• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

How does the conductor give the RIGHT AWAY INDICATOR to the platform staff

Status
Not open for further replies.
3

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,655
According to the rule book station duties and station dispatch 6.1

There may be occasion when the conductor has to give the right away indictor to the station staff who relay this to the driver via a right away indicator if there is one or directly to the driver if the driver can not see the conductor give the signal

can I confirm then in this case the conductor gives the signal to the platform staff the same way platform staff give the signal to the driver.. by green flag/light?

secondly 7.5 is confusing starting a DO train fitted with central door locking.. it says you must make sure all doors on train are properly closed etc then says give READY-TO-START signal to the driver.. surely you would give the STATION WORK COMPLETE signal first? would be far clearer if it mentions this here despite it being mentioned under 6.3 where it does indeed state the STATION WORK COMPLETE signals to the driver of a DO train the doors are ready to be closed..


as an aside one platform at three bridges does not have dispatch staff.. the fcc plaform. Are the 319s not dispatched at all by southern staff then? I think at East Croydon they use the cd and ra buttons?
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

C

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
That would be correct but remember a lot of stations have an RA indicator for the dispatcher to use rather than flags/lamps.

Dunno about the other issue though.
 
T

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,849
The station using RA indicators for non-DOO services would be the main occasion when the guard would give the RA signal to the platform staff using a green flag/lamp, for them then to convey the signal to driver using the RA indicators.
 
P

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
If the platform is on a curve and the train long, and the guard is unable to see the front of the train(where flag in use) the "Right ASway" would have to be relayed by the platform staff to the driver.
 
H

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
ml said:
secondly 7.5 is confusing starting a DO train fitted with central door locking.. it says you must make sure all doors on train are properly closed etc then says give READY-TO-START signal to the driver.. surely you would give the STATION WORK COMPLETE signal first? would be far clearer if it mentions this here despite it being mentioned under 6.3 where it does indeed state the STATION WORK COMPLETE signals to the driver of a DO train the doors are ready to be closed....
Click to expand...

'Station Work Complete' is 'Close Doors', 'Ready to Start' is 'Right Away'. So it should be:

  • Signal Check
  • Check doorways clear
  • Station Work Complete signal given (Close Doors)
  • Doors are closed
  • Doors confirmed as closed and clear of obstructions
  • Ready to Start signal given (Right Away)
  • Train proceeds


ml said:
....as an aside one platform at three bridges does not have dispatch staff.. the fcc plaform. Are the 319s not dispatched at all by southern staff then? I think at East Croydon they use the cd and ra buttons?
Click to expand...

IIRC from my time at Thameslink, they were self dispatch at Three Bridges.
 
asylumxl

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
hairyhandedfool said:
'Station Work Complete' is 'Close Doors', 'Ready to Start' is 'Right Away'. So it should be:

  • Signal Check
  • Check doorways clear
  • Station Work Complete signal given (Close Doors)
  • Doors are closed
  • Doors confirmed as closed and clear of obstructions
  • Ready to Start signal given (Right Away)
  • Train proceeds
Click to expand...

With the guard left on the platform :lol:.
 
wessex

wessex

Member
Joined
15 Apr 2010
Messages
150
Location
Dorset
doo at three bridges is by platform mirrors or looking back on 319's or cab monitors on 377's
 
T

Trainbuff

Member
Joined
1 Jan 2011
Messages
120
Location
Plymouth
Some stations require use of Green Lamp (Birmingham New Street), Green Lamp/Flag (Manchester Piccadilly) as a Mandatory dispatch. RA is then given to driver by platform staff. What other stations require this as a necessity?
 
Aictos

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
At Stevenage, East Coast trains are dispatched as usual BUT the driver actually has to stand on the platform and look back to where the guard is in order to see the green given by the guard when the bell buzzer is not working.

Station staff cannot give RA to driver as front cab is a good 2 or three coaches ahead of the RA indicator.
 
TheEdge

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,489
Location
Norwich
At Liverpool Street on the Norwich trains once the second signal is given the guards board the train, give a green light to platform staff who then operate the RA button from the platform. So no use of the bell buzzer.
 
Cherry_Picker

Cherry_Picker

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
2,796
Location
Birmingham
Pendolinos are always (or almost always) dispatched with a RA indicator from platform staff to the driver as far as I am aware. I'm sure there has to be places where they self dispatch, for some reason I think Tamworth or Lichfield might be such a place, but those locations are few and far between.
 
BestWestern

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Ah, knackered buzzers - everybody's favourite defect! :)

Some HST Drivers, when they know the bell-buzzer is not working, will observe from the cab door and wait for the Guard's green flag, meaning the platform staff don't need to light up the RA. You'll then usually get a tone on the horn as an acknowledgement of the Right Away. The proper way of doing things is to take the first tip and lock the doors as normal, then when you get the second tip board the train, shut your door and hang your flag/lamp out of the window. Dispatchers then light up the RA for the Driver to see.

This is one of those situations where there a number of ways, some more official than others, of getting the job done. It obviously isn't helped by the fact that every TOC seems to want to do it differently! On multiple units, a common way around the Driver/Guard buzzer failing is to simply return to the rear cab and give 'two' on the cab-to-cab telephone (this has a 'call' button which emits a 'beep' different to the buzzer). Another not-quite-Rulebook method is to dispatch from the front, shut the doors and give a firm 'bang bang' on the bulkhead, this also ensures your Driver is awake! On a 150/1 (swing doors, droplight windows), I've dispatched from the front with heads out of windows and simply shouted "Right away". So long as the Driver gets the message clearly, and you have a way of stopping the train if you need to, you tend to use some common sense and do whatever gets the job done, in my experience.
 
3

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,655
BestWestern said:
Ah, knackered buzzers - everybody's favourite defect! :)

Some HST Drivers, when they know the bell-buzzer is not working, will observe from the cab door and wait for the Guard's green flag, meaning the platform staff don't need to light up the RA. You'll then usually get a tone on the horn as an acknowledgement of the Right Away. The proper way of doing things is to take the first tip and lock the doors as normal, then when you get the second tip board the train, shut your door and hang your flag/lamp out of the window. Dispatchers then light up the RA for the Driver to see.

This is one of those situations where there a number of ways, some more official than others, of getting the job done. It obviously isn't helped by the fact that every TOC seems to want to do it differently! On multiple units, a common way around the Driver/Guard buzzer failing is to simply return to the rear cab and give 'two' on the cab-to-cab telephone (this has a 'call' button which emits a 'beep' different to the buzzer). Another not-quite-Rulebook method is to dispatch from the front, shut the doors and give a firm 'bang bang' on the bulkhead, this also ensures your Driver is awake! On a 150/1 (swing doors, droplight windows), I've dispatched from the front with heads out of windows and simply shouted "Right away". So long as the Driver gets the message clearly, and you have a way of stopping the train if you need to, you tend to use some common sense and do whatever gets the job done, in my experience.
Click to expand...

:lol:
 
B

Bedpan

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
1,287
Location
Harpenden
In the good old days the guard would stand on the platform and wave a green flag. With or without the message being relayed by platform staff. The driver would then start the train, and the guard would then get back on, as the train was starting to draw out. My memory is of this happening at virtually every station, don't recall there3 being any accidents that I ever heard of, although there were occasionally instances of guards being left behind.
 
A

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
HLE 13 said:
At Stevenage, East Coast trains are dispatched as usual BUT the driver actually has to stand on the platform and look back to where the guard is in order to see the green given by the guard when the bell buzzer is not working.

Station staff cannot give RA to driver as front cab is a good 2 or three coaches ahead of the RA indicator.
Click to expand...

Generally east coast won't use the RA at all. Even at kings cross where they can see the RA its not used and the guard rings the bells instead.

Down the road at euston though virgin do use the RA indicators.

On southern the RA indicators are never used on non DOO trains-the guard always rings the bells.

It's more company policy than anything.
 
Monty

Monty

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2012
Messages
2,352
Yup, as A-driver says here down in southern land we (the guards) give the RA to the driver. Only place I can think of where SWT give the driver the RA from the platform is Basingstoke where a unit may go into the sidings without a guard.
 
A

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
Monty said:
Yup, as A-driver says here down in southern land we (the guards) give the RA to the driver. Only place I can think of where SWT give the driver the RA from the platform is Basingstoke where a unit may go into the sidings without a guard.
Click to expand...

Most companies are DOO for empty cars. East coast do that to and get the RA off the cross when empty.
 
W

Wikipedia

Member
Joined
4 Jan 2011
Messages
145
Bedpan said:
although there were occasionally instances of guards being left behind.
Click to expand...

I was talking to someone who used to drive in southern land and he said that on a curved platform where the guard couldn't see the whole train some would lean into the van and give 2 on the bell and then stay off for a few seconds to check the platform and some of them supposedly weren't quick enough on their feet and got left on the platform!!! Result he said was sitting at the next station then thinking this is taking a while, going to the back and finding the guards stuff but no guard!!
 
221129

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,520
Location
Sunny Scotland
With the Night Riviera Sleeper ther is no Driver-Guard buzzer so I have seen quards lean out of the window (The Norm) Or Stand on the Platform and give the Green Light on their Bardic and hop on as the train starts to roll.
 
tsr

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,400
Location
Between the parallel lines
A-driver said:
On southern the RA indicators are never used on non DOO trains-the guard always rings the bells.
Click to expand...

There have been occasions where guards have given the green light/flag from the middle/rear cab window or through the rapidly closing gap as the local set of doors is closing. I assume this would be due to a bell failure. (This relates to 377s.)
 
Last edited:
Starmill

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,359
Location
Bolton
Not anything to do with Southern, but I have an interesting anecdote from P13 at Manchester Piccadilly this evening.

2127 to Manchester Airport rolls in, at least 10 mins late. Train stops, doors released, OFF indicator lights, loading complete, TPE dispatcher blows whistle, guard bathes the platform in green light, slams door, "R" lights (not RA here...) train proceeds.

Following service, Northern also fast to Airport, arrives, doors released, OFF lights, takes longer than usual to unload, guard chatting with colleague on the platform. Dispatcher shines white light and blows whistle, guard closes doors, stays on platform continuing to talk! Dispatcher shines white light and blows whistle thrice more. Local door still open. Train was 6/7 late, holding two more (including mine!) behind it. I was *this close* to shouting to him. As it happened the dispatcher walked down to the guard at a normal pace, the guard by this time staring at him. He then says something along the lines of "I have JUST given it to you!!" and walks slowly back to turn the key.
 
A

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
There have been occasions on the southern on the Horsham trains which are DOO as far as dorking then conducted south of dorking where drivers have forgotten they are no longer DOO and used the in cab monitors to try and close the doors nearly leaving the guard behind!
 
A

AlexS

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
2,886
Location
Just outside the Black Country
My station has RA indicators fitting but they were installed for operational flexibility for loco hauled trains rather than for general use and as such are very rarely actually used.

All platforms are Bi Directional and RA indicators are only fitted to signals where the driver is sat on the opposite side to the platform, so you can give the RA without the driver having to stand on the platform or lean out of the window on a loco hauled train.

As a result 50% of the signals don't have an RA indicator so it's not used in day to day terms, only occurring when a train goes empty stock without a guard and it's on the right platform in the right direction, where the platform staff are in full control of the departure. Generally speaking even then most will just use a green flag or green light.
 
sarahj

sarahj

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2012
Messages
1,897
Location
Brighton
A few moons ago I had a 442 at Gatwick, platform 6, down fast loop. This unit comes in, and it waits for two fast trains to pass in plat 5. I'm standing waiting for the signal to turn to off. Platform guy gives me a signal to close doors. I'm not moving. P guys tries again. To give him a hint I cross my arms. P guy gets agitated and tries to push the CD button that is used for DOO services. Just as he is doing this a fast train zooms by in plat 5. Not long after we get an off indication and I get a rather sheepish light from the platform guy,I shut up shop and of we go.

Funny thing is, never saw them again.
 
3

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,655
sarahj said:
A few moons ago I had a 442 at Gatwick, platform 6, down fast loop. This unit comes in, and it waits for two fast trains to pass in plat 5. I'm standing waiting for the signal to turn to off. Platform guy gives me a signal to close doors. I'm not moving. P guys tries again. To give him a hint I cross my arms. P guy gets agitated and tries to push the CD button that is used for DOO services. Just as he is doing this a fast train zooms by in plat 5. Not long after we get an off indication and I get a rather sheepish light from the platform guy,I shut up shop and of we go.

Funny thing is, never saw them again.
Click to expand...

isn't it allowed to close doors before the off indicator is given? the platform staff would still wait for the off indicator to give the RA
 
A

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
ml said:
isn't it allowed to close doors before the off indicator is given? the platform staff would still wait for the off indicator to give the RA
Click to expand...

No. Doors shouldn't be closed on a red light. For a start what would the point be? Sit there with the doors closed?

If there is an exception to this rule then I havnt come across it but I don't know anywhere were the doors can be closed on a red signal (except for emptying a train out before departing as empties).
 
BestWestern

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
A-driver said:
No. Doors shouldn't be closed on a red light. For a start what would the point be? Sit there with the doors closed?

If there is an exception to this rule then I havnt come across it but I don't know anywhere were the doors can be closed on a red signal (except for emptying a train out before departing as empties).
Click to expand...

In very cold weather, on stock not fitted with timed self-closing doors, I believe it is permitted to close and then re-release, in order to prevent doors remaining open needlessly. Also a good idea if you have a rammed train and crowds are still attempting to board whilst you await the road. I'll also do it at times if the signal is imminent, obviously with the dispatcher's agreement if the platform is manned.
 
T

TDK

Established Member
Joined
19 Apr 2008
Messages
4,155
Location
Crewe
ml said:
isn't it allowed to close doors before the off indicator is given? the platform staff would still wait for the off indicator to give the RA
Click to expand...

You cannot give the RA on a red signal as it is interlocked. Generally speaking platform staff shoulf not give any close door signals whilst the starting signal is at danger and if they do then the guard should not close the doors. This is the first cog in the many that could cause a SASSPAD.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top