route:oxford
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A "furious complaint" doesn't deserve more than an acknowledgement.
No matter what the circumstances, civil and dignified is the way to go about things.
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dubious use of booked assists???
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A "furious complaint" doesn't deserve more than an acknowledgement.
No matter what the circumstances, civil and dignified is the way to go about things.
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I have only once booked assistance, due to a bad attack of gout, which is no doubt caused by over use of the Pullman.
Very helpful staff at Paddington, though not really needed as it was much better by the day of travel.
On arrival at Taunton I had neither requested nor needed assistance, but total chaos was caused as both train and station staff searched for "the disabled gent who needs help" I explained that I was fine and needed no help and still know not if they were looking for ME or for someone else.
I felt rather a fool in taking up everyones time when I needed no help at Taunton, and in retrospect could have managed at Paddington.
There was a partialy sighted man alighting at Taunton also and he wondered if all the fuss was for him, but he booked no assistance and seemed well able locate the taxi rank on his own.
Very helpful staff at Paddington, though not really needed as it was much better by the day of travel.
On arrival at Taunton I had neither requested nor needed assistance, but total chaos was caused as both train and station staff searched for "the disabled gent who needs help" I explained that I was fine and needed no help and still know not if they were looking for ME or for someone else.
I felt rather a fool in taking up everyones time when I needed no help at Taunton, and in retrospect could have managed at Paddington.
There was a partialy sighted man alighting at Taunton also and he wondered if all the fuss was for him, but he booked no assistance and seemed well able locate the taxi rank on his own.
gingerheid
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You are quite simply nothing other than incorrect.
If something happens three times, and you write three letters of complaint each pointing out what has happened before and what hasn't been done, and if you get three completely identical replies, then that lets you know that someone isn't even as much as bothering to read your letters or that they are and that they do not care.
If that happens you need to step up the pressure. It may have worked as it got a reply that was different, but could we take the chance of trying it and finding out?
No. For us the system has been brought down by arrogant people that think they know better and that will abuse a sick pensioner because they can't see what's wrong with her and because she looks more like 50ish.
The fact that this can keep on happening and that nobody seems to care about it, and that a guard that comes across a passenger (with a disabled pass) that has missed the stop where they should have been helped to change train and is heading off into the wrong part of the country will do little more than abusively accuse them of faredodging, tells me that there is a deep seated attitude problem. It seems to me that people have developed a culture of routinely deciding they know best rather than providing the service they are supposed to be.
I don't doubt that there are people that are abusing the system; but if staff decide to take a matter they know nothing about into their own hands they'll routinely get it wrong.
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blacknight
Member
What is your name badge other than your name? For instance Customer Service Assistant maybe then thats just a posher way of saying porter.
We are not medically trained so while someone might be able enough to wheel a case they may not be able to lift luggage on to train.
The more passenger wanting assistance better it is at strengthening the position securing jobs for staff on platform.
Beware of saying am single skilled train despatcher, ATM we have subcontracted company who want to grit platforms & try to manage vegitation groth, others do general cleaning & now wanting to do posters for us, had giggle when they remove & binned the timetable posters at another station.
Danger is what is to stop any TOC employing agency staff as porters to cut your workload, then get traincrew to self dispatch trains & soon you find you nolonger have a job.
At smaller stations, the "porter" was actually the stationman/woman.
Their duties involved jobs such as locking-up/opening the station, lighting and extinguishing the lamps, attending to the fire in the waiting room, handling goods, booking passengers, and even [with the grade of porter-signalman] opening-up the signalbox to allow the occasional train through. In other words, they did far more than simply help passengers with their baggage.
They became redundant as stations were modernised, the parcels traffic was lost, etc.
But nobody needs to be medically trained to see that if someone is being assisted by staff with a holdall but has too younger relatives with them who are travelling with nothing (mentioned above by op) that this is taking the p***.
Yes we must give assistance to those who need assistance. But those who have people with them who are carrying nothing and not helping are just taking advantage of the system.
There certainly seems to be many people, not just on the railways, who believe that to be 'disabled' you must be in a wheelchair (or at the very least be using crutches) or blind. They seem unable to accept the existence of disabilities which are invisible to the eye or that people who look 'fit' may require assistance for various reasons.
Post #36 above seems to reflect such attitudes quite neatly.
If someone has booked assistance they should be provided with that assistance. Any issues staff have with a particular booking should be taken up internally with the relevant teams in the TOC concerned, not with the supposedly 'dubious' passenger.
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What so having an elderly person's bag while two physically fit younger relatives are with them and just watch is acceptable?
You completely missed Sheff's point which is what exactly qualifies you to determine and state that the two younger relatives actually are physically fit?
My other half suffers from an extremely serious degenerative neurological disease but, apart from talking slowly and slurring her words when she is tired (which has led to her being accused by the police of being drunk when she is tee-total - that was fun, NOT!), there are no obvious signs whatsoever of this. Doubtless you would have a moan if she, quite rightly, asked for assistance as well......
Tom B
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With the increasing proliferation of ticket barriers at stations (which serve only to get in the way and save the guard a job) I wonder how many extra requests for assistance are raised, as people who might have assisted friends/relatives are told that they can't go through the barrier and what on earth is this "platform ticket" you wish to buy?
gingerheid
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If it was a non-stop journey we used to ask for platform tickets at either end, and if the station staff hadn't heard of them / tried to be awkward then we would say that they would have to assist instead (which soon produced platform tickets out them!). It the journey had a connection near one end then we'd even travel to that place to meet her.
For us the problem has always been journeys with a connection, and recent timetable recasts on the ECML and WCML have meant that any most journeys now include multiple connections, including one in the middle
Ok then we will assume that although the two people with the passenger appeared fit, they were actually unfit for carrying her bag.
Nothing qualifies us to say whether someone suffers from and illness/condition or not but if they have several people with them who are leading the way /walking ahead with speed personally I would assume they could pull a trolley case etc.
Obviously your view is that nobody would ever or does ever abuse the system of booked luggage assist just because its there.
AlexS
Established Member
No chap, I doubt that is the view. However the view is that you shouldn't make assumptions that people who appear to be fit and well, actually are.
I have a regular passenger I assist who appears to have nothing wrong with her - however in actual fact she has a fairly serious condition that results in her tiring out to the point of exhaustion pretty much instantly and the walk across the station and out to the car park where she can be picked up by her mum is too much for her - so we provide a wheelchair for her. We've been helping her out for years and have come to know her very well (you tend to find this with your regulars, I'm on first name terms with many of them, and indeed their guide dogs in many cases!). At Christmas we get a flurry of chocolates, booze and cards which is lovely - it is easy to forget day to day how much the service means to some people in terms of just being able to get out and about.
My personal gripe is with passengers (who may actually be disabled, but are capable of taking a degree of action themselves) who make sure assists fail by changing carriages to the opposite end of the train etc and then leaving as quickly as possible to claim compensation for not being helped as booked. The key with them is to continue providing (or attempting to provide) the assistance as booked, and letting revenue protection deal with the fraudulent claims using CCTV footage etc.
Those kind of cases tend to take a while to become apparent though as everyone makes mistakes occasionally and the human factor kicks in with failed assists. If that happens all you can do is apologise and make up for it as best you can.
I'd never condone not providing assistance just because you've decided someone is on the fiddle or can't actually need it.
I have a regular passenger I assist who appears to have nothing wrong with her - however in actual fact she has a fairly serious condition that results in her tiring out to the point of exhaustion pretty much instantly and the walk across the station and out to the car park where she can be picked up by her mum is too much for her - so we provide a wheelchair for her. We've been helping her out for years and have come to know her very well (you tend to find this with your regulars, I'm on first name terms with many of them, and indeed their guide dogs in many cases!). At Christmas we get a flurry of chocolates, booze and cards which is lovely - it is easy to forget day to day how much the service means to some people in terms of just being able to get out and about.
My personal gripe is with passengers (who may actually be disabled, but are capable of taking a degree of action themselves) who make sure assists fail by changing carriages to the opposite end of the train etc and then leaving as quickly as possible to claim compensation for not being helped as booked. The key with them is to continue providing (or attempting to provide) the assistance as booked, and letting revenue protection deal with the fraudulent claims using CCTV footage etc.
Those kind of cases tend to take a while to become apparent though as everyone makes mistakes occasionally and the human factor kicks in with failed assists. If that happens all you can do is apologise and make up for it as best you can.
I'd never condone not providing assistance just because you've decided someone is on the fiddle or can't actually need it.
Some very good points Alex. But what Sheff is saying above is that the person described in op (booked mobility/luggage assist/elderly but had two younger people with her not heping but appeared to be perfectly mobile) may not have been able to be given help by the two with her as they also may not be fit for helping.
So the question there is not about whether the person who has booked the assistance is worthy but whether the two people accompanying that person could have helped or although they appeared mobile/younger etc were probably not medically capable of helping.
AlexS
Established Member
If they've booked the assistance, it's probably best not to bother thinking about it, as you'll merely end up bitter and twisted 
If they've booked the assistance, it's probably best not to bother thinking about it, as you'll merely end up bitter and twisted
Too true.
Only when assists clash / or stop dispatches on other platforms it makes you think about it.
AlexS
Established Member
It could, but I always prioritise dispatching over assistance, as its a safety critical activity, so it doesn't change how I deal with things. If a pass assist has to wait 10 minutes or something I politely explain why and apologise and haven't had an issue yet.
But if you had a booked assist say on the 10.38 to London, but had a dispatch to do on the 10.39 to Norwich (made up times as an example) what would you do if you were the only one on duty?
The 10:39 would be delayed (and chances are the 10:38 would be as well if single staffed), and it'd get attributed accordingly (Code RC I believe).
AlexS
Established Member
And the above would continue to happen until someone sorted the staffing out - you can't just have trains self dispatch at a station assessed to require a dispatcher to deal with an assistance job. That's putting customer service ahead of safety which unfortunately isn't allowed. If it happened the other way round, and the customer missed their train, I'd point them in the right direction for the appropriate compensation arrangement.
Safety first, always. You'd hope if you TOC got fed up enough of the delay attribution/compensation claims they'd come to a more sensible staffing arrangement.
Safety first, always. You'd hope if you TOC got fed up enough of the delay attribution/compensation claims they'd come to a more sensible staffing arrangement.
Ok well what you've said is very eye opening and I can tell you that at my station we are single manned on platforms and that if no dispatcher is present when a scheduled dispatch rolls in the guard will just do a self dispatch. The guard never waits for staff etc they just do the self dispatch no questions and the train is gone.
Edit: At our station training has pointed us in the direction of if its a booked assist that must come first as we have to adhere to the booked agreement and if this happens to clash with a scheduled dispatch the train must do an automatic self dispatch (upon rolling in guard sees no dispatcher and just dispatches) which is what seems to happen.
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AlexS
Established Member
I work at a multi million passenger per year (around the 5 million mark) mainline station with multiple permissively worked bi directional platforms with more than one entrance, slam door trains and so on - guards don't self dispatch without prior authority. If there's no dispatcher, they'll wait until one turns up.
That said, we do only single man at very quiet periods (after 2300 and before 0500) so booked assists don't tend to turn up at those times. There are a few that do (always completing journeys that have already commenced and require help leaving, rather than starting journeys) and they've never minded waiting as far as I am aware.
If I'm really stuck (short staffed etc), I'll drag a manager or supervisor out to deal with the assistance job, which they are generally happy to do.
Generally speaking we manage pretty well, but safety duties always have to be the priority.
That said, we do only single man at very quiet periods (after 2300 and before 0500) so booked assists don't tend to turn up at those times. There are a few that do (always completing journeys that have already commenced and require help leaving, rather than starting journeys) and they've never minded waiting as far as I am aware.
If I'm really stuck (short staffed etc), I'll drag a manager or supervisor out to deal with the assistance job, which they are generally happy to do.
Generally speaking we manage pretty well, but safety duties always have to be the priority.
AlexS
Established Member
The station dispatch plan requires a dispatcher to be present. It does allow self dispatch but this has to be authorised in advance, generally by control sending out messages to that effect to Blackberrys/email addresses. As far as I am aware this has never been done for my station.
Flamingo
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We have been specifically told we are NOT to lift luggage if we consider it may be to heavy - that way, if we injure ourselves, it is our own fault.
I have had numerous young fit (looking) passengers who have turned up with a suitcase that was the right size and weight to be containing a body, and say they can't lift it on to the train, I would have to. They usually manage it on their own in the end!
My favourite was the woman who asked / told me to lift her case onto the overhead rack, when I said I couldn't (I was recovering from an injury to my arm), she then turned to the six foot teenager standing behind her that she was travelling with and said to him " You'll have to do it Peter, he's too lazy"! (It was unfortunate for her when I was doing the ticket check that their Advance ticket was for a later train, I was not inclined to ignore it!).
I have had numerous young fit (looking) passengers who have turned up with a suitcase that was the right size and weight to be containing a body, and say they can't lift it on to the train, I would have to. They usually manage it on their own in the end!
My favourite was the woman who asked / told me to lift her case onto the overhead rack, when I said I couldn't (I was recovering from an injury to my arm), she then turned to the six foot teenager standing behind her that she was travelling with and said to him " You'll have to do it Peter, he's too lazy"! (It was unfortunate for her when I was doing the ticket check that their Advance ticket was for a later train, I was not inclined to ignore it!).
edwin_m
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Surely different arrangements apply at different stations and possibly even to different types of train at the same station?
Flamingo
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It depends on the station, the platform, and the time of the day. It's usually in the Sectional Appendix for a lot of stations. Some of it has to do with the platform curve, and the train type. The guard would be expected to know as part of their route knowledge.
trainophile
Established Member
If you know your case is heavy and you're likely to struggle to get it on board, how would it be viewed if you asked whether the wheelchair ramp could be made available so you could wheel the case on? Would discretionary use be allowed if the traveller was an elderly or frail looking person?
Nym
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So what about people who have severe disablement and don't look it, a 16 - 25 year old for example...?
Helping anyone is fraught with so many problems balancing expectations and ability, and fitting in to the demands of the business. Over the past few years I have spent some time with a group of disabled adults. I have had the time and guidance from the staff to get to know who is capable but lazy, who actually needs help but won't ask for it and who is fine most of the time but occasionally something flares up requiring more support. Platform staff do not have this luxury. Just a few sparse details, maybe not 100% accurate.
My own family have experiences at both ends of the spectrum. An extremely long phone call to book assistance which failed to materialise for whatever reason. However, on another occasion a member of platform staff stayed on duty past their booked finishing time to take them off a train.
One thing that amuses me is the "We want to be treated normally" section, but want special treatment at times of minor disruption.
My own family have experiences at both ends of the spectrum. An extremely long phone call to book assistance which failed to materialise for whatever reason. However, on another occasion a member of platform staff stayed on duty past their booked finishing time to take them off a train.
One thing that amuses me is the "We want to be treated normally" section, but want special treatment at times of minor disruption.
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