Permission to buy on board train

jb · 1 May 2013

This is a really odd thread. 90% of threads on here are about bleating against the TOCs where the passenger has not been allowed to take the p**s, quite frankly. Here we have a ridiculous anti-passenger line and the usual suspects are sticking up for the guard!

You lot sure are weird.

RailUK Forums

Mojo · 1 May 2013

In a similar situation one presents their Priv to the (commercial) guard and says "is it alright for me to hop on?" The guard then comes round and asks for payment for a Priv rate single.

I am linking both situations as I consider them to be the same. The intended meaning of the question in both circumstances should be clear, but is not necessarily.

johnnychips · 1 May 2013

Would the guard have been capable of issuing a discount ticket with his machine? Sorry if this has already been asked.

furlong · 1 May 2013

Mojo said:
In a similar situation one presents their Priv to the (commercial) guard and says "is it alright for me to hop on?" The guard then comes round and asks for payment for a Priv rate single.

I am linking both situations as I consider them to be the same. The intended meaning of the question in both circumstances should be clear, but is not necessarily.

Got to be careful with that comparison though: there are subtle differences. If there was an open ticket office, yes, staff tickets must be bought before boarding.

If there was only a ticket machine, I don't think there's any need for staff to do anything before boarding: staff PRIV tickets can be bought on board. However, there is an obligation to actively seek out the guard to purchase the ticket, whereas the public quite probably don't have that obligation (though I'd always advise doing so).

ian959 · 2 May 2013

I might be dense but if the OPs wife has had the problem before then why would she repeat the scenario again instead of just buying a ticket and waiting for the next train? Clearly from the OPs wording she would have done so had the guard said no so it cannot be critical that she is on this particular train. More importantly why does she not ask the RIGHT question of the guard after having had problems before, namely 'may I buy a ticket on board with a 16-25 Railcard'?

As it is, the OPs wife asked a question to which she was given a correct answer and she was sold a ticket on board - end of story as far as I am concerned. I don't believe that we can reasonably expect railway staff to be mind readers as to what the person really wants to ask in their question.

richardtheblue · 2 May 2013

Thank you for the (many and varied) responses - you've given me a number of things to think about (and started a debate it seems)! Since I wrote my earlier message in a hurry, please let me clarify a few things.

First, my wife asked, and was given, permission to buy a ticket for her journey on board the train, before she boarded. So as mentioned above there can surely be no question of a penalty fare - it is completely misleading to suggest that the guard was lenient in not issuing one.

Secondly, my wife and I between us probably make around 100-200 similar journeys a year. Since the trains are every 10 minutes, for around 20% of these journeys there is not time to buy a ticket before boarding the train. On all such occasions we go to the guard and ask if we can buy a ticket on board the train (and it's not just us - it seems commonplace at the stations on this line). As an estimate, around 95% of the time the guard says yes and sells a ticket (with railcard discount for my wife - so it is possible to do this on their machine). Occasionally they say no, in which case we buy a ticket from the machine/ticket office and wait for the next train. Only once before, and now today, has she been told she can buy on board and then refused a railcard discount (I wasn't there either time).

Third, isn't the advice always given if you don't have time to buy a ticket beforehand that you should ask permission to buy on board the train? See, e.g.
http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/fa...-train-if-the-ticket-office-queue-is-too-long

which states

"If you decide to board a train without a ticket as the queue at the ticket office was too long, in these circumstances it is advisable to get permission from station staff and/or seek out the conductor and explain the situation.

If you do get on the train without having bought a ticket and there were facilities to pay, or you did not get permission from station staff to get on without a ticket, you may be prosecuted for fare evasion, charged the full fare for the journey or issued with a penalty fare."

Surely the latter paragraph implies, by any reasonable interpretation, that if you *do* get permission to get on without a ticket then these penalties (including being charged the full fare) don't apply? My wife was given permission to buy on board (that is, to get on without a ticket), so surely according to this should have access to the full range of tickets even though she didn't specify the railcard? In any case, I agree with the posters who have suggested that in this context, 'can I buy a ticket on board' should naturally be interpreted as meaning 'from the full range of tickets'.

Fourth, she wasn't sold an undiscounted ticket - it was an off peak day return, just with no railcard discount. I don't know what logic the guard used to decide off peak was allowed but railcards not - any ideas?

I appreciate that my original post must have made me appear like someone who wants to complain about any and every perceived sleight - I hope this isn't the case! It's a very small sum of money in question (around £1), certainly not worth the time and effort of these posts, let alone following up - but I will be writing to London Midland about it for the following reasons.

1) First, as above, we commonly ask permission to buy on board, and I would like to be confident of where we stand, especially since the same situation on another train could be very expensive.

2) Second, as above, it appears lots of people ask to buy on board like we do, so this is an important question that affects many people.

3) Finally, and most importantly, my wife was really upset by the incident. She feels that the guard was 'shouting rudely' at her in front of many other passengers. Whilst I wasn't there, I know my wife well(!), and she would go out of her way to avoid creating (or being part of) a scene. From her account this guard was, to quote an earlier poster 'a knob', who behaved in an completely unacceptable manner. Almost all the London Midland guards (from whom we regularly buy tickets) seem very friendly people, and this guard is letting down all his colleagues, and should not be allowed to continue in his position unless he changes his attitude. But how are London Midland to know if no-one complains?

The reason I asked on here was I wanted to know the actual legal position for this situation. In particular, I thought I remember seeing a document which explicitly stated that *if you are given permission* to board a train without a ticket, then you can buy from the full range of tickets on board, and I hoped someone would provide this - since no-one has, I guess I must have imagined it.

p.s. someone asked for the exact conversation prior to boarding - it was apparently:
'I haven't had time to buy a ticket, is it ok if I buy it on board?'
'Yes - just get on and come to the door at the back [indicating the door to the guard's compartment]'

Thanks again for the replies, infomation and suggestions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another source - not official, but showing at least that this is a big area of uncertainty:

From: http://conversation.which.co.uk/transport-travel/travelling-without-a-train-ticket-too-complicated/

"That aside, you must get a ticket no matter how long the queue at the ticket office is, according to the conditions in the rulebook. And yet watchdog Passenger Focus contradicts this by advising that if it’s more than five minutes’ wait at peak times and three minutes’ off-peak you can try hopping on board without a ticket – but get staff permission first.

If there isn’t a ticket machine or office or – more likely – the ticket machine is broken, then you can get on without a ticket. In all these circumstances you’re only supposed to pay the fare you would have paid if you’d bought the ticket just before getting on the train."

That is, if you have staff permission to board without a ticket (which my wife did), then you should only pay the fare you would have paid at the ticket office (i.e. railcards should be allowed). Correct or not?

bb21 · 2 May 2013

richardtheblue said:
First, my wife asked, and was given, permission to buy a ticket for her journey on board the train, before she boarded. So as mentioned above there can surely be no question of a penalty fare - it is completely misleading to suggest that the guard was lenient in not issuing one.

I agree. She could not be charged a Penalty Fare as she was given permission to board and be sold a ticket accordingly.

richardtheblue said:
Secondly, my wife and I between us probably make around 100-200 similar journeys a year. Since the trains are every 10 minutes, for around 20% of these journeys there is not time to buy a ticket before boarding the train. On all such occasions we go to the guard and ask if we can buy a ticket on board the train (and it's not just us - it seems commonplace at the stations on this line). As an estimate, around 95% of the time the guard says yes and sells a ticket (with railcard discount for my wife - so it is possible to do this on their machine). Occasionally they say no, in which case we buy a ticket from the machine/ticket office and wait for the next train. Only once before, and now today, has she been told she can buy on board and then refused a railcard discount (I wasn't there either time).

Surely if the trains are every 10 minutes, there shouldn't really be a problem of waiting for the next one? The obligation as a passenger is to arrive at the station in good time to purchase a ticket and then catch your train so arriving at the station just as the train pulls in is not "in good time".

richardtheblue said:
Third, isn't the advice always given if you don't have time to buy a ticket beforehand that you should ask permission to buy on board the train?

Surely the latter paragraph implies, by any reasonable interpretation, that if you *do* get permission to get on without a ticket then these penalties (including being charged the full fare) don't apply? My wife was given permission to buy on board (that is, to get on without a ticket), so surely according to this should have access to the full range of tickets even though she didn't specify the railcard? In any case, I agree with the posters who have suggested that in this context, 'can I buy a ticket on board' should naturally be interpreted as meaning 'from the full range of tickets'.

You have to read this in context. There was no issue with queues being too long at your wife's origin station so she should have bought a ticket before boarding.

As to whether she was given "implied" permission to be sold a discounted ticket, this is anyone's guess. I am inclined to think that it is somewhat unreasonable for a guard to agree to sell a ticket onboard and then refuse a Railcard discount, however guards are not psychics and he did exactly what he promised. Indeed as you note, he exercised some discretion in selling an Off-Peak ticket rather than an Anytime ticket.

One cannot extrapolate that being asked about buying onboard equates to being asked about buying discounted fares onboard. Penalty Fares are in operation on those lines and it would be perfectly reasonable for the guard to think that the passenger was asking for permission in order to not end up with a Penalty Fare should an RPI boards the service before he comes around to sell the ticket in question.

richardtheblue said:
Fourth, she wasn't sold an undiscounted ticket - it was an off peak day return, just with no railcard discount. I don't know what logic the guard used to decide off peak was allowed but railcards not - any ideas?

He exercised some discretion.

richardtheblue said:
I appreciate that my original post must have made me appear like someone who wants to complain about any and every perceived sleight - I hope this isn't the case! It's a very small sum of money in question (around £1), certainly not worth the time and effort of these posts, let alone following up - but I will be writing to London Midland about it for the following reasons.

1) First, as above, we commonly ask permission to buy on board, and I would like to be confident of where we stand, especially since the same situation on another train could be very expensive.

I think it is probably a little out of the blue if previous experiences suggest that a Railcard-discounted ticket is normally sold onboard. However as I said, the guard did exactly what he promised and anything that was not explicitly agreed should not have been assumed. (Yes, it probably does seem a little unreasonable but that is not really ground for complaint.)

Where you stand is very clearly set out in the NRCoC and the Railway Byelaws: arrive at the station in good time and buy a ticket before boarding. You might have an argument if queuing time is excessive at the origin station in order to buy a ticket but that is not the case here.

richardtheblue said:
2) Second, as above, it appears lots of people ask to buy on board like we do, so this is an important question that affects many people.

And the same answer applies to everyone. The fact that services are every 10 minutes along that line really should give no excuse to not purchase a ticket before boarding under normal circumstances.

richardtheblue said:
3) Finally, and most importantly, my wife was really upset by the incident. She feels that the guard was 'shouting rudely' at her in front of many other passengers. Whilst I wasn't there, I know my wife well(!), and she would go out of her way to avoid creating (or being part of) a scene. From her account this guard was, to quote an earlier poster 'a knob', who behaved in an completely unacceptable manner. Almost all the London Midland guards (from whom we regularly buy tickets) seem very friendly people, and this guard is letting down all his colleagues, and should not be allowed to continue in his position unless he changes his attitude. But how are London Midland to know if no-one complains?

If the guard truly behaved in an unacceptable manner then by all means write in and complain, as that definitely needs dealing with.

Then again as human beings when we are upset, we can become particularly sensitive so it might also be a case that there was nothing in it really. It is human nature. However if you are happy with your wife's account then there is definitely grounds for complaint.

richardtheblue said:
The reason I asked on here was I wanted to know the actual legal position for this situation. In particular, I thought I remember seeing a document which explicitly stated that *if you are given permission* to board a train without a ticket, then you can buy from the full range of tickets on board, and I hoped someone would provide this - since no-one has, I guess I must have imagined it.

If you seek permission before boarding, then it all comes down to discretion. There is no automatic right to purchasing onboard in your circumstance, however if a member of staff agrees to something, then they should honour it otherwise it would be legally dubious.

Unfortunately in this instance, as far as selling the correct ticket onboard is concerned, you have no cause for complaint.

richardtheblue said:
That is, if you have staff permission to board without a ticket (which my wife did), then you should only pay the fare you would have paid at the ticket office (i.e. railcards should be allowed). Correct or not?

Again, you seem to overlook the fact that there was no excessive queuing time at the origin station.

richardtheblue · 2 May 2013

Surely if the trains are every 10 minutes, there shouldn't really be a problem of waiting for the next one? The obligation as a passenger is to arrive at the station in good time to purchase a ticket and then catch your train so arriving at the station just as the train pulls in is not "in good time".

Yes, certainly we have no problem with waiting for the next train - my wife said that if she'd known she wouldn't be able to use a railcard then she would have done so. But given that almost all guards are happy to sell tickets onboard if you ask permission, with all the applicable discounts, we will continue to do so, just with a more precise wording of our requests. Especially since the common brief delays on this line mean that the trains come essentially at random, so it's not simply a case of allowing a couple of minutes extra.

I thought that the legal position was that if you are given permission to board a train without a ticket, then the full range of tickets should be available to purchase on board (I don't see that whether there is a queue or not is relevant here). I still think that this *should* be the case, but, having taken in the various comments on this thread, it does seem that this is not so (and I'm sure we can all name many things we think should be different in railway regulations!)

I think we will still be making a complaint for the reason given in my previous post (see how my wife feels about it in a few days time), but I do accept the logic of the arguments backing the guards position, and the case for us being in the wrong. You live and learn (and it's not like it cost much anyway).

Thanks again for all responses.

furlong · 2 May 2013

richardtheblue said:
Another source - not official, but showing at least that this is a big area of uncertainty:

From: http://conversation.which.co.uk/transport-travel/travelling-without-a-train-ticket-too-complicated/

And even that article only tells part of the story...

They are numerous "grey" areas here where the industry does not seem to be able to form a consistent view for all sorts of reasons. As a passenger, you're left to fall back upon reproduced statements of legal/contractual requirements and then, if you're lucky, a little additional information about how some companies have chosen to interpret them (which might be untested in court). Numerous predictable situations are left to "discretion" and handled differently from case to case.

Take queueing for example, mentioned in the piece you linked to. How long can a queue be before you're allowed to travel without a ticket and pay later? Does it make a difference if your departure station is gated? [It shouldn't do, but...] If queues get too long, how often do you see revenue protection staff notified and people allowed to travel and buy their tickets later? [Read what the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement says about monitoring queues.] What happens with long queues at ticket machines at unmanned stations? [Undocumented?] Must such a ticket machine be used whether or not it can issue the precise ticket you require and accept the payment method you prefer? [People hold nuanced/conflicting views.] And has a passenger ever been penalised or even prosecuted in circumstances where an apparent breach of the TSA could have been the main contributing factor? [Tough luck. Independent enforcement regimes.] Etc. etc.

bb21 · 2 May 2013

richardtheblue said:
Yes, certainly we have no problem with waiting for the next train - my wife said that if she'd known she wouldn't be able to use a railcard then she would have done so. But given that almost all guards are happy to sell tickets onboard if you ask permission, with all the applicable discounts, we will continue to do so, just with a more precise wording of our requests. Especially since the common brief delays on this line mean that the trains come essentially at random, so it's not simply a case of allowing a couple of minutes extra.

The thing is that allowing passengers to purchase onboard is down to discretion. This is not an automatic right. It doesn't matter how often this discretion is used it is still discretion. I am not sure that agreeing to allow her to purchase onboard is the same as allowing her to purchase with a discount onboard. Yes, asking a more precise question next time will undoubtedly help, but AFAIK there is nothing to compel a guard to sell a ticket with discount onboard if permission is not explicitly given.

The fact that the trains are often a few minutes late is neither here nor there. If you arrived at the station in good time, you should have sufficient time to purchase a ticket before boarding. The fact that there is an earlier departure which was slightly delayed does not absolve the passenger of his obligations.

richardtheblue said:
I thought that the legal position was that if you are given permission to board a train without a ticket, then the full range of tickets should be available to purchase on board (I don't see that whether there is a queue or not is relevant here). I still think that this *should* be the case, but, having taken in the various comments on this thread, it does seem that this is not so (and I'm sure we can all name many things we think should be different in railway regulations!)

The key is seeking permission before boarding, and if permission is not explicitly granted you cannot just assume things, which is supposedly what went wrong in your wife's case. As I said, I am not aware of any legal obligations from the guard to sell discounted ticket if the agreement was to allow your wife to board and sell her a ticket, harsh as it might seem.

There is a difference if a person seeks permission to buy onboard because of excessive queues. The guard would be fully aware that as the passenger is unable to use the ticket office, he therefore acts almost as an alternative to the ticket office therefore the full range of tickets should be available. In your wife's case, this is much less clear cut.

There are probably many things that should be different, but we can only deal with what is in front of us at the moment.

richardtheblue said:
I think we will still be making a complaint for the reason given in my previous post (see how my wife feels about it in a few days time), but I do accept the logic of the arguments backing the guards position, and the case for us being in the wrong. You live and learn (and it's not like it cost much anyway).

Thanks again for all responses.

I think really if you want to be certain as to where you stand, you only have two real options: ask the right questions, or buy a ticket before boarding like everyone else in other parts of the country.

island · 2 May 2013

furlong said:
Got to be careful with that comparison though: there are subtle differences. If there was an open ticket office, yes, staff tickets must be bought before boarding.

I think you've entirely missed the point of Mojo's post.

To the OP: what do you expect to get out of making a complaint? If I were LM, I would be finding out who the guard was and giving him a talking-to for not telling the passenger to buy at the station, rather than anything else.

High Dyke · 2 May 2013

Eagle said:
How was the guard supposed to know she wanted a railcard-discounted ticket when first she asked? He gave the correct answer given the information he knew.

Exactly. How many times have people asked "does this train go to....?" And then state they are only travelling to... a station en-route. If people ask the correct question they would (hopefully) get the correct answer. I used to get this all the time when driving buses. The people that issue tickets are not mind readers...

Flamingo · 2 May 2013

Interesting thread, however, if the OP does 200+ journeys a year, would a season ticket be worth considering?

Regarding the complaint, by all means, it's his right - but guards talk to each other, it could result in lots of guards changing their attitude regarding selling tickets on board from that station. If I heard one of my colleagues saying that a regular passenger had complained over something like this, I would certainly not be inclined to give them an inch in the future.

If there is a train every ten minutes, then, in my opinion, the OP and his Mrs have no excuse not to buy before boarding (ignoring all the spurious posts about missed connections) it's up to the OP and family to get their own act together.

It sounds like it's about time the relevant RPI's started focusing on a certain station...

jb · 2 May 2013

I agree that complaining seems more likely to make the OP's lot worse, rather than better, in the long run. I would also suggest that many in the OP('s wife's) position would have let this go with a shrug and a puff of the cheeks. I really don't think it's anything to have got worked up about.

That said, on the evidence we have the guard was being a bit of a nob here and even if they had said something like "the rules state I can't sell railcard discounted tickets on board, sorry I didn't make that clear, madam", which would have cost them absolutely nothing, we wouldn't have a thread here.

Plenty of false equivalences being drawn with situations where the customer really asked the wrong question, too.

Darandio · 2 May 2013

jb said:
I agree that complaining seems more likely to make the OP's lot worse, rather than better, in the long run. I would also suggest that many in the OP('s wife's) position would have let this go with a shrug and a puff of the cheeks. I really don't think it's anything to have got worked up about.

I'd agree, but only because the trains are so regular there is actually no excuse for being late or buying a ticket before boarding, it's just the usual case of seeing the train and saying "I want that one".

This is what baffles me...

richardtheblue said:
Since the trains are every 10 minutes, for around 20% of these journeys there is not time to buy a ticket before boarding the train.

That makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you have arrived too late for the current train, you can just buy a ticket and board the next one, there is ample time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

High Dyke said:
How many times have people asked "does this train go to....?" And then state they are only travelling to... a station en-route.

I see this regularly, even as a passenger, often at Darlington.

[C] What time is the train to Sheffield due?
It's due at xxxx, currently running around 20 minutes late.
[C] Oh dear, I am due for a meeting in York in 45 minutes.
York? I thought you were going to Sheffield?
[C] No, York, I normally get on the train to Sheffield.
~~In that case, there are three trains due before that one, one is due right now in fact, if you go over to platform 1 now you will catch it.~~

pemma · 2 May 2013

Darandio said:
I see this regularly, even as a passenger, often at Darlington.

[C] What time is the train to Sheffield due?
It's due at xxxx, currently running around 20 minutes late.
[C] Oh dear, I am due for a meeting in York in 45 minutes.
York? I thought you were going to Sheffield?
[C] No, York, I normally get on the train to Sheffield.
~~In that case, there are three trains due before that one, one is due right now in fact, if you go over to platform 1 now you will catch it.~~

I wonder if that's why some station staff give you more information than you asked for.

I was at Sheffield one day when the information screens were down so I asked a member of staff which platform the Virgin Trains (as it was at the time) Newcastle service was due to depart from. He told me what I asked for in addition to the scheduled departure and arrival times and calling points!

island · 2 May 2013

Darandio said:
I'd agree, but only because the trains are so regular there is actually no excuse for being late or buying a ticket before boarding, it's just the usual case of seeing the train and saying "I want that one".

This is what baffles me...

That makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you have arrived too late for the current train, you can just buy a ticket and board the next one, there is ample time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I see this regularly, even as a passenger, often at Darlington.

[C] What time is the train to Sheffield due?
It's due at xxxx, currently running around 20 minutes late.
[C] Oh dear, I am due for a meeting in York in 45 minutes.
York? I thought you were going to Sheffield?
[C] No, York, I normally get on the train to Sheffield.
~~In that case, there are three trains due before that one, one is due right now in fact, if you go over to platform 1 now you will catch it.~~

~~And EC trains are nicer anyway!~~

richardtheblue · 2 May 2013

Thank you for the further replies.

Since the trains are every 10 minutes, for around 20% of these journeys there is not time to buy a ticket before boarding the train.

Click to expand...

That makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you have arrived too late for the current train, you can just buy a ticket and board the next one, there is ample time.

Indeed, sorry if I have been unclear. I am *not* trying to assert that there is any kind of right to buy a ticket on the train if you don't have time beforehand. London Midland, or their staff, can entirely reasonably insist that no tickets are sold on board, or that only undiscounted tickets are sold on board. In which case we will, as required, wait for the next train.

However, if you don't have time to buy a ticket (through your own fault), surely it is not unreasonable to *ask permission* to buy a ticket on board, and if the guard agrees, then they should sell you one. The question (and dispute in this case) is about the wording used, and exactly what the guard has agreed to following this.

The reason I made the comment above was to explain why we regularly are in this position - the comment that we need to 'get [our] own act together' seems a bit harsh.

Interesting thread, however, if the OP does 200+ journeys a year, would a season ticket be worth considering?

Thanks for the tip - we bear this in mind and buy monthly tickets when it is cheaper. But it was 100-200 journeys per year between us (mainly off peak), so normally it is not worth it. Of course, an added advantage of a season ticket is not having to worry about this sort of thing, but that's not worth the increased cost.

It sounds like it's about time the relevant RPI's started focusing on a certain station...

Perhaps they should; ticket checks on trains are very rare round here. However, I don't see that this is relevant here - how would the presence of an RPI have made any difference?

I agree that complaining seems more likely to make the OP's lot worse, rather than better, in the long run. I would also suggest that many in the OP('s wife's) position would have let this go with a shrug and a puff of the cheeks. I really don't think it's anything to have got worked up about.

That said, on the evidence we have the guard was being a bit of a nob here and even if they had said something like "the rules state I can't sell railcard discounted tickets on board, sorry I didn't make that clear, madam", which would have cost them absolutely nothing, we wouldn't have a thread here.

On reflection, I tend to agree with you - this was probably an overreaction, and complaining may well work out negatively in the long run. But my wife was very upset by the situation and the way she was treated, and naturally I am partial to that.

How was the guard supposed to know she wanted a railcard-discounted ticket when first she asked? He gave the correct answer given the information he knew.

I still maintain that in context, the natural interpretation of 'can I buy a ticket on the train' is to mean 'from the full range of tickets'. And if there was any doubt, the guard could have said 'only undiscounted tickets', for example. But clearly you and others disagree, so fair enough.

I think really if you want to be certain as to where you stand, you only have two real options: ask the right questions, or buy a ticket before boarding like everyone else in other parts of the country.

The final part of this comment is interesting - these things really do seem to vary around the country. Here it just seems to be the done thing to ask the guard to sell you a ticket on board if you don't have time beforehand. For example, I sat at the back of the train to work this morning (with a ticket from the machine!). At Northfield five people asked to buy a ticket onboard, and formed a little queue on the train; two more joined them at Kings Norton. All were sold tickets.

As I said above, I'm not trying to claim that passengers have any right to do this, just pointing out that it seems pretty standard practice around here (it's not just us being awkward sods!)

Anyway, thanks again for all your responses and comments - it may be time to let this rest.

Harpers Tate · 10 May 2013

Surely the sole reason for the "penalties" that apply when boarding without a ticket at a station with facilities ("penalties" including any higher fare than that would otherwise have been paid) is to limit revenue loss/fare evasion. And surely it is those who make even a passive attempt to avoid paying that should be so penalised.

In this case (as described), the passenger clearly made herself known to the traincrew even BEFORE boarding and was clearly making no attempt at all to avoid payment.

Regardless of the frequency of the service or other factors at play here, surely the guard was well off the mark as regards the INTENT of the railway rules, even if he was within the letter of same. Personally, I'd call that very, very bad practice indeed.

185 · 12 May 2013

For many years, there was an element of discretion, especially in common sense cases where a passenger has approached the guard before boarding. Nowadays, train companies remove most of that discretion from traincrew and in almost all cases they must sell only the most expensive standard or open fare without discount. Staff breaching that rule could receive remedial or disciplinary action.

Her argument or complaint is certainly not with the guard, it is with the Commercial Director of LM, and the other operators' directors who impose these policies.

Harpers Tate · 12 May 2013

If that's true then
a) it's very wrong thinking by "Management"; and
b) the guard in the described case should have been much more explicit than the story tells in what he could (or would) do once the customer was onboard.

snail · 12 May 2013

Flamingo said:
Interesting thread, however, if the OP does 200+ journeys a year, would a season ticket be worth considering?

No, because, generally speaking, the railcard discount is at least equivalent to the season ticket fare and often lower.

What I don't get with the criticism of the conductor here is how is he expected to know the passenger might have a railcard? If the train is about to leave his mind will be on other things - like getting the train off on time - not on explaining the full range of tickets he is allowed to offer on train. I've heard the same conversation several times on Virgin trains, often with the response "but the last person gave me the discount".

I don't have a lot of sympathy here for the OP's wife. If it's happened before and is an established policy - I suspect LM will have explained that they only offer non-discounted tickets on train (I know TPE and Virgin do) - then a regular traveller has no excuse. But customers frequently hear only what they want to hear.

Flamingo · 12 May 2013

Of course, the passenger in question is now a lot less likely to board without a ticket, so the objective has been realised, in one sense!

Bungle73 · 12 May 2013

I'm sorry but all this "the passenger didn't ask the 'correct' question" business is complete nonsense. The question asked, "Can I buy a ticket on board" is one any sensible person would ask - and one that should have received a sensible answer. I see no reason to start detailing the exact ticket one requires at that point as it is irrelevant; either the guard is going to let you or he won't. The guard was being deliberately misleading imo, and for people here to try and defend that is not on.

snail · 12 May 2013

Bungle73 said:
The guard was being deliberately misleading imo, and for people here to try and defend that is not on.

You really think the guard has deliberately failed to mention it? That's indefensible.

Bungle73 · 12 May 2013

snail said:
You really think the guard has deliberately failed to mention it? That's indefensible.

I do, yes. He knew exactly what he was saying, and said in such a way that it would catch the person out.

If that were me I would have demanded that he sell me the ticket that I wanted, and would put in a complaint to the TOC in question about being lied to by a member of their staff - because that's basically what it was.

snail · 12 May 2013

I must try that tomorrow when I get a TPE or Virgin train. Not that I have a railcard, but how is the conductor to know?

Bungle73 · 12 May 2013

snail said:
I must try that tomorrow when I get a TPE or Virgin train. Not that I have a railcard, but how is the conductor to know?

Um, they could ask. But this guard said "yes" to a direct question, and then started adding on other conditions afterwards when the person was already on the train. That smacks of underhandedness to me.

Flamingo · 12 May 2013

Going back to the OP, no mention was made of railcards by the passenger in the original question, so they were sold the ticket they asked for, in my opinion.

My answer when asked "Can I buy my ticket on board?", depends on what station we are at and where the passenger is going to, but I will often say "Full price only", which discourages some.

Bungle73 · 12 May 2013

Flamingo said:
Going back to the OP, no mention was made of railcards by the passenger in the original question, so they were sold the ticket they asked for, in my opinion.

No mention was made that the guard would be an arse either, but he was. How the hell anyone in their right mind can twist this round to a mistake by the passenger I have no idea. The guard was asked a direct question: "Can I buy a ticket on the train". His answer was "yes", so he should have sold any ticket that was requested that was valid on that train.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that ****es people off about the railways.

You know what, when I think the railways need defending from people I will defend them, but in this case I think they...or at least this particular guard.....are wrong...so wrong, and I will say so. And I'm sure all right-minded people will agree with me...or at least those without an agenda.

Permission to buy on board train

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