Commuter seating

OwlMan · 13 Apr 2013

ATOC has commissioned AECOM and Institute for Transport Studies Leeds to evaluate what type of seating is preferred by commuters.
A copy of the final report is attached (split into segments because of file size)

Peter

RailUK Forums

yorksrob · 13 Apr 2013

Speaking as a commuter, they ought to offer the proper commuter layout - facing seats with a door for every ten

WatcherZero · 13 Apr 2013

Will read in detail later, the Exec Summary throws up some interesting statistics. 25% of passengers are bothered by sitting backwards and 16% wont sit backwards. The fairly obvious comfort demand increases by journey length with the shortest journeys people just want to get on a train and dont care about getting a seat. people didnt like facing seats with no table as they thought their knees would be touching. There doesnt actually seem to be any conclusion or detailed analysis from the study other than the discovery that people start behaving like a train is crowded well below the Dfts official 80% of seating capacity crowding metric, just some experimental results and suggestions for further research.

Simon11 · 14 Apr 2013

They key points from the study was to not that 2+2 was the ideal layout and no more 3+2!

What I found interesting was where people decided to sit on a train. The most popular seat being facing forwards, by the window with a table of 4. Then they go through what the next best seats. However, as the train gets busier, the most popular seat changes from being at the window to the aisle. Clearly so they can get away.

While the study is interesting, I can only see it having a small effect in reducing overcrowding.

bronzeonion · 14 Apr 2013

Before anyone shoots me,

I'll say best commuter train layout is fully longitudinal with plenty of strap hangers for inner suburban commuter routes for example London - Dartford and 2+2 bays around windows with longitudinal wherever you cannot accomodate a bay of 4 also with strap hangers again for outer suburban stuff for example London - Southend Victoria.

yorksrob · 14 Apr 2013

Whilst I wouldn't like to see more longitudinal seating on the network, I think that certain trains could do with commuter straps. Thinking particularly of the door areas of trans pennine 185's which can be like a tube train in terms of crowding.

WatcherZero · 14 Apr 2013

I prefer poles, the problem with straps for me is they are either too low or too high and I almost never see passengers using straps outside London when they are supplied. E.g packed train, 50 straps hanging from the ceiling and you might see one solitary person using them with everyone else either using poles, seat grab handles or just standing. The straps also have annoying tendency to swing in your face and visually look untidy.

LE Greys · 14 Apr 2013

This 'chequerboard' pattern has been known for years. It's an extension of the standard pattern of people sitting in a waiting room, the first to arrive takes the nearest seat to the door/service area/whatever, the second takes the middle seat of a row to balance between looking 'stand-off-ish' and getting too close, the third takes the far end seat, the fourth takes the middle of the largest gap, further people keep on taking the middle of the largest gap until all gaps are filled. 3+2 never really worked, except when any train was rammed solid, for the reasons outlined in the report. I shudder to think what the 6-a-side compartments of 2-HALs were like, but at least those had plenty of doors.

Harlesden · 14 Apr 2013

WatcherZero said:
I prefer poles, the problem with straps for me is they are either too low or too high and I almost never see passengers using straps outside London when they are supplied. E.g packed train, 50 straps hanging from the ceiling and you might see one solitary person using them with everyone else either using poles, seat grab handles or just standing. The straps also have annoying tendency to swing in your face and visually look untidy.

As a rail user who happens to be 5'6" tall,I have never had a strap swing in my face but now wondering if my 6'1" Caribbean fiance will have this problem when she arrives in the UK

317666 · 14 Apr 2013

I also prefer grab poles to straps, especially the sort of strap which just slides along the pole whenever the train accelerates and brakes.

I also prefer 3+2 seating on commuter trains to sideways seating. I would much rather a seat, albeit maybe a bit cramped, than have to stand up the whole way.

LE Greys · 14 Apr 2013

317666 said:
I also prefer grab poles to straps, especially the sort of strap which just slides along the pole whenever the train accelerates and brakes.

I also prefer 3+2 seating on commuter trains to sideways seating. I would much rather a seat, albeit maybe a bit cramped, than have to stand up the whole way.

Straps can cause a few problems unless you have wrists like Shane Warne. Maybe not so bad on trains, but the lateral forces generated on buses can have some interesting effects. In general, a fixed pole works much better.

Poles in the middle of the vestibule can be a bit awkward, although they have been put to some unusual uses by some Tyne & Wear Metro passengers.

yorksrob · 14 Apr 2013

WatcherZero said:
I prefer poles, the problem with straps for me is they are either too low or too high and I almost never see passengers using straps outside London when they are supplied. E.g packed train, 50 straps hanging from the ceiling and you might see one solitary person using them with everyone else either using poles, seat grab handles or just standing. The straps also have annoying tendency to swing in your face and visually look untidy.

The problem with poles is that if they're vertical, they're in the way and if they're horizontal on the ceiling, they're too high up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

317666 said:
I also prefer grab poles to straps, especially the sort of strap which just slides along the pole whenever the train accelerates and brakes.

I also prefer 3+2 seating on commuter trains to sideways seating. I would much rather a seat, albeit maybe a bit cramped, than have to stand up the whole way.

I agree that straps sliding along a pole would be completely pointless. I was thinking more along the lines of the plastic light bulb shaped objects that some tube trains used to have.

317666 · 14 Apr 2013

yorksrob said:
I agree that straps sliding along a pole would be completely pointless. I was thinking more along the lines of the plastic light bulb shaped objects that some tube trains used to have.

Ah yes, the bobble hangers. They are/were much better than straps.

yorksrob · 14 Apr 2013

317666 said:
Ah yes, the bobble hangers. They are/were much better than straps.

I think it's more a case of "were" as I don't think I've seen them on a tube train for years !

wintonian · 14 Apr 2013

LE Greys said:
This 'chequerboard' pattern has been known for years. It's an extension of the standard pattern of people sitting in a waiting room, the first to arrive takes the nearest seat to the door/service area/whatever, the second takes the middle seat of a row to balance between looking 'stand-off-ish' and getting too close, the third takes the far end seat, the fourth takes the middle of the largest gap, further people keep on taking the middle of the largest gap until all gaps are filled. 3+2 never really worked, except when any train was rammed solid, for the reasons outlined in the report. I shudder to think what the 6-a-side compartments of 2-HALs were like, but at least those had plenty of doors.

Reminds me of the etiquette involved in use of the gentleman's public lavatory.

Enough seats would be a good start.

As for longitude seating and a load of grab rails - not on a hour long journey into Waterloo thank you, there is life outside the suburbs of our major cities.

jopsuk · 14 Apr 2013

"reversible" seats are found in other countries- either simple passenger operated ones with a back that simply hinges across, or on long distance Japanese trains the entire seating unit can be spun. Not something that seems to have taken off in this country- due to safety concerns?

LE Greys · 14 Apr 2013

jopsuk said:
"reversible" seats are found in other countries- either simple passenger operated ones with a back that simply hinges across, or on long distance Japanese trains the entire seating unit can be spun. Not something that seems to have taken off in this country- due to safety concerns?

They're currently in use only on the Shipley Glen Tramway and in the GWS steam railmotor (sourced from Australia I believe).

Goatboy · 14 Apr 2013

Never really understand why 3+2 is favoured. The obvious answer is that it adds more capacity - but does it? When I used to commute to school on 3+2 4VEP's I'd stand rather than sit in a bay of 6 people as did many other passengers. So you ended up with only around 3-4 people per bay of 6.

2+2 seems better - more space to stand in the aisles and more comfort for those seated.

LE Greys · 14 Apr 2013

Goatboy said:
Never really understand why 3+2 is favoured. The obvious answer is that it adds more capacity - but does it? When I used to commute to school on 3+2 4VEP's I'd stand rather than sit in a bay of 6 people as did many other passengers. So you ended up with only around 3-4 people per bay of 6.

2+2 seems better - more space to stand in the aisles and more comfort for those seated.

Remember, the VEPs took over from compartment stock where four-a-side seating was normal, and non-corridor stock where six-a-side seating was normal (known as 'Knee-Knockers'). Three people was comparatively comfortable.

bronzeonion · 15 Apr 2013

3+2 seating is awful for a commuter train, yes it means the maximum number of people can get a seat but is it really all its cracked up to be? Crammed together like that trying to read your copy of the Metro without bumping into the people sat next to you, your phone goes off in your pocket the person sat next to you also felt it because your thighs are touching and then comes the long dwell times you squeeze through the narrow aisle trying to get out of one of the 2 doorways. I've heard Thameslink trains sit at London Bridge for up to 2mins before they set off again!

As for strap hangers, I find the ones fitted to the 378's pretty good but the bobble ones on unrefurbished tube stock are also pretty good. How about the type fitted to buses? Such as the circular plastic ring type or the triangular type?

sarahj · 15 Apr 2013

While I hate 3+2 seating, and as a guard trying to get through a train, they make our life a pain, esp on 377 with HD seating in all 4 coaches. Its all to do with numbers. Dft rules and many other people have issues with overcrowding and people standing. A coach with 3+2 seating might only have 7 extra seats per coach, but that 7 less people standing, and when train firms can get fined for not enough seats, well you do the math. If seats are available and people prefer to stand, thats not up to us, we have provided the seats.

swt_passenger · 15 Apr 2013

A very vocal public in the London and SE area (possibly led by the Evening Standard?) has for many years routinely demanded seats for everyone on every train; and they've always been much louder than the people arguing about seat layout details.

So DfT will quite rightly argue that they have responded to public opinion with the typical 3+2.

Whenever they did approve seat removal to allow increased standing capacity, and speed of access, such as on the Silverlink 313s, and then with SWT 455s and 450/5s, the TOC then gets all sorts of grief from the media who just go for the 'seats removed' simple headline.

But now that TfL have seemingly got away with the 378 layout - there'll be a lot more like that in due course.

Then the debate will shift to what is really meant by a 'commuter service'.

pemma · 15 Apr 2013

bronzeonion said:
3+2 seating is awful for a commuter train, yes it means the maximum number of people can get a seat but is it really all its cracked up to be? Crammed together like that trying to read your copy of the Metro without bumping into the people sat next to you, your phone goes off in your pocket the person sat next to you also felt it because your thighs are touching and then comes the long dwell times you squeeze through the narrow aisle trying to get out of one of the 2 doorways. I've heard Thameslink trains sit at London Bridge for up to 2mins before they set off again!

On the Merseytravel 142s if there's a ticket inspection and all seats are occupied then you have to learn forward or stand up to get your ticket out of your pocket, otherwise you elbow the person sat next to you in the ribs and that's if your slim build sat next to the window on one of the sets of 3 seats and 2 schoolkids have taken the other seats.

Only being stopped for 2 minutes at a principle station sounds good compare to the Northern 07:17 Manchester-Chester. How long do you think unloading over 100+ from this train at Knutsford takes:
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012-11-21-08.04.55.jpg ?

wintonian · 15 Apr 2013

swt_passenger said:
A very vocal public in the London and SE area (possibly led by the Evening Standard?) has for many years routinely demanded seats for everyone on every train; and they've always been much louder than the people arguing about seat layout details.

So DfT will quite rightly argue that they have responded to public opinion with the typical 3+2.

Whenever they did approve seat removal to allow increased standing capacity, and speed of access, such as on the Silverlink 313s, and then with SWT 455s and 450/5s, the TOC then gets all sorts of grief from the media who just go for the 'seats removed' simple headline.

But now that TfL have seemingly got away with the 378 layout - there'll be a lot more like that in due course.

Then the debate will shift to what is really meant by a 'commuter service'.

Lets not forget that 3+2 seating isn't suitable for Portsmouth commuters and that they would rather be on a 444 without enough seats.

bronzeonion · 15 Apr 2013

jcollins said:
On the Merseytravel 142s if there's a ticket inspection and all seats are occupied then you have to learn forward or stand up to get your ticket out of your pocket, otherwise you elbow the person sat next to you in the ribs and that's if your slim build sat next to the window on one of the sets of 3 seats and 2 schoolkids have taken the other seats.

Only being stopped for 2 minutes at a principle station sounds good compare to the Northern 07:17 Manchester-Chester. How long do you think unloading over 100+ from this train at Knutsford takes:
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2012-11-21-08.04.55.jpg ?

Exactly my point!

Enough to make it late or is the unloading time in the timetable? 2mins stopped at a station with very frequent services is enough to make things stop behind that train and cause knock on delays.

yorksrob · 15 Apr 2013

Facing 3 + 2 seating can be quite good for families or larger groups than 4 - and as people have pointed out, you're not forced to take the middle seat if you don't want to.

Pugwash · 15 Apr 2013

yorksrob said:
Facing 3 + 2 seating can be quite good for families or larger groups than 4 - and as people have pointed out, you're not forced to take the middle seat if you don't want to.

It it also useful for the obese that don't fit into one seat.

zoneking · 15 Apr 2013

3 + 2 must be culled. Even on packed train from ECR to VIC this morning there were empty seats in the middle of a 3. Airline style seating is more efficient and I prefer.

But I am one of those people who will stand all the way, even if seats available.

I would also introduce restrictions on all "wheeled vehicles" at peak-time, including buggies (except for disabled), very large cases, etc (not wheelchairs because of DDA).

jon0844 · 15 Apr 2013

I'd build all new stock with 2+2 seating and create larger areas for wheelchairs and buggies, which will also allow more standing room for those times when trains are inevitably going to be more crowded.

378s are a bit too far for longer commuting routes, but we should have something that sits between the mess of 3+2 and hardly any areas for luggage/wheelchairs (and buggies that are most likely going to be used at off-peak times) and the 378s. The S-Stock is perhaps an idea of how things can be mixed up, as well as more areas you can lean on or fold-down seats.

While I don't agree with buggy users wanting to kick people out of disabled areas, I do think it's fair to consider them in the future given how many people do use public transport - and possibly how many parents aren't using public transport because they know it will be a nightmare.

Many buggies can be folded, but prams carrying new born babies aren't so easy to fold up and if a mum (or dad) is travelling alone then it's rather hard, if not near impossible, to do all of that without asking for help.

The same areas would also allow more people to carry fold up bikes. In fact, open spaces are much more useful than squeezing in a load more narrow seats (in my opinion) but the DfT seems to want more seats and so we end up with the nonsense that is cramped seats, narrow aisles and abysmal loading and alighting times.

bronzeonion · 15 Apr 2013

The trains are just getting more and more crowded as rail travel gets more and more popular, with 3+2 you simply wont fit the people on if it carries on at this rate and eventually 2+2. Enjoy the novelty whilst it lasts on some routes! :P

Commuter seating

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