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The railway and budget 2013

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YorkshireBear

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So how are we expecting rail to come out today??

Think we will come out very well to be honest, with additional schemes possibly mentioned.


(Note this is intended to be a thread for when it gets announced also...)
 
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sheff'd victoria

sheff'd victoria

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Locally I would like to see extra tram routes inside Sheffield. since the tram is the most popular form of public transport.

Nationally it has to be more electrification.
 
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ainsworth74

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A note to all that this thread should only be used for discussing the railway related parts of today's budget. If you wish to discuss the wider aspects of it then this should be done in the General Discussion forum.
 
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charlee

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I would like to see Exeter and plymouth electrified, and possibly a new dawlish avoiding fast direct line between Exeter and plymouth.

However I am living in a dream world with those expectations :). I expect the south west will be shunned again.

Would not be surprised if rail is shunned this time around.
 
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IanXC

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YorkshireBear said:
So how are we expecting rail to come out today??

Think we will come out very well to be honest, with additional schemes possibly mentioned.


(Note this is intended to be a thread for when it gets announced also...)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure its going to be another great day for the Railway, but I think we could well see some small electrifications (eg GOBLIN, SHF-DON, SBY-HUL). I also think theres a good chance the New Stations Fund will be increased - as I recall its currently £20m, and if that were doubled most of the bids could be funded.
 
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YorkshireBear

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ainsworth74 said:
A note to all that this thread should only be used for discussing the railway related parts of today's budget. If you wish to discuss the wider aspects of it then this should be done in the General Discussion forum.
Click to expand...

Probably should have thought about that :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
IanXC said:
I'm not sure its going to be another great day for the Railway, but I think we could well see some small electrifications (eg GOBLIN, SHF-DON, SBY-HUL). I also think theres a good chance the New Stations Fund will be increased - as I recall its currently £20m, and if that were doubled most of the bids could be funded.
Click to expand...

If those three schemes get announced id consider it a very good day to be honest. I know they are obvious but having them committed allows better decisions to be made on any future rolling stock strategies and service provision now.
 
Mikey C

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The detail is always in the small print, the detailed statement issued after the speech. I would have thought that any rail related expenditure would have been announced in the speech though...
 
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YorkshireBear

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Mikey C said:
The detail is always in the small print, the detailed statement issued after the speech. I would have thought that any rail related expenditure would have been announced in the speech though...
Click to expand...

How long is that usually?
 
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JamesRowden

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jcollins said:
Looks like it was just confirmation of funding and schedules for schemes already announced.
Click to expand...

The BBC put is as:

BBC said:
£3bn extra for new projects every year from 2015-16 until 2020, total of £15bn
Click to expand...

I think that the fact it states new projects means that those projects will not have been announced yet.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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YorkshireBear said:
No specific new schemes mentioned. Well that was disappointing.
Click to expand...

Schemes not worthy of a sound bite are often left to departments to announce later.
Something might emerge when Patrick McLoughlin next gets to his feet in the Commons.
I'm not sure NR can cope with more projects at the moment, and the CP5 plan is not yet approved.
 
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YorkshireBear

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LNW-GW Joint said:
Schemes not worthy of a sound bite are often left to departments to announce later.
Something might emerge when Patrick McLoughlin next gets to his feet in the Commons.
I'm not sure NR can cope with more projects at the moment, and the CP5 plan is not yet approved.
Click to expand...

I know :P I just wanted something to come out for my dissertation as it would have made what i was writing far more interesting and potentially worth more marks :)

I think the fact that he wants to spend in infrastructure is a good thing anyway.
 
Mikey C

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I guess the Coalition would want to get the brownee points for new rail and road plans, via specific announcements at a later date.

Besides I can't imagine a GOBLIN announcement without Boris being there :)
 
anthony263

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Mikey C said:
Besides I can't imagine a GOBLIN announcement without Boris being there :)
Click to expand...


I was thinking the same especially if he can say he has won the battle against the DFT over who will pay for electrification of the goblin if it gets the go ahead.
 
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mwmbwls

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Does this mean that some of the projects that fall out of the HLOS IIP as a result of the ORR reconciling this wish list with the SOFA might be revived. If so how would we ever know?
 
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pemma

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mwmbwls said:
Does this mean that some of the projects that fall out of the HLOS IIP
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Projects always fall out of HLOS. It's an illustrative example not a case of what will definitely happen. HLOS included brand new DMUs to be introduced last year in to the Northern, TPE and FGW fleets and new EMUs for Northern with LM gaining the Northern 323s. However, those were dropped in favour of electrification and cascading Thameslink units (following Thameslink getting given the go-ahead for brand new EMUs) and a small order for new 350s for LM and TPE.
 
LNW-GW Joint

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mwmbwls said:
Does this mean that some of the projects that fall out of the HLOS IIP as a result of the ORR reconciling this wish list with the SOFA might be revived. If so how would we ever know?
Click to expand...

The HLOS/SoFA/CP5 cycle is only half complete.
NR's plans (Jan) are being reviewed for cost and deliverability by ORR (June), and there will be another round of fine tuning before NR get the go-ahead for CP5 (Nov I think).
Things like GW electrification cost overrun (before they've even properly started) are worrying.
Several other schemes (eg electric spine and DC-AC conversion) are not planned in detail and in any case will only "start" in CP5.
On the plus side there may well be scope to include GOBLIN electrification and some other things, but only if something else comes out or is delayed.
The government has posted a fixed ceiling on CP5 costs, whatever the content.
 
Chris125

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LNW-GW Joint said:
On the plus side there may well be scope to include GOBLIN electrification and some other things, but only if something else comes out or is delayed.
Click to expand...

As NR confirmed to the London Assembly, GOBLIN electrification is being progressed as if funding had been confirmed which they hope will see it built before 2018 - getting it to GRIP3 later this year will give more certainty over the cost, so with the extra infrastructure spending may well help it get funded in the Autumn Statement.

Chris
 
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swt_passenger

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telstarbox said:
Could someone briefly explain the difference between HLOS, GRIP and CPs?
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HLOS = high level output strategy. This is what the government wants 'the railway' to undertake during the next 5 year 'control period' - that being referred to as a CP. The reason it is an 'output' strategy is that in theory the government specify what they want only in terms of capacity, eg 'increase capacity into Waterloo by 25% by 2019' might be in the HLOS, then Network Rail come up with details on how to achieve that. The HLOS is accompanied by a budget - this is known as the SOFA, statement of funds available.

Normally you'll see the CP defined by a number - we are currently in CP4 which is from April 2009 to March 2014.

The present debate is all about what is to be done in CP5 which is the 5 year period from April 2014-March 2019.

GRIP stands for Governance of Railway Investment Projects, it is a system of railway 'project planning milestones', such that GRIPn (where n= 1 to 8) is a shorthand way of describing the stage an individual project is at. The GRIP stages are as follows:

1. Output definition
2. Pre feasibility
3. Option Selection
4. Single option development
5. Detailed design
6. Construction
7. Scheme handback
8. Project close out.
 
telstarbox

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Brilliant, cheers. Is the SOFA ringfenced for different types of spending or is it a single budget for Network Rail to allocate between the requirements of the HLOS?
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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telstarbox said:
Brilliant, cheers. Is the SOFA ringfenced for different types of spending or is it a single budget for Network Rail to allocate between the requirements of the HLOS?
Click to expand...

Single budget. But DfT know the basics from dialogue with NR.
ORR determine the exact allocation between NR projects, looking at comparable projects elsewhere and expecting a continuous improvement in efficiency from NR.
ORR then monitor the delivery against budget - NR definitely does not have a free hand.
This is only funding for infrastructure - funding for TOCs/trains etc is via the franchise mechanism.
The two don't always match!
 
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