tsr
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Does it involve an orange hi-vis jacket and a distinct look of correctness on your face?
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EMT again
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Does it involve an orange hi-vis jacket and a distinct look of correctness on your face?
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RJ
Established Member
Whilst some railway staff with a vested interest do read these forums surreptitiously or otherwise, I suspect the greater majority of front line staff do not and as such, any allusions to "RJ" would be all but meaningless. Besides, I like to travel in relative anonymity, not wishing to draw that kind attention to myself.
I have no interest in impersonating railway staff or any undertaking other fraudulent practice either. Once EMT catch on to the way in which I'm helping them then I will elucidate.
In the meantime, I travelled back down to London yesterday evening. I was unable to buy my ticket of choice at my origin so I boarded the train. The TM was very pleasant and sold me the Bilbrook to Brondesbury SVR I asked for with a YP discount, no questions asked. Now that's good customer service. I was intending on using my RTVs and spare change but as they were so nice, I paid by card instead. Fingers crossed they keep up the good work.
The Senior Conductors on the regional services have always been very pleasant when I have encountered them. Funnily enough, they always seem to come through when I travel on those services.
I have a funny feeling that I got clocked yesterday afternoon. I boarded a service destined for Sheffield and Corby and sat in the tipup seat by the external door. My ticket was checked after Bedford. I presented a Rugby to Derby ticket and the TM spent quite some time writing on a bit of paper before marking the ticket and handing it back to me. All without saying a word. My name was on the ticket as it was ToD'd.
I made the rookie error of boarding the wrong portion of the train, as I found out at Kettering - I certainly didn't want to go to Corby. I was disappointed that the TM saw that my ticket showed Derby as a destination and made a point of writing it down for it to be reported, yet failed to say anything at all. If this is standard behaviour, it shows poor awareness of customer needs - for all he knows, a customer could have an impairment or impediment which makes it difficult for them to follow the announcements/notices. Even if they were simply just distracted, there's nothing wrong with expending an almost negligible amount of extra effort to look after a passenger - and it shouldn't make a difference whether it it's an OAP, someone with an obvious disability or a young, seemingly invulnerable adult. When in customer service roles, I've certainly gone to the trouble of pre-empting possible faux pas' on the behalf of a customer and verifying with them that they're certain of what they're doing. Not once had a negative response and in many cases, they have actually benefitted from being pointed into the right direction.
Customer service seems to be a lost concept on many customer facing staff these days. More's the pity.
I have no interest in impersonating railway staff or any undertaking other fraudulent practice either. Once EMT catch on to the way in which I'm helping them then I will elucidate.
In the meantime, I travelled back down to London yesterday evening. I was unable to buy my ticket of choice at my origin so I boarded the train. The TM was very pleasant and sold me the Bilbrook to Brondesbury SVR I asked for with a YP discount, no questions asked. Now that's good customer service. I was intending on using my RTVs and spare change but as they were so nice, I paid by card instead. Fingers crossed they keep up the good work.
The Senior Conductors on the regional services have always been very pleasant when I have encountered them. Funnily enough, they always seem to come through when I travel on those services.
I have a funny feeling that I got clocked yesterday afternoon. I boarded a service destined for Sheffield and Corby and sat in the tipup seat by the external door. My ticket was checked after Bedford. I presented a Rugby to Derby ticket and the TM spent quite some time writing on a bit of paper before marking the ticket and handing it back to me. All without saying a word. My name was on the ticket as it was ToD'd.
I made the rookie error of boarding the wrong portion of the train, as I found out at Kettering - I certainly didn't want to go to Corby. I was disappointed that the TM saw that my ticket showed Derby as a destination and made a point of writing it down for it to be reported, yet failed to say anything at all. If this is standard behaviour, it shows poor awareness of customer needs - for all he knows, a customer could have an impairment or impediment which makes it difficult for them to follow the announcements/notices. Even if they were simply just distracted, there's nothing wrong with expending an almost negligible amount of extra effort to look after a passenger - and it shouldn't make a difference whether it it's an OAP, someone with an obvious disability or a young, seemingly invulnerable adult. When in customer service roles, I've certainly gone to the trouble of pre-empting possible faux pas' on the behalf of a customer and verifying with them that they're certain of what they're doing. Not once had a negative response and in many cases, they have actually benefitted from being pointed into the right direction.
Customer service seems to be a lost concept on many customer facing staff these days. More's the pity.
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bb21
Emeritus Moderator
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Ticket-on-departure, ie. where you collect the tickets from a TVM. (Doesn't necessarily mean "on departure" though in a literal sense, as the ticket could have been collected in advance.)
I have no idea what the problem is here!
Presumably he spotted who you were, accepted your ticket was valid without question, made a note of it, and moved on.
Isn't that what they are supposed to be doing?
If you make a point of travelling with tickets on very obscure routes, I think it's a bit cheeky to complain when they don't tell you that you are on the wrong route.
And, in your circumstances, you should probably be more careful. If you do make a mistake and end up with an invalid ticket then you obviously won't get much sympathy from some of their staff.
RJ
Established Member
I didn't pass any comment either way about the way the ticket was inspected. Evidently he was only going by the brief that was issued, so it is to be expected. I wasn't off route - I was in the wrong portion of a train that was due to split, which was taking me to a dead end which would have necessitated either an unacceptable wait to go forward to Leicester, or a double back to Kettering. My ticket was to Derby and the other portion of the train was stopping at Derby.
As for sympathy - do bear in mind that several of their staff have issued PFNs, UFNs and reported me - and that when I have had valid tickets. If there is anything like a discretion policy then I'm probably not eligible for it. The only way for me to ensure I keep my record clean is to ensure I have a valid ticket or excuse prior to boarding the train. Me not having either - it's just not going to happen.
If you've ever worked a train which splits en route, you'll be aware that despite any audio and visual announcements, you still get passengers who end up in the wrong portion of the train. I have worked on such services and it's not particularly beneficial for anyone concerned when a customer seeks assistance after being taken miles down the road from where they want to be. Anything within reason that can be done to mitigate that should be done. It was certainly a missed opportunity for a bit of good customer service, especially when he clearly didn't just take a perfunctory glance at the ticket.
If a number of the company's ticket inspectors enjoy spending upwards of 30 minutes either extracting undue large sums of money from paid up customers or reporting them for prosecution, why can't they also go to the effort of tentatively asking if the customer is sure they're in the right portion of the train?
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How was he supposed to know where you were going?
They know you don't go to the destination on your ticket and have been told to accept whatever route you take. It seems to me that could be what happened.
As you like to pay as little as possible, but within the rules, then I can understand if they want to help you as little as possible, but within the rules. While I couldn't really condone that, I would have some sympathy for that position!
This obviously wouldn't apply to other passengers, and it could just have been poor customer service - as you know, it's not particularly uncommon!
They know you don't go to the destination on your ticket and have been told to accept whatever route you take. It seems to me that could be what happened.
As you like to pay as little as possible, but within the rules, then I can understand if they want to help you as little as possible, but within the rules. While I couldn't really condone that, I would have some sympathy for that position!
This obviously wouldn't apply to other passengers, and it could just have been poor customer service - as you know, it's not particularly uncommon!
It might do if you get on the wrong portion of a train again!
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RJ
Established Member
Just so happens the Rugby to Derby ticket is valid via Corby anyway! But not a route anyone would be expected to take given the paucity of services forward from Corby.
The brief specifically says that I travel to areas in Leicestershire and Derbyshire so if I'm on a train, part of which is going through those areas, with a ticket to Derby then on the balance of probabilities, it probably wouldn't do any harm to double check.
I don't have any sympathy for that mentality at all because they're paid a fixed salary to do a job, so should not be impassioned by how much or how little a passenger has paid for a ticket. I certainly wouldn't sympathise with a member of staff who consciously treats passengers with split tickets, Advance tickets, or child travellers less favourably than those holding a full fare Anytime ticket.
OwlMan
Established Member
Had another disagreement with EMT on Tuesday.
Using a Nuneaton to Elstree & Boreham Wood SVR and a weekely zones 1-6 travelcard on oyster
I broke my outward journey at Leicester to attend a meeting and then tried to travel to London.
THe EMT person manning the gate at Leicester wouldn't let me through "You can not board here using that ticket."
I pointed out that I had broken my journey as allowed and now wished to complete it.
"It costs less than a Leicester to Elstree ticket so you can't board here" was the next reply. Eventually he called a "supervisor" who saqid "This ticket is from Nuneaton you can't use it here.
After wasting 20 minutes at the barrier I phoned a senior manager who sent instructions to the gateline to let me on.
On board I then had grief over the train not stopping a Elstree & the fact that my season was on an Oyster Card. Apparantly EMT do not accept Oyster cards etc etc.
Having shown him the Oyster conditions of use ( I always carry a paper copy the NRCoC, Oyster NRCoC and the byelaws with me
"All Train Companies operating services into the London Fare Zones Area accept valid Travelcards issued on Oyster." did not apply to EMT and issued me a penalty fare.
Peter
Using a Nuneaton to Elstree & Boreham Wood SVR and a weekely zones 1-6 travelcard on oyster
I broke my outward journey at Leicester to attend a meeting and then tried to travel to London.
THe EMT person manning the gate at Leicester wouldn't let me through "You can not board here using that ticket."
I pointed out that I had broken my journey as allowed and now wished to complete it.
"It costs less than a Leicester to Elstree ticket so you can't board here" was the next reply. Eventually he called a "supervisor" who saqid "This ticket is from Nuneaton you can't use it here.
After wasting 20 minutes at the barrier I phoned a senior manager who sent instructions to the gateline to let me on.
On board I then had grief over the train not stopping a Elstree & the fact that my season was on an Oyster Card. Apparantly EMT do not accept Oyster cards etc etc.
Having shown him the Oyster conditions of use ( I always carry a paper copy the NRCoC, Oyster NRCoC and the byelaws with me
He claimed that
"All Train Companies operating services into the London Fare Zones Area accept valid Travelcards issued on Oyster." did not apply to EMT and issued me a penalty fare.
Peter
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I feel your frustration. What more can you realistically do?! :roll:
RJ
Established Member
From what I have heard, problems do tend to generally occur with staff on the Mainline side.
Using your real name?hock:
Of course - I haven't got anything to hide out there.
For crying out loud! Looks like I've just had a run of good luck this week and you keep getting accosted by those I'd sooner avoid! I've also had that one at the barriers at STP where I had to call the HQ to get them to order their staff to let me through, only I didn't wait for 20 minutes!
Do let us know how you deal with the PF - surely you won't be spending any time dealing with IRCAS?
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the sniper
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No offence, but I think it's a bit of a joke that you've critiqued his customer service on this. Going on the assumption that he did know who you are and what your deal is, then is it really surprising that he didn't say anything to you, when he might have said something to a 'normal' passenger?
Think of it this way, assuming this Guard isn't a member here but had had a heads up about you, all they would have known is that you were some guy who always has a valid ticket which doesn't normally look like it, he should not be questioned and should be left alone as he knows what he's doing. With this is mind, maybe the Guard thought it better to just stay out of your way... At the very least, they'd presumably have been briefed along the lines of 'this guy has a ticket which is valid for his journey, but his ticket probably won't tell you where his coming from or going to, or which way he's going'.
If you're going to play the game when it comes to using obscure routes and split tickets, you can't then complain when someone doesn't go out of their way to second guess what journey you might be making to make sure you've not put yourself in the wrong portion of the train! After all, you're the expert!
RJ
Established Member
No offence, but I think it's a bit of a joke that you've critiqued his customer service on this. Going on the assumption that he did know who you are and what your deal is, then is it really surprising that he didn't say anything to you, when he might have said something to a 'normal' passenger?
Think of it this way, assuming this Guard isn't a member here but had had a heads up about you, all they would have known is that you were some guy who always has a valid ticket which doesn't normally look like it, he should not be questioned and should be left alone as he knows what he's doing. With this is mind, maybe the Guard thought it better to just stay out of your way... At the very least, they'd presumably have been briefed along the lines of 'this guy has a ticket which is valid for his journey, but his ticket probably won't tell you where his coming from or going to, or which way he's going'.
If you're going to play the game when it comes to using obscure routes and split tickets, you can't then complain when someone doesn't go out of their way to second guess what journey you might be making to make sure you've not put yourself in the wrong portion of the train! After all, you're the expert!
Very valid points which I have considered. But I maintain that instead of overanalysing and overthinking things in this manner, sometimes it's best to simply put 2+2 together and go with basic customer service instinct. I have also built up a reputation for being polite so it's not as if a fierce response would have been anticipated. The worst case scenario is that I might have said "thanks, but I'm ok" and he would have just moved on. It's not challenging the ticket I'm using - it's just checking that I'm in the correct part of the train, which is not the same thing at all.
If a passenger has a ticket to Derby, the other half of the train is going to Derby and the portion they're in is branching off to a dead end, it's not exactly unreasonable to think that they might not be in the correct part of the train. As I say, I should think that staff are well aware that passengers can get it wrong on trains that split so there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking the opportunity to double check.
I'm the type of person who looks out for the needs of customers - all of them, not just the ones that appear to be vulnerable. I understand that my opinions may conflict with the views of the jaded but that's something that I can't help.
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I hate trains that split - you can guarantee there's always somebody who hasn't heard, hasn't listened, hasn't seen or didn't manage to follow instructions at the first time of asking. Nature of the beast, and a good reason to do full ticket checks at a strategic point so that you can talk to people face to face and make sure they understand.....!
gpb_croppers63
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This makes me remember going on a day trip to Bath from Swansea when I was a child. We had to change trains in Cardiff Central and, at the time, they used to stop both the Manchester train (that left first) and the Portsmouth train really close to each other on the same platform. It looked to the untrained (if you'll pardon the pun
) eye that the two trains were connected.Anyway, we got talking to these two lovely old ladies with strong Manchester accents just after the train left Cardiff. It turned out, they thought they were on the Manchester train which had left about five minutes before us and would be long gone by the time we got to Newport so they had to get off and wait an hour there for the next train. Fortunately, they stopped putting the trains so closely together in Cardiff before Advance tickets came in otherwise these two ladies would have been knackered!
Sorry for the off-topic post but my memory was jogged by the quoted post and I thought I'd share.
the sniper
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Fair enough, I just don't think you can consider yourself a 'normal' passenger any more in these circumstances. If (as it looks here) I was specifically warmed not to bother a specific passenger should I come across them because they were a special case, I would do just that, I'd leave you to it. I'm not at all jaded by what you do, I doubt the Guard involved was, but bothering you wouldn't be worth disobeying the orders from those up above.
Knowing your deal from here I'd have no problem talking to you, but if I didn't know what you were about or exactly why you were a special case, I'd just steer clear.
Saying all this, the Guard might just have forgot which carriage they were in so didn't warn you you were in the wrong one.
OwlMan
Established Member
I only waited 20 minutes because it took over 10 minutes to find the supervisor.
How does someone become a supervisor without a basic knowledge of ticketing?
The on-train guard was one that I have previously had problems with.
I have already written to the Route Manager Leicestershire at EMT asking why I was issued a Penalty Fare with a perfectly valid ticket combination., and asking for the PF to be cancelled.
RJ
Established Member
Hmmm - the barrier staff at St Pancras attempted to send me on a wild goose chase looking for a supervisor but I felt that was an unsatisfactory way of dealing with the matter so made the phone call immediately. I find their way of dealing with certain things to be quite time wasting and inefficient so sometimes I find it best to take control of the situation on their behalf, if I'm able to do so legitimately.
Supervisors never like to be proven wrong in front of their colleagues and it very much seems that some elements of the railway operate on a "customer is always wrong" principle, which is something I wish to see eradicated. I've had supervisors come with the bravado, fortuitously backing up their colleague who is also wrong, but I have found myself wondering how well that stands up when they both end up going through a formal disciplinary procedure. Wilful customer service failure is risky as a.) you never know who you're dealing with and b.) not everyone is a hothead, some will persevere with having the dispute settled by the book.
Sounds like you have the PF situation under control so that's ok.
I'm still on a roll - I boarded a service this evening where the ticket office at my origin was shut, again fulfilling my Condition 3 responsibilities. After Leicester, I asked to purchase an Atherstone to Mill Hill Broadway Not Via London SVR, along with a Kentish Town to London Thameslink single to go with my Zone 2-4 Oyster Travelcard and didn't have any problems once I explained the logic behind it. I will be back on the 05:45 from St Pancras on Monday which is logistically quite difficult, because the TM checks tickets prior to letting passengers board and if they don't like the tickets, will send people to the ticket office knowing full well they're both shut until after the train leaves.
Supervisors never like to be proven wrong in front of their colleagues and it very much seems that some elements of the railway operate on a "customer is always wrong" principle, which is something I wish to see eradicated. I've had supervisors come with the bravado, fortuitously backing up their colleague who is also wrong, but I have found myself wondering how well that stands up when they both end up going through a formal disciplinary procedure. Wilful customer service failure is risky as a.) you never know who you're dealing with and b.) not everyone is a hothead, some will persevere with having the dispute settled by the book.
Sounds like you have the PF situation under control so that's ok.
I'm still on a roll - I boarded a service this evening where the ticket office at my origin was shut, again fulfilling my Condition 3 responsibilities. After Leicester, I asked to purchase an Atherstone to Mill Hill Broadway Not Via London SVR, along with a Kentish Town to London Thameslink single to go with my Zone 2-4 Oyster Travelcard and didn't have any problems once I explained the logic behind it. I will be back on the 05:45 from St Pancras on Monday which is logistically quite difficult, because the TM checks tickets prior to letting passengers board and if they don't like the tickets, will send people to the ticket office knowing full well they're both shut until after the train leaves.
Last Sunday I traveled from Victoria to Margate. This train splits at Faversham with the rear bit going to Dover. First the gateline staff told people it wasn't going to Canterbury then I spotted the split was the reverse to normal with the Dover bit (which leave Faversham second) at the front. The gateline staff claimed the train didn't even split and so I asked the driver given the guard was nowhere to be found. He confirmed the train would "reverse split" so I pointed out that would make the Margate part late which he denied and then when I pointed out the Faversham departure times of each portion he agreed so I asked why and he wouldn't say. Anyway locals obviously know which way the train usually splits and so just jump on and of course the onboard boards were off. Sure enough the guard passed thru and hoardes of people were moved. Despite even this still leaving Faversham we took several groups of tourists heading to Canterbury towards Margate!
High Dyke
Established Member
To balance this a little i relate the tale of last Saturday. Gentleman sat in front of me has a Kings Cross - Lincoln (EC & Connections), but split at Newark Northgate: i.e. KGX - NNG - LCN. However travel centre staff advised the gent to change at Peterborough where he found himself on the direct PBO - LCN service, via the GN/GE.
The guard checked his ticket, pointed out the error in the journey he was taking, but did allow him to travel without charging him any further. No doubt there are others that couldn't wait to make a bit of extra commission out of the misfortune of the traveller.
The guard checked his ticket, pointed out the error in the journey he was taking, but did allow him to travel without charging him any further. No doubt there are others that couldn't wait to make a bit of extra commission out of the misfortune of the traveller.
Qwerty133
Established Member
Im guessing that it would have been the same man that told me my child weekly season between Narborough and a station on the derwent valley line wasnt valid at leicester this afternoon. (I only went through the barriers to go to the ticket office to get a ticket wallet so even if it was an advance ticket would still have been valid.)
blacknight
Member
Did ticket office sell split ticket then offer journey plan for the change at Peterborough?
Or did gentleman say I am travelling to Lincoln & where he should change for Lincoln, also did he state he was travelling on split tickets. I was not there & I guess you was not standing behind him when information was given either.
RJ
Established Member
That's good. To be fair, I've travelled between London and the East Mids half a dozen or so times since last Monday and I haven't have a single problem. That said, I haven't come across any RPI/Os yet, they tend to be much more keen to pin something on me than the TMs.
I'll be travelling back down to London this afternoon, likely on the 17:53 Leicester to London service using a new combination of tickets that represent even better value for money than those which use the Derby to Rugby off peak ticket. It involves using 5 paper tickets plus an Oyster Season for the one way trip and invokes Condition 16 plus all three parts of Condition 19 of the NRCoC. Fingers crossed all will be fine and dandy!
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telstarbox
Established Member
Please get your blog going soon, it sounds like it will be a good read!
Hyphen
Member
Hope you got on OK and you're not currently sat in a BTP cell awaiting a decision from ATOS on its validity!
RJ
Established Member
It was fine thank you - no melodrama! An RPO boarded the train at Leicester and asked for tickets from Leicester and Kettering only. My tickets were not checked. I was quite surprised to find that someone was sitting in the seat for which I held a reservation, despite the carriage being virtually empty with none of the other seats reserved. I didn't understand the rationale behind his decision to sit there but I didn't question it either and sat somewhere else.
The aim of the game is not to have a conversation with ticket inspectors - but to travel as cheaply as legally permissible so as to avoid the threat of prosecution. Consequently, once I've paid for the service, I'm quite happy to travel without my tickets being checked. The barriers at St Pancras accept the Kentish Town to London Thameslink singles I've been using so no issues there either.
I'm likely to be heading back up to the East Midlands on the 13:25 from St Pancras tomorrow afternoon and back down to London on the 18:55 from Leicester to St Pancras.
The aim of the game is not to have a conversation with ticket inspectors - but to travel as cheaply as legally permissible so as to avoid the threat of prosecution. Consequently, once I've paid for the service, I'm quite happy to travel without my tickets being checked. The barriers at St Pancras accept the Kentish Town to London Thameslink singles I've been using so no issues there either.
I'm likely to be heading back up to the East Midlands on the 13:25 from St Pancras tomorrow afternoon and back down to London on the 18:55 from Leicester to St Pancras.
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High Dyke
Established Member
I can't say for sure. I wasn't with the gent at the point of origin, nor was i nosey enough to see what his ticket said.
Skymonster
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I think you've got a bit of cheek expecting EMT to question you choice of location to sit on the train RJ. By your own admission, you've pretty much gotten just what you wanted from EMT - to be left alone and not have your ticketing choices challenged. That seems to extend to it not necessarily being obvious from your tickets where you have come from and where you are going, as well as not challenging the validity of your tickets. It seems like on this occasion, that's exactly what happened - you weren't challenged or questioned - and rightly so given your circumstances. I don't work in the railways but I know that in a similar situation in my own work role I'd do exactly the same - assume you knew what you were doing and leave you to your own devices, not out of spite but on the assumption you did indeed know what you were doing as I'd been advised so to do. And should you have messed up (and ended up in Corby in this case) I'd have expected you to sort your own mess out too.
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