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Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

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LNW-GW Joint

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2018 in the target for overall TP electrification.
I think the Stalybridge substation will be needed from 2016 to support wiring from Victoria/Guide Bridge.
I don't know if it has a part to play in the wiring west of Victoria.
There is some big kit going in at Ordsall Lane just now, which I imagine is to feed the four routes converging there and on to Victoria for NW Phase 1/2.
 

507 001

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Some major earthworks going on around huyton quarry, looks like a new access road being built??
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Some major earthworks going on around huyton quarry, looks like a new access road being built??

Might it be for the eastern end of the 3/4-track section now being built?
I've seen a track diagram but can't relate it to the real world.
Balfour Beatty must also be about to open an access point for Phase 2 construction somewhere along this stretch.
 

507 001

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Might it be for the eastern end of the 3/4-track section now being built?
I've seen a track diagram but can't relate it to the real world.
Balfour Beatty must also be about to open an access point for Phase 2 construction somewhere along this stretch.

Could be, but it seems a bit far from the junction. Its where the Railway runs alongside Seel Road, just before the underbridge under St Johns road (heading Eastbound).
 

175001

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Thought you would like to see shots I took between Broad Green and Huyton yesterday, of the clearance thats taking place to four-track the area. I passed Whiston-Huyton in darkness this morning and much of the same is taking place.

8509437669_6cc6e69761_z.jpg


8509436933_8f114412ba_z.jpg


8509436073_45fe8682b1_z.jpg


A lot going on around Roby yesterday.
 

D365

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Latest rumours are 2020 is the deadline for the withdrawal of Pacers due to the fact that the toilet is too small for wheelchairs.

There are only two ways around it -

1) Make the Toilet larger but this will mean even less seats on an already small train! So very impractical.

2) Keep Pacers on journeys that are a maximum of 30 minutes in length. This is the maximum legal requirement of a train journey without a Toilet. This would be impractical as there are not many journeys that are a maximum of half an hour, many Pacer journeys are in fact an hour and a half.

It's not rumour, that's the deadline for all DDA modifications to have been made to rolling stock. This isn't just toilets; the work that needs to be done to update a Pacer is economically unviable. As has been said, there are many regular train services of more than 30m duration without an onboard toilet.
 

HSTEd

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It's not rumour, that's the deadline for all DDA modifications to have been made to rolling stock. This isn't just toilets; the work that needs to be done to update a Pacer is economically unviable. As has been said, there are many regular train services of more than 30m duration without an onboard toilet.

The Secretary of State can simply exempt the Pacers.
This is what will happen.
 

terryc

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There's a lot of activity going on between Lowton & Golborne junctions. As this is already under wires, does anyone know what it's all about? Doubling of the latter, perhaps?
 

Bevan Price

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Does anyone have any idea what service frequency pattern is envisaged for the stopper services out of Lime Street once the Northern Hub and elecvtification are completed? I know there'll be more faster services but I hear little about the stoppers apart from them being earmarked for the Class 319s eventually.

Nothing 100% confirmed, but understood to include (per hour)
2 TPE services via Chat Moss route.
2 locals, Liverpool - Manchester Vic and/or Stalybridge.
2 locals, Liverpool - Wigan North Western.
1 or 2 Liverpool - Preston and/or Blackpool (semi-fast).

I understand that the Lime St. - Warrington Bank Quay service may disappear, and it has been suggested that the Lime St. - Manchester Airport service could be going via Warrington Central, replacing the TPE fast service by that route.

However, everything could change before it is all completed....
 

DJH1971

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Nothing 100% confirmed, but understood to include (per hour)
2 TPE services via Chat Moss route.
2 locals, Liverpool - Manchester Vic and/or Stalybridge.
2 locals, Liverpool - Wigan North Western.
1 or 2 Liverpool - Preston and/or Blackpool (semi-fast).

I understand that the Lime St. - Warrington Bank Quay service may disappear, and it has been suggested that the Lime St. - Manchester Airport service could be going via Warrington Central, replacing the TPE fast service by that route.

However, everything could change before it is all completed....

It would be bad to get the rid of the Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay (via Earlestown) as public transport between St Helens and Warrington is truly woeful to say the least. :|
 

Swirlz

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It would be bad to get the rid of the Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay (via Earlestown) as public transport between St Helens and Warrington is truly woeful to say the least. :|

There is a bus every 30 minutes, with a journey time of 35 minutes, running from 6am to 6pm Monday to Saturday.
http://www.arrivabus.co.uk/uploadedfiles/Services/North_West/NWSH329_300510_160510.pdf

I think that is a pretty good service between the two, especially as I would imagine Arriva would use their new fleet of buses like everywhere else in Merseyside.

Evenings and Sundays are obviously problematic, but Arriva must have considered that no sufficient customers exist!

It would be my preference for the Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay services to be extended to Chester or Ellesmere Port, maybe giving 2 trains per hour from Warrington to Chester.
 

Bevan Price

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There is a bus every 30 minutes, with a journey time of 35 minutes, running from 6am to 6pm Monday to Saturday.
http://www.arrivabus.co.uk/uploadedfiles/Services/North_West/NWSH329_300510_160510.pdf

I think that is a pretty good service between the two, especially as I would imagine Arriva would use their new fleet of buses like everywhere else in Merseyside.

Evenings and Sundays are obviously problematic, but Arriva must have considered that no sufficient customers exist!

It would be my preference for the Liverpool-Warrington Bank Quay services to be extended to Chester or Ellesmere Port, maybe giving 2 trains per hour from Warrington to Chester.

There have been suggestions that Manchester - Warrington - Chester may eventually become 2 trains per hour.

As for the Lime St. - Warrington Bank Quay service, most of the passengers seem to be travelling between Earlestown & Warrington; only a few use it from other stations. Indeed, many journeys carry less than 10 passengers when arriving at, or departing from Warrington.
 

Gareth

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Nothing 100% confirmed, but understood to include (per hour)
2 TPE services via Chat Moss route.
2 locals, Liverpool - Manchester Vic and/or Stalybridge.
2 locals, Liverpool - Wigan North Western.
1 or 2 Liverpool - Preston and/or Blackpool (semi-fast).

I understand that the Lime St. - Warrington Bank Quay service may disappear, and it has been suggested that the Lime St. - Manchester Airport service could be going via Warrington Central, replacing the TPE fast service by that route.

However, everything could change before it is all completed....

It's a shame the stopper services won't be increased. Compared to Merseyrail, the commuter rail offer for East Liverpool and neighbouring towns is relatively poor, frequency-wise.
 

HSTEd

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Wouldn't the approval have to come from Europe as these are European regulations?

Nope, since the European Regulations themselves have no force on this matter.
The requirement derives from teh appropriate Westminster Legislation.
However the EU might take the British Government to court if they are seen to flout the regulations in too obvious a manner.

A couple hundred vehicles is unlikely to be worth the trouble.
 

507 001

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Nothing 100% confirmed, but understood to include (per hour)
2 TPE services via Chat Moss route.
2 locals, Liverpool - Manchester Vic and/or Stalybridge.
2 locals, Liverpool - Wigan North Western.
1 or 2 Liverpool - Preston and/or Blackpool (semi-fast).

I understand that the Lime St. - Warrington Bank Quay service may disappear, and it has been suggested that the Lime St. - Manchester Airport service could be going via Warrington Central, replacing the TPE fast service by that route.

However, everything could change before it is all completed....

I was always under the impression that the Northern Hub improvements meant an increase to 4 TPH towards Manchester at least?

The service pattern you describe there, with the exception of the TPE services, is pretty much exactly what we already have, It does seem to be rather supid to have all these capacity improvements and not use them!

I'd like to see;

2x TPE
4x Locals Liverpool-Manc
2x Locals Liverpool-Wigan
2x Blackpool Semi-fasts

Losing the LIV-MIA services would be no big loss as they don't stop anywhere useful anymore.

2x Blackpool semisfasts to make full use of the new layout at Huyton, and also because these are a popular and quick way of getting into Liverpool and St Helens from Huyton (bit biased I know!)

On Sundays you could then knock the service down to todays service pattern, probably less the Blackpool Semi-Fasts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Secretary of State can simply exempt the Pacers.
This is what will happen.

Not impossible, a number of Ffestiniog railway carriages are exempt from the legislation till 2026. An act of parliament was required mind.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There's a lot of activity going on between Lowton & Golborne junctions. As this is already under wires, does anyone know what it's all about? Doubling of the latter, perhaps?

Network Rail has a press item from February 4 about improvements at Lancaster which have just started: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...and-Fleetwood-MP-sees-improvements-first-hand
and attached to it is a list of 13 locations on the north-west WCML which are being improved - including Golborne and Lowton.
However, it doesn't detail what works are involved.
Those at Lancaster are quite significant, basically making the two main platforms accessible from both directions.

The full list from the NR press item is:
Hartford, Oxenholme, Carnforth, Carnforth Steam Town,
Golborne, Lowton, Lancaster South, Wigan Springs Branch,
Balshaw Lane, Harrison Sidings, Morecambe, Euxton,
Penrith, Bamfurlong
 

Wavertreelad

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With Chat Moss route electrified, surely the idea must be to maximise the number of services using electric traction on the route. Moving the Lime Street /Manchester Airport services via the Cheshire Lines route using 150/156traction would probably seem to defeat the object if the service could use electric transaction throughout via Manchester.

My thoughts would be electrify the Cheshire Lines route with the junction east and west bound to the West Coast mainline that would serve on the Liverpool side as the HS2 route to Liverpool as it more or less dead straight to Liverpool South Park Way [[stn]LPY[/stn]].

Although it may not be possible to run at full HS2 line speeds it would almost be certainly quicker than the proposed alternative. It would allow HS2 trains running from London to Liverpool which supposedly carrying less bums on seats than Manchester services to run non stop to Warrington which is already the centre of the motorway network in the North West, instead of Crewe then on to [stn]LPY[/stn] before running in to Lime Street.

The [stn]LPY[/stn] stop would allow easier connection to Mersey Rail services which by then would have been upgraded anyway, and quick and easy transfer to John Lennon Airport. As a result three or four major airports would be linked by rail and a fully joined up transport system would be created.
 

DJH1971

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With Chat Moss route electrified, surely the idea must be to maximise the number of services using electric traction on the route. Moving the Lime Street /Manchester Airport services via the Cheshire Lines route using 150/156traction would probably seem to defeat the object if the service could use electric transaction throughout via Manchester.

My thoughts would be electrify the Cheshire Lines route with the junction east and west bound to the West Coast mainline that would serve on the Liverpool side as the HS2 route to Liverpool as it more or less dead straight to Liverpool South Park Way [[stn]LPY[/stn]].

Although it may not be possible to run at full HS2 line speeds it would almost be certainly quicker than the proposed alternative. It would allow HS2 trains running from London to Liverpool which supposedly carrying less bums on seats than Manchester services to run non stop to Warrington which is already the centre of the motorway network in the North West, instead of Crewe then on to [stn]LPY[/stn] before running in to Lime Street.

The [stn]LPY[/stn] stop would allow easier connection to Mersey Rail services which by then would have been upgraded anyway, and quick and easy transfer to John Lennon Airport. As a result three or four major airports would be linked by rail and a fully joined up transport system would be created.

I have to admit, I don't understand why the Cheshire Line (Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central) isn't being wired as TPE services from Liverpool to North East use this route and there are plans to electrify between Manchester to Leeds.

Unless they will eventually use the Chat Moss line then.
 

Bevan Price

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I was always under the impression that the Northern Hub improvements meant an increase to 4 TPH towards Manchester at least?

The service pattern you describe there, with the exception of the TPE services, is pretty much exactly what we already have, It does seem to be rather supid to have all these capacity improvements and not use them!

I'd like to see;

2x TPE
4x Locals Liverpool-Manc
2x Locals Liverpool-Wigan
2x Blackpool Semi-fasts

Losing the LIV-MIA services would be no big loss as they don't stop anywhere useful anymore.

2x Blackpool semisfasts to make full use of the new layout at Huyton, and also because these are a popular and quick way of getting into Liverpool and St Helens from Huyton (bit biased I know!)

On Sundays you could then knock the service down to todays service pattern, probably less the Blackpool Semi-Fasts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not impossible, a number of Ffestiniog railway carriages are exempt from the legislation till 2026. An act of parliament was required mind.


1. Diverting the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service would deprive St. Helens Junction of its only fast service to Manchester.

I understand that one TPE service is expected to be non-stop between Liverpool & Manchester, whilst the second service might call only at Newton Le Willows (which would not be very helpful, at it only has a tiny car park)

2. I don't think they could find paths for 4 stopping trains per hour over Chat Moss, in addition to 2 TPE services and some Manchester Airport / Scotland services and the Manchester - Chester / N. Wales services.

3. I think there may well be 2 semi-fasts between Liverpool, Wigan & Preston, but I suspect only one per hour will serve Blackpool - in some hours, the second path may eventually be used for a few Liverpool - Scotland services.

4. Increased passenger capacity will come from 2 car dmus being replaced by 4 car Class 319 emus (& possibly some 317s for a while, if insufficient 319s are available when electrification is complete)
 
Last edited:

DJH1971

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1. Diverting the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service would deprive St. Helens Junction of its only fast service to Manchester.

I understand that one TPE service is expected to be non-stop between Liverpool & Manchester, whilst the second service might call only at Newton Le Willows (which would not be very helpful, at it only has a tiny car park)

Whilst St Helens Junction has a much bigger car park!
 

Bevan Price

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Whilst St Helens Junction has a much bigger car park!

Even that is too small, it is often full & overflowing by 08:30 on Mondays to Fridays.

Earlestown also has a small station car park, but there are other free car parks in the town centre.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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1. Diverting the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service would deprive St. Helens Junction of its only fast service to Manchester.

I understand that one TPE service is expected to be non-stop between Liverpool & Manchester, whilst the second service might call only at Newton Le Willows (which would not be very helpful, at it only has a tiny car park)

2. I don't think they could find paths for 4 stopping trains per hour over Chat Moss, in addition to 2 TPE services and some Manchester Airport / Scotland services and the Manchester - Chester / N. Wales services.

3. I think there may well be 2 semi-fasts between Liverpool, Wigan & Preston, but I suspect only one per hour will serve Blackpool - in some hours, the second path may eventually be used for a few Liverpool - Scotland services.

4. Increased passenger capacity will come from 2 car dmus being replaced by 4 car Class 319 emus (& possibly some 317s for a while, if insufficient 319s are available when electrification is complete)

The idea of 4x4-car stoppers via Chat Moss is insane.
Today's 1x2-car (2 as far as Earlestown with the WBQ service) is not busy outside the peak.
They might do 2x4car or divert the WBQ to Manchester.
The changes at Roby/Huyton are designed to let fasts overtake there.

According to the TP draft timetable the second TPE service will be non-stop via Chat Moss to Victoria.
The existing one will stay on the CLC route until the TP electrification/Northern Hub is ready, and then probably run to Sheffield.

There must surely be a Chat Moss-Piccadilly service, even if it is not the airport train.

It would be a great shame if the CLC route does not follow on from the rest of the NW electrification.
The 2 CLC DMU stoppers are very slow and block up the route for anything new.

My guess is there will be few new Northern services until the main class 319 cascade happens, which might not be before the whole NW scheme is complete.
 

D365

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Remember that the Southern 116+140 order is intended to release Thameslink 319s for refurbishment and reuse elsewhere.
 

WatcherZero

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I think people are misunderstanding the system a bit when they expect that improved services would already be decided.

Its Network Rails job to facilitate the requirements of the tocs for rolling stock clearance and platform length. Its also their job to look at the rail network and identify 'gaps' or places where demand is/will outstrip capacity or where cost/efficency/speed improvements can be made. However its the Tocs themselves which must propose new or amended services to ORR to take advantage of improvements (or the Government specify them as part of the franchising process).

So while NR can say they are performing upgrading a line for longer trains or more frequent services that would have a positive business case at points A and B its up to tocs to say to ORR 'I propose to use that extra capacity to do a service between A and Y or X to B via Y'
 

WatcherZero

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Network Rail has a press item from February 4 about improvements at Lancaster which have just started: http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...and-Fleetwood-MP-sees-improvements-first-hand
and attached to it is a list of 13 locations on the north-west WCML which are being improved - including Golborne and Lowton.
However, it doesn't detail what works are involved.
Those at Lancaster are quite significant, basically making the two main platforms accessible from both directions.

The full list from the NR press item is:
Hartford, Oxenholme, Carnforth, Carnforth Steam Town,
Golborne, Lowton, Lancaster South, Wigan Springs Branch,
Balshaw Lane, Harrison Sidings, Morecambe, Euxton,
Penrith, Bamfurlong

Seeing that list one of the things that springs to mind is the last WCML RUS flagged up several locations where there were 20mph freight speed limits, a couple of which appear above.
 

Gareth

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I don't think we should dismiss increasing the frequency of some if the stopper services at some point in the future. Certainly for the Liverpool area, most Merseyrail branches have 4tph and if the 'City Line' was also a proper Merseyrail line, then I don't see how it would be different. I would suspect that the low frequency at many of the stations, particularly at night, puts people off and so they choose buses instead. Poor quality rolling stock that is crowded in the peak time probably doesn't help either. Once electrification comes, it may well be that more people are attracted to the services. Of course, one big difference between these stoppers and Merseyrail is that fast trains pick up passengers at the busier stations, so I appreciate it's not exactly the same.
 
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