Which TOC/ route has the worst fare evasion?

p123 said:

Either way, I'm of the firm belief that ticket gates are the way forward. If every station was gated - London Underground style, with one entrance/exit and ticket office - there would be no fare evasion.

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Apart from where people buy two cheap tickets for each end of the journey.

How would that work though? There would be no ticket buying facilities within the gated zone, because everyone has to buy before they enter it. The only place to buy is where you get on! Therefore, preventing that kinda thing.

p123 said:

How would that work though? There would be no ticket buying facilities within the gated zone, because everyone has to buy before they enter it. The only place to buy is where you get on! Therefore, preventing that kinda thing.

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It's possible to buy tickets in advance, or online, or have two season tickets bought at each end - you might need one single the first time you did it.

Northern tpe had lots of fare dodging tonight made worse by g4s blocking access to the ticket machine at Piccadilly and just letting people through...

Deerfold said:

Apart from where people buy two cheap tickets for each end of the journey.

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Or they tailgate somebody else, a common trick on LU

p123 said:

Either way, I'm of the firm belief that ticket gates are the way forward. If every station was gated - London Underground style, with one entrance/exit and ticket office - there would be no fare evasion.

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You're kidding me? There is still plenty of fare evasion on the Underground, even from and to barriered stations (a small number of stations are either partly or wholly ungated), with either, as 'Steve Ford' says, people doubling through, jumping over, use of counterfeit tickets, misuse of passes or tickets that allow discounted/free travel, use of a ticket/tickets to get through gates but does not cover the full journey length, and so on.

Steve Ford said:

I have occasionally seen a blitz at Elephant & Castle backed up by BTP because without them the local oiks will just tell RPI's to get lost (or worse) as your on train experience shows.

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At places like Elephant & Castle there is always the danger that challenging a ticketless traveller could be responded by 6 inch knife shoved in the stomach.

Not a nice place at all.

I'm probably right in thinking that there was a time when Connex South Central / Southern were reluctant to do ticket blocks at Balham for similar reasons.

12CSVT said:

At places like Elephant & Castle there is always the danger that challenging a ticketless traveller could be responded by 6 inch knife shoved in the stomach.

Not a nice place at all.

I'm probably right in thinking that there was a time when Connex South Central / Southern were reluctant to do ticket blocks at Balham for similar reasons.

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You might well be right about Balham and a BTP presence is essential otherwise yobs get away with it again and again.

I have seen the BTP, while on the Elephant ticket check, arresting someone for possession of drugs so presumably other crimes are detected at the same time.

I don't find Elephant to be so dangerous as stated above. I take the train to and from there daily and have never seen trouble or felt threatened. There is a great Colombian café culture by the main door. The other door goes in to the shopping centre, which is grotty but there are some good shops in there, a great new Chinese supermarket. I've been in and out at all hours the trains have been running.

big_dirt said:

I have seen the BTP, while on the Elephant ticket check, arresting someone for possession of drugs so presumably other crimes are detected at the same time.

I don't find Elephant to be so dangerous as stated above. I take the train to and from there daily and have never seen trouble or felt threatened. There is a great Colombian café culture by the main door. The other door goes in to the shopping centre, which is grotty but there are some good shops in there, a great new Chinese supermarket. I've been in and out at all hours the trains have been running.

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Yes BTP do sometimes have sniffer dogs for drug detection.

I've never felt threatened at E&C but there are some shady looking characters around there and the station is a bit hidden away down a backstreet, in fact some people don't even realise that there is a NR station there only LU.

Steve Ford said:

Yes BTP do sometimes have sniffer dogs for drug detection.

I've never felt threatened at E&C but there are some shady looking characters around there and the station is a bit hidden away down a backstreet, in fact some people don't even realise that there is a NR station there only LU.

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The backstreet itself is fairly busy though. There are the Colombian cafés, a taxi company, mechanics. I think it is unfortunate that the building works seem to have ground to a halt which means half the road is covered in hoardings so the road is a bit darker than normal. I wouldn't want anyone to be concerned about using the facilities because, in my opinion, they are no more or less dangerous than the next four stations along the Thameslink which I am familiar with.

p123 said:

May be selfish in choosing my local ToC, but I'd have to say it's a high chance it's Scotrail on their Glasgow suburban routes. Although, I think they know it themselves, hence the installation of all the ticket gates in the city centre.

There are few - genuinly very very few - occasions when I'm on a train on the North Clyde or Argyle Lines where I don't see kids/teenagers/young adults constantly walking up and down the train avoiding the ticket inspector. Often the toilets are constantly 'engaged' with people hiding from ticket inspectors, and I also often see people running off a train, along the platform and back on at the other end to avoid ticket checks.

Furthermore, around once a fortnight (on average) I see people lying about which station they've boarded at when purchasing tickets.

I've also seen neds (Scottish 'chavs') simply say to ticket inspectors that they've not got any money, and won't be paying.

The whole situation on N. Clyde and Argyle is a disgrace at the moment with regards to fare evasion - although I'm sure my frustration is nothing compared to what the staff have to put up with. I really wish Scotrail would make all the stations on this route like LU with one entrance and exit with a ticket office and ticket gates!

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Here's your evidence of the Scottish neds... I think this video is rather disgusting how guards get treated on a day to day basis and very little gets done to support them. At the end of the day you know how it is, you retaliate to these type of people and you lose your job. Luckily there are guys like this about on the odd occasion.

Some may have seen it some may have not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKKADFIEX84

Deerfold said:

It's possible to buy tickets in advance, or online, or have two season tickets bought at each end - you might need one single the first time you did it.

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I take your point. Although, the type of person who my suggestion is aimed at really wouldn't be smart enough for sitting down and figuring out 'on paper' what tickets to buy to obtain a lower fare.

Mojo said:

You're kidding me? There is still plenty of fare evasion on the Underground, even from and to barriered stations (a small number of stations are either partly or wholly ungated), with either, as 'Steve Ford' says, people doubling through, jumping over, use of counterfeit tickets, misuse of passes or tickets that allow discounted/free travel, use of a ticket/tickets to get through gates but does not cover the full journey length, and so on.

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Maybe I shouldn't have said 'no' fare evasion. But it would be significantly reduced. I find tailgating unlikely to happen as much as on LU, as ScotRail's gates are pretty closely watched (and are quicker to close than LU, I've noticed). Counterfeit tickets, should they become widespread, will be surely be picked up on by the TOC and it quickly clamped down upon as well.

I still think evasion would be significantly reduced by gating all the stations though. I make around 15 journeys a week on this route. Out of those, I'd say just over half of them have kids/neds running down the train (or off the train and down the platform) to actively avoid a ticket check. Huge, huge problem.

Maybe a quick point for you to address given your counter arguments to my suggestion: how much do you think Glasgow Subway loses due to the reasons you've suggested? Say, as a percentage of total passengers, how many do you seriously think have evaded the fare, and how? This is the model they run - all stations gated, all stations staffed with ticket office overlooking a gateline. No inspections on train.

At the moment, the situation is that if they say "Bugger off" to the Guard/ATE/RPI and either stay sitting or walk off ( depending on location) the Rail Staff can effectively do nothing about it in line with their instructions from TOC's. BTP's effective view (in my experience) is that ticketing issues are basically nothing to do with them, and they view it as a quasi-civil issue, and do precious little about the individuals, apart from telling us to issue a UFN to a blatantly fake address.

TOC's allow this as they are much more afraid of complaints and delays, not to mention the exaggerated fear of legal action, than both the lost revenue, or the consequences of the anti-social behaviour that usually accompanies ticketless travel.

On 'The Tube' tv series LU staff kindly showed viewers how easy it is to tailgate another passengers and it makes no difference how quickly the gates close if you know how to keep them open.

tbtc said:

I'd say that PTE areas (where there are subsidised fares, so less incentive for the "Guard" to collect money) with stations close to each other and rolling stock like Pacers where the "Guard" is never far from the doors because they have to work the controls...

...in which case I'd suggest Sheffield to Meadowhall - no ticket barriers, no DOO, only a five minute journey... I've very rarely had a ticket checked between these two stations - so rare that I tend to remember when it happens.

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Normanton to Wakefield Kirkgate or Normanton to Cas Vegas also 'suffer' from the same issue