough to put 50-100 bums seats for 16 hours a day? I doubt it

I doubt it too.

The Todmorden chord (which you go on to mention) will be much more important to East Lancashire - a direct service to Rochdale and Manchester.

If any more money is going to be spent on infrastructure in that neck of the woods then the next place to spend the cash would be on the line south of Blackburn - dynamic looks to allow the service to Bolton and Manchester to be half hourly.

SELRAP is a solution in need of a problem - the more pressing problems are the links from East Lancashire to Manchester (and much easier to solve).
 

yorksrob

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Is there a huge market from Blackpool to Skipton? Enough to put 50-100 bums seats for 16 hours a day? I doubt it. There is a direct bus from Preston to Skipton which only takes 90 minutes and a single decker more that copes. Hardly a pent up demand. Contrast that to the Burnley Manchester buses where double deckers leave every 10-15 minutes in the peak and that shows what pent up demand is, and why the Tod curve got approved.

Is there a huge market for Skipton to Lancaster ? Blackpool to Colne etc ? Traffic on such routes is generally made up of a number of smaller flows between several towns rather than everything going end to end.

I've made all these arguments in threads previously, however, my point is that if the initial investment could be financed somehow, it would do the area no end of good in terms of transport links and greatly improve the viability of the existing branch.
 

biggus

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Preston City Centre is a fairly insignificant destination for commuting and leisure from East Lancashire.

Perhaps Preston is not a major commuting destination from East Lancashire because there is no decent train service, it is a miserable commute by car, parking is a headache and in any case East Lancs has relatively low levels of car ownership....

It is well known that road improvements produce their own demand which is why they struggle to relieve congestion.... why do we think improved railways should be any different? (Except that an improved two track railway can absorb a lot more new traffic than an improved two lane road)

Arguably money should be spent on revitalising the line before extending it to Skipton. But then again, I believe hundreds of millions has been targeted at trying to regenerate Nelson, Colne and East Lancs, where houses are practically worthless... If these towns were linked to employment centres by improved rail links, including SELRAP's, we wouldn't have to piddle our taxes away hanging window boxes etc around these towns, cos the houses would be worth something and homeowners would be investing their own money in them.

Properly linking the line to the east with well designed services would obviously generate demand, greatly improving the economic viability of the railway... Why would you not choose to live somewhere with much lower house prices if you could get to work on time on a decent train? (Colne is quite a pretty town.)

The problem that SELRAP addresses is not a railways problem, it is an economic problem with the railways at the heart of the solution.
 
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Is there a huge market for Skipton to Lancaster ? Blackpool to Colne etc ? Traffic on such routes is generally made up of a number of smaller flows between several towns rather than everything going end to end

Indeed not, but if the link between Settle Junction and Carnforth had previously been severed, it would not be one of my priorities to re-open.

Skipton - Colne goes in the box of "would be nice". However, there are many more schemes that are "essential to have", that take precedent, given that finances are limited, and the benefits are questionable in many people's eyes.

There are also many problems that haven't been addressed. If the line was to be successful, it would only serve to increase the overcrowding on the Airedale line, for example.
 

yorksrob

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Indeed not, but if the link between Settle Junction and Carnforth had previously been severed, it would not be one of my priorities to re-open.

Skipton - Colne goes in the box of "would be nice". However, there are many more schemes that are "essential to have", that take precedent, given that finances are limited, and the benefits are questionable in many people's eyes.

There are also many problems that haven't been addressed. If the line was to be successful, it would only serve to increase the overcrowding on the Airedale line, for example.

But my point is that if only there some way of financing the initial capital cost of such links, they would soon prove immeasurably useful. There are various lines I'd like to see re-opened. The prize will go to those with the local political backing.
 
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Properly linking the line to the east with well designed services would obviously generate demand, greatly improving the economic viability of the railway... Why would you not choose to live somewhere with much lower house prices if you could get to work on time on a decent train? (Colne is quite a pretty town.)

The problem that SELRAP addresses is not a railways problem, it is an economic problem with the railways at the heart of the solution.

If there were to be increased demand, you are right in that it is more likely to come from people in and around Leeds re-locating to cheaper housing. At the risk of making a sweeping generalisation, I have reservations about whether significant swaths of the population of Colne and Nelson have the right skills to take well paid City type jobs.

In any case I'm unconvinced large amounts of Leeds residents will take flight to live in Colne. The town itself is very deprived, with poor housing stock and riddled with drugs and anti-social behavoir.

Don't get me wrong, the line will be "used", some commuter flows will be generated, but nowhere near enough to justify a re-opening ahead of all the other schemes that are being proposed. I also think we are overstating the economic draw of Leeds. East Lancashire is much more aligned to Manchester, which would give greater benefits to Nelson Colne and Burnley.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But my point is that if only there some way of financing the initial capital cost of such links, they would soon prove immeasurably useful. There are various lines I'd like to see re-opened. The prize will go to those with the local political backing.

Every new bit of infrastructure is useful, obviously. But money is finite, will Skipton-Colne be more useful than doubling Blackburn-Bolton, or a loop on the Fylde line? Or an East Curve at Gannow? Or a new road? Or or or? You get my point. None of us really knows, though. But I'd argue that SELRAP shouldn't be Lancashire's Number 1 priority.
 

yorksrob

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Every new bit of infrastructure is useful, obviously. But money is finite, will Skipton-Colne be more useful than doubling Blackburn-Bolton, or a loop on the Fylde line? Or an East Curve at Gannow? Or a new road? Or or or? You get my point. None of us really knows, though. But I'd argue that SELRAP shouldn't be Lancashire's Number 1 priority.

I've no doubt all of those things would probably be useful. Perhaps they ought to get a bit of a campaign behind them.
 

tbtc

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Perhaps Preston is not a major commuting destination from East Lancashire because there is no decent train service

There's two trains an hour to Preston from Burnley/ Accrington/ Blackburn - is that not "decent" enough?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Every new bit of infrastructure is useful, obviously. But money is finite, will Skipton-Colne be more useful than doubling Blackburn-Bolton, or a loop on the Fylde line?

No - there are much bigger priorities than SELRAP
 

yorksrob

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Anything else whilst this fantasy chequebook is out?

Uckfield Lewes for a starter.

When one considers the amount of roadway constructed to cater for out of town housing and industrial estates etc it really shouldn't cost the earth to reinstate a few missing links with minimal signalling and single track on intact trackbeds around the network.
 
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It shouldn't, but the Todmorden Curve at a cost of £8million for 500 meters of track on derelict trackbed demonstrates that this is not the case.

With regards to roads serving out of town development, developers usually meet the costs associated with link roads etc, so there is often no cost to the taxpayer, their maintenance being funded by business rates that the new premises generate.

As well as money being finite, the resources such as construction companies are finite as well. They would be much better employed building something with a much higher benefit cost ratio.
 

biggus

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It shouldn't, but the Todmorden Curve at a cost of £8million for 500 meters of track on derelict trackbed demonstrates that this is not the case.

With regards to roads serving out of town development, developers usually meet the costs associated with link roads etc, so there is often no cost to the taxpayer, their maintenance being funded by business rates that the new premises generate.

As well as money being finite, the resources such as construction companies are finite as well. They would be much better employed building something with a much higher benefit cost ratio.

With regards to the cost of the Tod Curve, £8 million is play money by road-bulding standards. Since this is presumably a pro-rail form, why do we begrudge every penny that is spent on the industry?!

With regards to developers paying for infrastructure investments, the usual mechanism is the S106 planning agreement with the local authority. There is nothing stopping the Local Authority designating the developer's contribution to be spent on local rail infrastructure. Kilbride group proposed this for the Uckfield Lewes reopening. Thousands of houses are to be built on the territory which the missing link would serve but the County Council would rather see the money spent on highways. One might speculate that in part this is to keep its own mandarins employed as it can tender for road but not rail building contracts in-house.

As a former employee of a different County Council, I can assure you that there are plenty of people in these organisations who care nothing for the tax payer or the good of the wider world and look only at protecting their jobs and jobs for the boys (and girls) they work with. Generally the junior officers work very hard trying to make up for the dead wood and the old-timers who are in it for a warm chair and a nice pension but the further up the greasy pole you climb, the more you are expected to think like a politician... you can guess the rest.

Regarding BCRs these are notoriously flawed political concoctions which often stand in the way of good judgement and have to be taken with a huge fistful of salt. IMHO they only really have a place in comparing apples to apples - for engineers and planners working with economists in a narrow frame of reference and choosing between similar solutions to similar problems they are probably a good tool. For new-build projects (and reinstatements) my impression is that the models are about as reliable and as meaningful as astrology. Anyone care to prove me wrong? Whatever side of a debate you are on, you can find a lot wrong with BCRs.
 
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With regards to the cost of the Tod Curve, £8 million is play money by road-bulding standards. Since this is presumably a pro-rail form, why do we begrudge every penny that is spent on the industry?!

That wasn't my point, £8million may be loose change in the big scheme of things but for 500 yards of track but it shows how expensive development of even a pre-existing rail trackbed can be. Colne-Skipton has the thorny issue of bridging North Valley Road over the rail-line. You can forget a level crossing, nobody will sign a new crossing off over a major dual carriageway A-Road that is on the border of a 50mph zone, which is busy at the best of times in today's risk adverse culture. I don't begrudge spending money on the network but in an area that undoubtably needs subsidy to operate, it needs to provide value for money. SELRAP just doesn't. Get the really important stuff done first, then think about it, maybe.

As a former employee of a different County Council, I can assure you that there are plenty of people in these organisations who care nothing for the tax payer or the good of the wider world and look only at protecting their jobs and jobs for the boys (and girls) they work with. Generally the junior officers work very hard trying to make up for the dead wood and the old-timers who are in it for a warm chair and a nice pension but the further up the greasy pole you climb, the more you are expected to think like a politician... you can guess the rest.

I agree wholeheartedly with that, but not entirely sure what its got to do with SELRAP?

Anyone care to prove me wrong? Whatever side of a debate you are on, you can find a lot wrong with BCRs.

I also entirely agree with that! But the concept of a BCR is perfectly valid. You naturally want to concentrate on schemes that give a higher benefit per unit of cost. How the BCR figure is achieved is something we could argue over forever and a day. However the basic concept is something we understand in our daily lives and practice without really thinking about it, but call it something a little more plain English - value for money!
 

tbtc

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With regards to the cost of the Tod Curve, £8 million is play money by road-bulding standards. Since this is presumably a pro-rail form, why do we begrudge every penny that is spent on the industry?!

...because its hard to justify spending silly money on things when there's other things that the money could be spent on.

It only takes a couple of stupidly expensive projects for the rest of the country to notice and then it becomes a lot harder to justify any future investment.

Sometimes the rail industry does itself no favours.
 

biggus

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Every new bit of infrastructure is useful, obviously. But money is finite, will Skipton-Colne be more useful than doubling Blackburn-Bolton, or a loop on the Fylde line? Or an East Curve at Gannow? Or a new road? Or or or? You get my point. None of us really knows, though. But I'd argue that SELRAP shouldn't be Lancashire's Number 1 priority.

I get your point, but I think you are also making mine for me. Infrastructure investment is a politically driven process, not a technically driven process. Always has been political and always will be. The politicians will always pretend it aint so, and too many people will believe them.

The more campaigns there are for railway schemes, ANY railway scheme, the more money will be allocated to railways (in the medium-long term). I think more money for rail is a good thing.

Its not a choice between SELRAP and a loop on the Fylde line, or even some more knitting in the Southwest. It is a choice between SELRAP and another round of tax cuts for bankers or the mind-boggling politically-driven idiocy of the road vehicle scrappage scheme (was that GBP 400 million or even more in the end?)

Are you a fan of HS2? Thank SELRAP, Wealdenline, and all the others. They played a part, because all these organisations provide the message "PEOPLE WANT RAILWAYS". Will HS2 take 30 billion out of Britain's railways budget? Or will it draw in an extra 30 billion that would have been spent on roads and airports (or tax cuts for bankers)?

Technically, the national railways have lots of priorities ahead of SELRAP, thats a no-brainer. But from the point of view of regenerating East Lancs, sorting the railways promises an enormous return on investment, and SELRAP makes sense as part of that (but if it has to be built as an extension of a clapped out branchline, so be it). Its not about the benefits to the railways, its about the benefits to the local economy.

For people in East Lancs its about cost-effective ways of regenerating the whole area. For the rest of us its about getting more money for railways overall and secondarily, yes, there will be some benefits to the rest of the network however hard to quantify ahead of time. If you are in East Lancs, you probably want Bolton-Blackburn sorted too. Why is it wrong to want both?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...because its hard to justify spending silly money on things when there's other things that the money could be spent on.

It only takes a couple of stupidly expensive projects for the rest of the country to notice and then it becomes a lot harder to justify any future investment.

Sometimes the rail industry does itself no favours.

Things cost money. 8 million is peanuts.

If you want examples of silly amounts being spent on silly things, give the railway industry a break and eye up some road schemes: Vast sums of money, horrible outcomes. Seen all the motorways that have ruined Glasgow City Centre? That wasn't exactly cheap, and it wasn't exactly wise. I don't think todays railways even afford the opportunity for stupidity on such a scale.

Heres a special piece of "local authority managed" genius for you... 123 million (estimated) for 4.8 km or road (that's the cost of 8 Todmorden Curves)
http://infrastructure.planningportal.gov.uk/projects/north-west/heysham-to-m6-link-road/
 
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