Easy perhaps but, as the saying goes, 'only a fool knows everything'. As has been pointed out, claiming to 'know' something without any proof is not going to go down well in court.
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Open period tickets and lack of trust
- Thread starter RJ
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Easy perhaps but, as the saying goes, 'only a fool knows everything'. As has been pointed out, claiming to 'know' something without any proof is not going to go down well in court.
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ANorthernGuard
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Why dont you just hang them as well, or send them to prison for a looong time. Slight over reaction yes the staff were unprofessional and in some serious need of training but just a slight over reaction from you there Michael!
Yes, staff should be absolutely certain of their facts before relying on what they think they know is correct. In fact, this goes for any job. Even when I am 100% sure of the rules in my (non railway) role, I will still check up, if only so I can quote the relevant sections!
blacknight
Member
Might be the original cross marking of ticket thats caused the problem for if its diagonal cross thats been used to mark your ticket, as its a way of indicating a ticket is nolonger valid for travel & why gateline staff believed it to be a used ticket.
I have had a number of tickets marked with a diagonal cross by a checker well before the end of the journey. In one case, I was subsequently told the ticket was not valid for travel because of this. I suggested to the second guard that he might like to contact his colleague who had marked the ticket thus on the previous train. Whether he did I rather doubt, but he did not return to bother me again.
Urban Gateline
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I too agree that the benefit of doubt should be given in RJ's circumstance, as there seems to be no proof that RJ had already wholly used the ticket.
However I can admit that I don't trust users of Open period tickets, I encourage passengers to put them through the barriers in order to "mark" the ticket as having passed through the station. If the magnetic strip of the ticket doesn't work the barriers or a passenger refuses to put it through then I will write the date and station code on it with my Black "Sharpie" Permanent Marker
However I can admit that I don't trust users of Open period tickets, I encourage passengers to put them through the barriers in order to "mark" the ticket as having passed through the station. If the magnetic strip of the ticket doesn't work the barriers or a passenger refuses to put it through then I will write the date and station code on it with my Black "Sharpie" Permanent Marker
Is that official? If so, presumably it is only done when a passenger has passed through the penultimate station on their journey? (e.g. on a London-York ticket, it could be done immediately on departure from London Kings X on a non-stop train, but if the train called intermediately at Doncaster, it would not be done until after Doncaster?)
RJ
Established Member
The train on which it was marked went nowhere near either the origin, or the destination shown on the ticket. If it is official notation, it was certainly used in an inappropriate context. I wasn't aware that it was an official endorsement. Other staff have written NOT VALID on tickets I use.
I have read the suggestions about asking guards to endorse the ticket with the date and station travelled between on their train and criticism posted elsewhere for me not getting the first guard who marked the ticket to do this. Personally I think this is OTT. It's a situation in which I cannot win - all that's required is for some people to excise a bit of common sense when checking tickets. The RPOs didn't wish to deal with any potential consequences of their actions which is why she purposely declined to also endorse the ticket with her ID and her colleague refused to provide his name, despite it being company policy to wear a name badge and display it correctly.
Without fail, I'd always endorse the ticket with my ID, TOC and station of work if I anticipated that as a direct consequence of advice I had provided (perhaps a split ticket) or other endorsement, there may have been potential for a dispute later on in the passenger's journey. That way, the member of staff checking it could be confident that the passenger was so advised by another railwayman and take up any dispute internally.
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blacknight
Member
Yes I was taught that at turn of the century from time when outward portion of open ticket was also valid for 30 days, there was a chance that the ticket could be either reused or refund claimed on an "unused" ticket.
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If you know your are going to be having a break of journey is it really OTT for ticket to be endorsed as such either by guard or gateline staff? Save a shed load of hassle & missed trains after all rail staff are not issued with crystal balls to separate guilty from the innocent
.Whenever I've said I will be breaking my journey, the ticket was marked in the normal way. So I no longer bother. I've never heard of a requirement to make such a request; where is it documented?If you know your are going to be having a break of journey is it really OTT for ticket to be endorsed as such either by guard or gateline staff? Save a shed load of hassle & missed trains after all rail staff are not issued with crystal balls to separate guilty from the innocent
RJ
Established Member
If you know your are going to be having a break of journey is it really OTT for ticket to be endorsed as such either by guard or gateline staff? Save a shed load of hassle & missed trains after all rail staff are not issued with crystal balls to separate guilty from the innocent
I've never heard of anyone doing this before. Surely it would cause headaches if staff had to do this with everyone holding an open ticket for the sake of a negligible minority of staff who have a common sense failure!
In this situation it still would not have helped, because another excuse give for the refusal was that it was the third week of the ticket's validity. They were adamant that I can't possibly have spent all of my time in London, which suggests they also believed that a journey has to be completed in one go with no break.
blacknight
Member
Would only apply to those with open tickets intending to have BOJ at xxx on date **/**
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I too agree that the benefit of doubt should be given in RJ's circumstance, as there seems to be no proof that RJ had already wholly used the ticket.
However I can admit that I don't trust users of Open period tickets, I encourage passengers to put them through the barriers in order to "mark" the ticket as having passed through the station. If the magnetic strip of the ticket doesn't work the barriers or a passenger refuses to put it through then I will write the date and station code on it with my Black "Sharpie" Permanent Marker
There's one who marks tickets of passengers who intend to have a BOJ
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Another post from member who marks tickets of passengers who are taking a BOJ
None of this endorsing the ticket malarkey matters a jot if staff are later using their "judgment". If tickets can be endorsed uniformly and indisputably, that's a different issue.
On-platform ticket validators might be good for this and other issues, but then we'd probably be awash with moaning about how unfair they are to people who "forgot" to validate (or "didn't know they had to"). :roll:
On-platform ticket validators might be good for this and other issues, but then we'd probably be awash with moaning about how unfair they are to people who "forgot" to validate (or "didn't know they had to"). :roll:
How many validators are required on a rammed 12-car FCC train at 7am?
The validators are on (or at the entrance to/exit from) the platform, not the train. Basically it is the same as using Oyster, which seems to cope well enough with rammed 12-car trains.
bb21
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Yup. I went into auto-mode and linked it with someone else's idea of having validators on-train. Oops.
RJ
Established Member
Sounds like it would cause more problems than it would solve. Instead of just having a nondescript mark, I'd have a nondescript mark plus an endorsement on the ticket. How would the barrier staff know that the ticket wasn't endorsed on one train and the mark made on another?
Let's face it - there is no standard notation and in ticket inspection, there is always an element of trust involved. It would be far easier to encourage the use of common sense in staff than it would to introduce such a system that an entire generation of staff would have to get to grips with.
bb21
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The railway companies probably accept that some people will be able to get away with reusing tickets, simply because there are so many variables involved and there is no known cost-effective revenue protection method that is efficient and more or less foolproof.
blacknight
Member
Every possibility that a ticket could be checked onboard & then endorsed by gateline staff for BOJ, at least when your journey is resumed gateline staff would know portion of journey had been made.
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If railways were run on a trust basis there would be no need for ticket checks to be carried out as all passengers would have correct ticket for their journey
Trusting that a valid ticket is valid is not quite the same thing as not having ticket checksIf railways were run on a trust basis there would be no need for ticket checks to be carried out as all passengers would have correct ticket for their journey
blacknight
Member
Would that be the same trust shown by TOC's by reducing the period Out portion of Open ticket was valid for from 30 days to 5 days.
Theoretically, one option would be for a ziffa to also mark the pair of callng points between the 'grip' has occurred.
However, the stock answer for all enhancements to ticketing issues comes into play: smartcards are coming and will fix all issues!
Yep, by requiring the return journey to be completed within 24 hours of starting it!
(Just guessing - it might not be that generous
)On topic - it is a tricky one as it is obviously hard to distinguish the genuine from the bogus. Just the same as with someone re-using the RTN ticket for multiple journeys - as long as it's not gripped or put through a barrier, it's impossible to tell whether it's been re-used (apart from surveilling the passenger...). Personally I've not had a problem although I do worry slightly when a guard writes the date large across my ticket when I know I'll be breaking my journey for a while. I also tend to have (legitimately) unused return portions from some weeks ago for London-Reading which could look suspicious, though I've not had any quibble yet.
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I have had a ticket checked early in the journey with a biro cross put on my ticket, asked the TM to write that I will be breaking my journey, but been refused and told to get it done at the BOJ station and then had the staff at the station refuse because 'it's not allowed' and 'it's not something we do'.
Of course resuming my journey the following day causes problems at the gateline and with the TM on the train.
RJ
Established Member
I question the judgement of anyone who thought it was a good idea to introduce tickets with a month's validity in both directions in the first place. Many "normal" people who don't have fare evasion on the brain probably would re-use an open ticket if it hadn't been stamped.
This thread has made me think a bit more about open tickets, so now I ask, are you continuing to your destination on this train today? before I decide what to mark on the ticket. But what I'm still seeing is tickets from places like Bristol to Eastbourne and I'm marking the return portion south of croydon, yet eg, FGW has not marked or stamped anything before hand.
In the main, one of the chief reasons for the huge increase in revenue staff by BR back in the mid 1980s, the introduction of many more RPIs to the old NSE business sector, was to combat widespread abuse of the old 'standard' return, which was valid for three months at the time.
It was always good for a smile when the outward half of an APTIS ticket that was 8 or 10 weeks old was presented for travel and you asked the holder 'Can I see your return half please sir?'
Being presented with a return half for the same journey, but with an entirely different ticket number and issue date lead to a bit more scrutiny and a few important questions, and almost always getting the same answer
'I didn't use that one, I got the ticket but didn't go because I got a phone call, or had to....(please enter excuse as appropriate)...'
The next question was always the same 'OK sir, then where is the return portion of this ticket please?' Inevitably the answer would be 'I've already used that one'
"Ah, so you came back, but didn't actually go then?"
Despite all the messing about with ticket validities and types in the intervening 30 years, it seems that in some areas, little has changed.
It was always good for a smile when the outward half of an APTIS ticket that was 8 or 10 weeks old was presented for travel and you asked the holder 'Can I see your return half please sir?'
Being presented with a return half for the same journey, but with an entirely different ticket number and issue date lead to a bit more scrutiny and a few important questions, and almost always getting the same answer
'I didn't use that one, I got the ticket but didn't go because I got a phone call, or had to....(please enter excuse as appropriate)...'
The next question was always the same 'OK sir, then where is the return portion of this ticket please?' Inevitably the answer would be 'I've already used that one'
"Ah, so you came back, but didn't actually go then?"
Despite all the messing about with ticket validities and types in the intervening 30 years, it seems that in some areas, little has changed.
Haywain
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Like the gentleman who, when buying a First Open Return, commented to the ticket seller that, "These are really good value, I get to use them four or five times each way."
He was taking a relatively short Inter City journey, and was the founder of a well known high street fast food chain!
I currently have in my wallet the return part of a Manchester-Euston off-peak return. It wasn't checked at either Euston or Manchester, nor was it checked on the train let alone stamped or written on in any way. I would have thought that a two-hour journey would provide ample time for a complete ticket check so there could be a few thousand pounds lost if everyone with such a ticket decided to reuse it.
Fortunately I hate travelling to London and do so as little as possible so I'm not tempted.
Fortunately I hate travelling to London and do so as little as possible so I'm not tempted.
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