First time on Class 185

43167 · 17 Feb 2013

185 said:
Interesting Quote....
Q&A session, 2nd floor North Block, Piccadilly Station, Dec 2003.

Q -
"Will 3 cars be enough? The other unsuccessful bidder was offering four cars"

Vernon Barker, TPE MD
"No these will be more than enough for the route"

Quite how he bidded for 3cars, and then blamed the DfT for the mess is beyond me.

That might have been before they got Manchester-Scotland forced upon them. 3 cars in pairs would probably have been enough for the traditional TPE routes.

If any of the the 171's ever get displaced should the Uckfield line ever get electrified, TPE would be a good home for them. then the 170's can stick to the Hulls and the 171's go on the Cleethorpes.

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RJ · 17 Feb 2013

I'm quite fond of the 185s. The engines sound fantastic, particularly when they change gears at full revs. Seeing as I don't live anywhere near that neck of the woods, I only travel on them at off peak times so not well placed to comment on the overcrowding issues.

61653 HTAFC · 17 Feb 2013

43167 said:
If any of the the 171's ever get displaced should the Uckfield line ever get electrified, TPE would be a good home for them. then the 170's can stick to the Hulls and the 171's go on the Cleethorpes.

Tbh I'm surprised TPEs 170s haven't been fitted with Dellners and reclassified as 171s, as presumably this would allow them to work in multiple with the 185s.

ainsworth74 · 17 Feb 2013

61653 HTAFC said:
Tbh I'm surprised TPEs 170s haven't been fitted with Dellners and reclassified as 171s, as presumably this would allow them to work in multiple with the 185s.

I think it would be a bit more complex than that as they'll have different computer software and I imagine it would need some clever scripting to get Siemens software to talk to Bombardier software. But it would have been logical to fit them with Dellners as it would make it possible then for 185s to rescue 170s (or I suppose 171s now) and vice versa. I guess one advantage of leaving them with BSI is that 170s can be rescued by EMT 158s and the whole plethora of Northern Rail DMUs.

As for an earlier suggestion of sending 171s to TPE when(if) Uckfield is electrified, unless something spectacular happens the TPE routes will be wired and have EMUs delivered long before that can happen. Meaning that TPE will have an oversupply of 185s enabling them to double up many remaining DMU services and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they'd been able to dump their 170s.

61653 HTAFC · 17 Feb 2013

ainsworth74 said:
I think it would be a bit more complex than that as they'll have different computer software and I imagine it would need some clever scripting to get Siemens software to talk to Bombardier software. But it would have been logical to fit them with Dellners as it would make it possible then for 185s to rescue 170s (or I suppose 171s now) and vice versa. I guess one advantage of leaving them with BSI is that 170s can be rescued by EMT 158s and the whole plethora of Northern Rail DMUs.

As for an earlier suggestion of sending 171s to TPE when(if) Uckfield is electrified, unless something spectacular happens the TPE routes will be wired and have EMUs delivered long before that can happen. Meaning that TPE will have an oversupply of 185s enabling them to double up many remaining DMU services and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they'd been able to dump their 170s.

I thought that might be an issue. Indeed 170s can be rescued by most other units they work alongside- though 185s can only be rescued by another 185.

I'd have thought TPE might still need the 170s to keep time on Hull services as the 185s are subject to speed restrictions- though isn't this due to the Selby bridge works that are being done this year. In any case I'll be sad to see the 170s go- if you manage to get a seat they're far more comfortable than the 185s, and have at least some power points in standard!

ainsworth74 · 17 Feb 2013

61653 HTAFC said:
I'd have thought TPE might still need the 170s to keep time on Hull services as the 185s are subject to speed restrictions

There are speed restrictions but 185s are perfectly capable of keeping time due to their outstanding acceleration compared with a 170. This post is by a TPE guard speaking on the issue. Also the problem is with the weakened ground due to mining not the swing bridge, you could fix it but it would be very expensive strengthening the line.

61653 HTAFC said:
and have at least some power points in standard!

185s have two power points at every table in standard class.

gimmea50anyday · 17 Feb 2013

Acceleration wise a 185 will out perform a 220 up to about 90 mph, as for a hst, a 185 will get from York to Northallerton at 100 quicker than a hst doing 125, purely down to superior acceleration.

Haydn1971 · 22 Feb 2013

On one again Sheffield to Doncaster - sat in the wheelchair compartment with just one other person - it's actually quite nice on here, engine sounds refined, nicely decorated, heating that doesn't deafen, window in the right place, carpets that aren't threadbare - I take back what I said earlier - yep, happy to trade my 150+153 morning combo... But perhaps needs a fourth carriage for my route.

ainsworth74 · 22 Feb 2013

Haydn1971 said:
But perhaps needs a fourth carriage for my route.

They need a fourth carriage on every route but the boat has sailed on that one.

RatMan · 24 Feb 2013

..So these are desiro units right? Is this about build / design being right or is it just there is not enough space?
(It's simply amazing that we used to run a railway where any train on a popular route used to be formed of at least 8 coaches - pre HST - & now run trains of less than 4 & we fool ourselves that we can get away with it!)

ainsworth74 · 24 Feb 2013

It's about them needing the fourth vehicle that was an option that the DfT decided not to take forward.

Haydn1971 · 24 Feb 2013

Hopefully come April 2014 the new Northern franchise might start placing orders for some new units - Especially if the ITA's start getting their way on improving services between the major city centres.

RatMan · 24 Feb 2013

You see your Cl.37 picture has got it about right - put a loco on the end of a few coaches (more passengers = more coaches) {sighs, sighs again..}
However, of we live in a modern world, so if 20 more Jo's / Joe's decide to take the train each morning nothing can be done until we ask some Whitehall mandarin if it would be possible to get some extra space in the next 10 years.
The Victorians would probably ask if we'd all gone nuts!

ainsworth74 · 24 Feb 2013

Whilst there might be a class 37 in my picture, my position on loco haulage remains unchanged, which is that it holds very few, if in fact any, advantages over multiple units.

Rhydgaled · 26 Feb 2013

Haydn1971 said:
The trolley service tickled me too... Just didn't seem appropriate on a commuter style train

It's called TransPennineEXPRESS, so the trolley service seems appropriate. It is the commuter-style outer-suburban rolling stock which is out of place.

ainsworth74 said:
But not commuter in their journey length. Newcastle to Manchester two and three quarter hours or Manchester to Edinburgh three hours and twenty minutes.

Exactly, it is a regional express franchise. Therefore it should have regional-express-style stock (158, 175 etc.), we just don't have nearly enough regional express stock in this country (Wales and Great Western are both in need of more 158s, and I'd guess other TOCs probably are too). Why did somebody have to order 170s (outer-suburban trains with sluggish express-train acceleration) for regional express work rather than doing the job properly and ordering something like 175s with 158-style end gangways or building LM-style 172s to replace Pacers and 150/1s?

Waverley125 said:
when TPE gets wired they really need replacing with a series of 344s-like the 444s down south, but with Pantographs.

Agreed, that's what they should have ordered already for the Manchester-Scotland services (rather than 350s, that or order more Pendos and give Manchester-Scotland to ICWC). An OHLE-powered train inspired by the 5-WES (Wessex Electric) or class 444 units, would probably also be useful on other routes.

3 standard trailers with extra luggage space, a standard buffet and a first class coach, with the potential for dual-working and 10 coach trains.

How much is first class used on TPE now? If not much then I'd suggest putting the buffet in the first class coach (with the buffet counter at the end nearest the standard class coaches, so standard class passengers don't need to walk through first class to reach it).

6Gman said:
In my experience they are packed from Leeds to Dewsbury; full + standing to Huddersfield; empty seats to Manchester.

3-car 185s were quite busy, including at the Manchester end, when I did a return to York to see the Skyfall IC225.

ainsworth74 · 26 Feb 2013

Rhydgaled said:
Therefore it should have regional-express-style stock (158, 175 etc.)

I think they're fine for the work they do. Just not long enough to deal with the passenger numbers (and a fourth vehicle would have broken the back of that problem in any case).

Rhydgaled said:
Agreed, that's what they should have ordered already for the Manchester-Scotland services (rather than 350s, that or order more Pendos and give Manchester-Scotland to ICWC).

The 350s are a short term measure until something more suitable can be procured as part of the wider TPE electrification.

Rhydgaled said:
An OHLE-powered train inspired by the 5-WES (Wessex Electric) or class 444 units, would probably also be useful on other routes.

A four or five car 444 (AC version) style train sounds perfect for all of TPEs routes, especially if you can get it up to 110mph.

Rhydgaled said:
How much is first class used on TPE now?

Off-peak it's normally very quiet, peak time it's very busy. I think the provision is about the right size currently.

Widnes Planner · 27 Feb 2013

To answer a couple of posts from earlier regarding Hull line speeds - 170s win down there because they can use sprinter differentials, while the heavy desiro-style 185s can't. However I understand that Network Rail are intending to do the trackwork required to bring all passenger stock up to the higher linespeed, so that will really help matters.

ainsworth74 · 27 Feb 2013

I quoted this earlier but I'll do so again, the following is from a TPE guard:

kwvr45 said:
There are no particular problems, other than that on the section of line east of Selby where there are differential (higher) speeds for sprinters, they can't run at the sprinter speeds - unlike the 170s. They are given the same times in the schedule as their superior acceleration compared to a 170 means that there is negligible time differences between the two classes.

If you look a timetable you'll note that there is no difference given for 185s or 170s on that route (the 1640 off Hull is always a 185 and the 1842 off Manchester Piccadilly is another one). Again, 185s are no slower over the route than 170s thanks to the poor acceleration of 170s and the really high acceleration of 185s.

I'd be interested in a source for Network Rail doing some track work to raise line speeds as I've not heard anything about it an I'd like to read up about it

lord rathmore · 28 Feb 2013

Took my first trip on one of these things Glasgow to Manchester short while ago. Consider them unsuitable for journeys of any length - on the WCML it bounced and swayed so much it spilled my coffee; far worse than a 170 would have done. Seating as others have posted is strangely lined up - only consolation was I had only partial view of the wind turbines where there used to be mountain views. Roll on electrification so the 185's can be shunted on to services more suitable.

ukrob · 28 Feb 2013

Widnes Planner said:
To answer a couple of posts from earlier regarding Hull line speeds - 170s win down there because they can use sprinter differentials, while the heavy desiro-style 185s can't. However I understand that Network Rail are intending to do the trackwork required to bring all passenger stock up to the higher linespeed, so that will really help matters.

Totally irrelevant as the 185's run to the same times due to much superior acceleration.

ukrob · 28 Feb 2013

lord rathmore said:
Took my first trip on one of these things Glasgow to Manchester short while ago. Consider them unsuitable for journeys of any length - on the WCML it bounced and swayed so much it spilled my coffee; far worse than a 170 would have done. Seating as others have posted is strangely lined up - only consolation was I had only partial view of the wind turbines where there used to be mountain views. Roll on electrification so the 185's can be shunted on to services more suitable.

Strangely lined up as in almost all seats have a window?

talltim · 28 Feb 2013

Well that is wierd for the WCML

corin paul · 1 Mar 2013

Cold in winter, and even the crews think this. And hard seats, after a hour on the things Cleethorpes to Manchester is a pain. The doors just let the warm air fall out with there position on the units.

http://railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=1364021821000

ainsworth74 · 1 Mar 2013

You see I've never noticed them being particularly cold (well, since they've fixed the AC at least) even in the middle of winter they seem to be the right temperature and doors opening doesn't seem to really make a difference beyond a few seconds of draft around your ankles. Then again I prefer it a bit cooler than most.

IanXC · 1 Mar 2013

ainsworth74 said:
I'd be interested in a source for Network Rail doing some track work to raise line speeds as I've not heard anything about it an I'd like to read up about it

I've previously read that Gilberdyke Junction is to be relaid to allow higher speeds, although I can't now find specific mention of it.

The Strategic business plan 2014-19 for LNE includes the following (as an unfunded project):

Network Rail said:
Ferriby to Gilberdyke journey time and capacity improvement There are three sets of outputs that could be improved; performance; journey time and capacity by reducing planning headways. In addition as the resignalling is planned to be a recontrol, customers would be able to make use of this route 24 hours a day.

ash39 · 1 Mar 2013

lord rathmore said:
Took my first trip on one of these things Glasgow to Manchester short while ago. Consider them unsuitable for journeys of any length - on the WCML it bounced and swayed so much it spilled my coffee; far worse than a 170 would have done. Seating as others have posted is strangely lined up - only consolation was I had only partial view of the wind turbines where there used to be mountain views. Roll on electrification so the 185's can be shunted on to services more suitable.

Roll on electrification when they are temporarily replaced by essentially the same train with a pantograph stuck on top, and then permenantly replaced by a train dating from the late 80's with a refurb!?

I know the lack of underfloor engine raises refinement but not exactly a step change. I think the 185's are decent for what they are, but if I was going from Glasgow to Manchester I'd probably rather go with Virgin and change somewhere if possible.

D365 · 1 Mar 2013

ash39 said:
Roll on electrification when they are temporarily replaced by essentially the same train with a pantograph stuck on top, and then permanently replaced by a train dating from the late 80's with a refurb!?

The 319s, heavily refurbished I am assured by Porterbrook, are intended for slower services. A larger TPE EMU order is planned for when northern electrification comes online. Glasgow-Manchester may be transferred to West Coast with Baby Pendos if these ever come together.

ash39 · 1 Mar 2013

I stand corrected. Not saying the 319's are bad trains anyway, just that class 185's are 25 years their junior and probably in most peoples eyes a better all-round unit.

D365 · 1 Mar 2013

Thameslink has kept them on their feet, the 319s should be able to unwind a little oop North

YorkshireBear · 1 Mar 2013

Rumours that 377s will head north for TPE services after a interior refurb to make them more suitable.

First time on Class 185

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