Pendolino Refurbishment?

starrymarkb · 5 May 2013

junglejames said:
Its all down to how Alstom design their tilting stock. Not helped by the fact they are aluminium construction of course.

Bendy Pendies have frames running the length of the coaches, directly above and below the windows. These are what stops the windows being any taller.

That was the case, it gave lots of strength for less weight. The 'New' Pendolino (2010 models onwards) do have Voyager Style windows so it appears that Alstom have ditched Fiat's construction methods. (of course Follow on orders will be built to the old design)

Remember that NR are very sensitive to weight and axle loads, and would rather trains were built lighter then to upgrade the track. Remember that an ICE1 *trailer* tips the scales at nearly 60t! The ICE-T is a Pendolino with Bombardier bodywork and Siemens traction, all the Tilt and Running gear is Alstom supplied. The units are no lightweights either, so much so that the second batch were put on a diet to reduce weight with a bistro instead restaurant and the loss of the ICE's trademark ribbon glazing.

RailUK Forums

Dave1987 · 6 May 2013

RichmondCommu said:
As I recall your original point was that some of the airline style seats don't match up with the windows. Matching up seats with windows would surely reduce the number of seats which can only be a bad thing.

In terms of the shop, as I never buy food and drink on the train (even with my business account) I would agree that this is a waste but clearly other customers do buy provisions on the train. In terms of the drink dispenser this makes sense as it's more convenient for customers.

Finally, regarding first class Virgin make a lot of money from first class customers during the week and they are not going to change something that makes money. I would agree that on some services four first class carriages is excessive but with permanent formations this not going to change.

In all fairness I don't think you would ever find a Virgin customer who would prioritise having a seat with a view over no seat at all. Not to mention that the wonderful Pendolinos are fast and safe. As a traveller what more could you want?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In all fairness though, for many customers the fact that they can't see out the window is very low down on their list of priorities. In fact from my own personal experience many don't even notice.

How do you know that they don't care? I'm sure if you actually asked many passengers if they would like a window many would say they would. I'm genuinely surprised that you actually seem to prefer not to have a window. Out of curiosity if have a windows and being able to see out is very low down on your priorities what is high on your priorities?

8J · 6 May 2013

Dave1987 said:
How do you know that they don't care? I'm sure if you actually asked many passengers if they would like a window many would say they would. I'm genuinely surprised that you actually seem to prefer not to have a window. Out of curiosity if have a windows and being able to see out is very low down on your priorities what is high on your priorities?

My priorities are getting to my destination on time and if something does go wrong that is outside of the trains control (Grayrigg), hoping that the train will hold up well in a crash.

I really dont care how big the window is and I actually think that the window size on the 390's is fine and sometimes, the small size is good, especially when the sun is setting in your eyes.

I think that if your priorities are how big a window is, then you should go to Everest windows instead of on a train...

Dave1987 · 6 May 2013

jtd508110 said:
My priorities are getting to my destination on time and if something does go wrong that is outside of the trains control (Grayrigg), hoping that the train will hold up well in a crash.

I really dont care how big the window is and I actually think that the window size on the 390's is fine and sometimes, the small size is good, especially when the sun is setting in your eyes.

I think that if your priorities are how big a window is, then you should go to Everest windows instead of on a train...

Well I would say if your idea of a nice train is a metal tube with no windows because you are afraid of sunlight then maybe you need to get outside more anyway enough with the insults.....

Besides new trains are now coming with sun blinds.

I might also point out that it is possible to provide big windows with blinds for those of us who are odd and like natural light and to see the world going by and still provide facilities for media devices like power sockets and wifi.

I actually think it is quite selfish to say that there should be small windows if any windows at all just because you don't like natural light!

cjmillsnun · 6 May 2013

Dave1987 said:
Well I would say if your idea of a nice train is a metal tube with no windows because you are afraid of sunlight then maybe you need to get outside more anyway enough with the insults.....

Besides new trains are now coming with sun blinds.

I might also point out that it is possible to provide big windows with blinds for those of us who are odd and like natural light and to see the world going by and still provide facilities for media devices like power sockets and wifi.

I actually think it is quite selfish to say that there should be small windows if any windows at all just because you don't like natural light!

I have to agree. I'm going north later this year and am lucky that the route is on the ECML. I'm going to book an HST seat because I love the nice big windows on the Mk3. Part of the joy of travelling by train is the ability to sit and watch the world go by.

LNW-GW Joint · 6 May 2013

Dave1987 said:
On the 168, they are not noisy at all, they have very comfy wide seats, plenty of luggage space and decent sized overhead racks. They also have the must have luxury of power sockets and wifi.

Are you suggesting 168s for Euston-Glasgow?
390s have an indefineable ambience which "eats up the miles".
Something to do with ride quality and ambient noise levels I think.
Mk3s and 4s come close but 168s seem well down the list to me in comparison.
I'd say both are well suited to the routes they operate.

Manchester77 · 6 May 2013

Why does every single thread about 390s get hijacked by some person who is content on just arguing about how 'bad' they are based on the fact some of the seats don't have a window view. Please stop this thread is about their refurbishment

Geezertronic · 6 May 2013

Manchester77 said:
Why does every single thread about 390s get hijacked by some person who is content on just arguing about how 'bad' they are based on the fact some of the seats don't have a window view. Please stop this thread is about their refurbishment

It would appear that Dave1987 has an agenda to shout about and can't accept the fact that some people (i.e. the average work traveller such as me) don't have an issue as long as the trains get from A to B as quickly and safely as possible. I've never been delayed by a 390 problem, not to say they don't happen of course.

As far as the refurb goes, as long as they get rid of the rattling air-con (?) then I'll be happy.

Manchester77 · 6 May 2013

Indeed and I'd thought that they'd replace the AC with a new one as they have no windows that open

Aictos · 6 May 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
Are you suggesting 168s for Euston-Glasgow?
390s have an indefineable ambience which "eats up the miles".
Something to do with ride quality and ambient noise levels I think.
Mk3s and 4s come close but 168s seem well down the list to me in comparison.
I'd say both are well suited to the routes they operate.

I think 168s for Euston to Glasgow is a non starter HOWEVER if Cross Country were able to get some 3/4 car 172s with a 168 interior or upgrade their existing 170s to a 168 interior then I think they would be on a winner.

I mean if I had the choice of a Chiltern 168 on loan working Birmingham to Stansted or a XC 170, the 168 would win all the time simply because it has wifi, comfy seats and power points.

Also because I don't think the Ely to Birmingham route will see overheads anytime soon, the DMUs will be around for many more years hence we need to provide a better interior for them.

We have to look at the bigger picture what might suit one route might not suit another, 444s might be good for Weymouth to Waterloo but are they suitable for Euston to Manchester?

ainsworth74 · 6 May 2013

HLE 13 said:
I mean if I had the choice of a Chiltern 168 on loan working Birmingham to Stansted or a XC 170, the 168 would win all the time simply because it has wifi, comfy seats and power points.

Those are all things that could be fitted in a refurbishment rather than being exclusive to 168s...

Dave1987 · 6 May 2013

Geezertronic said:
It would appear that Dave1987 has an agenda to shout about and can't accept the fact that some people (i.e. the average work traveller such as me) don't have an issue as long as the trains get from A to B as quickly and safely as possible. I've never been delayed by a 390 problem, not to say they don't happen of course.

As far as the refurb goes, as long as they get rid of the rattling air-con (?) then I'll be happy.

How am I hijacking a thread? It's a discussion about pendo's, just because everyone doesn't have the same opinion as you about them. When I am a passenger on a train I am just your average traveller as well. I am someone who wants a modern comfortable train where I can sit and watch the world go by. Just because I'm not sat watching my ipad why should I be penalised? Pendo's are the only modern train that don't offer a decent sized windows. Funny that every other TOC in the country is able to offer both! I think that virgin probably went for the cheap option.

Manchester77 · 6 May 2013

Erm because this thread is about pendolino refurbishment not window size...

Zoe · 6 May 2013

Dave1987 said:
I think that virgin probably went for the cheap option.

140 mph tilting trains were required and the Pendolino (which had small windows even back in the late 1980s) could meet that specification. What else was on offer at the time the new trains were required for the WCML?

Chris125 · 6 May 2013

starrymarkb said:
Remember that NR are very sensitive to weight and axle loads, and would rather trains were built lighter then to upgrade the track.

It's not about 'upgrading the track' but how Network Rail charge operators for it's maintenance - generally speaking the higher the axle load the more they pay per vehicle per mile.

Chris

STEVIEBOY1 · 6 May 2013

MCW said:
probably 4 or 5 at my guess?

What routes would the "Baby Pendo's" operate on. I think the London ones have had extra carriages added. They want longer trains, not shorter.

SkinnyDave · 6 May 2013

Birmingham to Scotland routes primarily then depends they are looking at replacing all Voyagers with Baby units and using new Vossloh locos to drag them on mon wired routes.

The Modern railways piece mentions that there are discussions about Manchester to Scotland being passed over to ICWC after Northern/TPE franchises are at an end.
Baby Pendos would be used for this work I would have thought

Lrd · 6 May 2013

SkinnyDave said:
Birmingham to Scotland routes primarily then depends they are looking at replacing all Voyagers with Baby units and using new Vossloh locos to drag them on mon wired routes.

The Modern railways piece mentions that there are discussions about Manchester to Scotland being passed over to ICWC after Northern/TPE franchises are at an end.
Baby Pendos would be used for this work I would have thought

Also for Blackpool routes if Virgin ever make it there, iirc.

Manchester77 · 6 May 2013

Off topic but on a warm summers day would 6 carriages be enough for a Blackpool train?

snail · 6 May 2013

Dave1987 said:
How am I hijacking a thread? It's a discussion about pendo's, just because everyone doesn't have the same opinion as you about them.

Because of all the things you could possibly do at a refurbishment installing bigger windows and aligning seats would be at the very bottom, somewhere between "Highly Impractical" and "Impossible".

Personally, as a regular Pendolino user I'm not that bothered about the window size. I prefer the extra room of aisle seats and I usually have something to read or work on so staring out of the window for a couple of hours isn't on my list of 'must do' items. I do try my best to avoid the non-window seats but in winter it doesn't really matter. I actually quite like the airline seats which are 1/2 and 1/2 (E63 is a good one) as you get a window and a coat hook that doesn't get in the way.

MCR247 · 6 May 2013

Dave1987 said:
Funny that every other TOC in the country is able to offer both! I think that virgin probably went for the cheap option.

Yeah I think Virgin definitely did because I'm sure they were in complete control of the order process and had no-one to answer and no-one else was involved

snail · 6 May 2013

MCR247 said:
Yeah I think Virgin definitely did because I'm sure they were in complete control of the order process and had no-one to answer and no-one else was involved

Just how many 140mph tilting trains were available at the time Virgin ordered the Pendolinos?

Geezertronic · 6 May 2013

Dave1987 said:
How am I hijacking a thread?

As previous posters have mentioned, this is not a window size thread. There have been many (and I mean many) of those before, use the search function to find them.

Also as mentioned by previous posters before, how many other 140mph tilting trains that fitted the UK loading guage were available at the time the 390s were ordered? And if every standard class seat was to match a window then what percentage of seats per 9 or 11 car set would be lost due to this? Whilst they are not everyones cuppa tea, what would the West Coast be like without them?

Anyway back on topic, as long as the rattles go I'll be happy.

pablo · 6 May 2013

They'll do. Some peeps don't know they are born. I've been using Pendos weekly for seven years and not complaining.
Ah remember when we used to do it in LMS corridor stock behind a Duchess at a steady 60 mph. Four hours Euston to Liverpool. Ah, the smell of steam... and soot. You wished there were no windows then. :roll:

Eagle · 6 May 2013

lewisrday said:
Also for Blackpool routes if Virgin ever make it there, iirc.

Virgin should start serving Blackpool again at the December timetable (although obviously it'll have to be Voyagers until the wires get there a couple of years later).

Bakerbloke · 6 May 2013

I'm currently travelling standard class on a Pendo. I don't normally travel on these trains - usualIy I am on East Coast. I have found the carriage has excessive vibration at the higher speeds with windows rattling and the ceiling vibrating with my body feeling every imperfection in the railway line. Sometimes feels like I am skimming the earths atmosphere. I can't remember vibration being an issue many years ago. So does the refurbishment include replacing the shock absorbers?

RichmondCommu · 6 May 2013

Dave1987 said:
How do you know that they don't care? I'm sure if you actually asked many passengers if they would like a window many would say they would.

Every so often my in-laws travel down from Lancashire in order to spend a week or two with my family and I. They are in their late 60's / early 70's and yet they are far more interested in the contents of their tablets / Kindles than they want to look out the window. And in terms of their age group they are far from alone in this respect. The same goes for the rest of my extended family that live in the NW aged between 18 to 40ish.

Dave1987 said:
I'm genuinely surprised that you actually seem to prefer not to have a window.

Dave, I have far more interesting things to do on my regular journeys from London to the NW. My employers have offices in Cheshire and Manchester and I spend at least one day a week up north. On the way up I'm preparing for the day ahead, on my return I'm replying to emails, sorting out our Tesco delivery and other family related stuff. All far more important / interesting than gawping out the window.

The same goes for visits to my wife's family in the NW. Conversations with my wife and kids are far more interesting than what's happening in the Trent Valley. Not to mention my wife's obsession with celeb magazines / Cosmo and my children with Facebook, Snapchat and Twitter. Yes I agree it’s all very banal but that’s teenagers for you.

Dave1987 said:
Out of curiosity if have a windows and being able to see out is very low down on your priorities what is high on your priorities?

My first priority is safety. After that its speed, reliability and comfort. And you know what those wonderful Pendolinos win every time. Yes they have one or two minor faults but at the same time I find TGV's to be uncomfortable. Give me a Pendolino over another Intercity train every day of the week.

MidnightFlyer · 6 May 2013

Manchester77 said:
Off topic but on a warm summers day would 6 carriages be enough for a Blackpool train?

With an the other 4tph from Preston to North and the hourly South service, coupled with what I suspect will be not that great a demand from West Coast stations further south (i.e. Euston and Warrington; Wigan also has the hourly Northern train) I'd say so, yes. No point in carrying about a load of fresh air for 210 miles just to slightly relieve on the last 20 IMO.

Manchester77 · 6 May 2013

Yeah good point I never thought of that. Also I can't imagine lots of people doing beach day trips to Blackpool when they have Ramsgate, Brighton, Hastings etc which they can get to in an hour or so.

STEVIEBOY1 · 7 May 2013

pablo said:
They'll do. Some peeps don't know they are born. I've been using Pendos weekly for seven years and not complaining.

Ah remember when we used to do it in LMS corridor stock behind a Duchess at a steady 60 mph. Four hours Euston to Liverpool. Ah, the smell of steam... and soot. You wished there were no windows then. :roll:

That sounds great, pity that does not happen now, the smell of the steam/smoke and sooty effects all part of the journey.

Oh well we can dream.

Pendolino Refurbishment?

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