Rules regarding power socket usage

bicbasher · 22 May 2013

I was on a London Overground ELL Class 378 service today where a teenage passenger was using the power socket on the second carriage in the standing area to charge their Blackberry mobile phone.

As the East London line is DOO operated, there was no guard or Travel Safe officers to enforce any bylaws.

I've also seen power sockets on Southern 377s although I've never seen any passengers attempt to use them.

RailUK Forums

maniacmartin · 22 May 2013

There was a recent thread about this on RailUK, where it was mentioned that these power outlets are not regulated. I'm sure they'll learn when a spike or surge destroys their power adaptor.

(Also, was I the only one who read the title as PowerPoint, the overused presentation software)

Pumbaa · 22 May 2013

maniacmartin said:
(Also, was I the only one who read the title as PowerPoint, the overused presentation software)

Nope

bicbasher · 22 May 2013

Oops. Should have called them power sockets!

jnjkerbin · 22 May 2013

There are power sockets on Class 465s which still say something like "For the use of B.R. cleaning equipment only"!

Zoidberg · 22 May 2013

maniacmartin said:
...

(Also, was I the only one who read the title as PowerPoint, the overused presentation software)

Pumbaa said:
Nope

More 'nope'

I thought it might have been to do with its use in an interview or similar.

IanXC · 22 May 2013

maniacmartin said:
(Also, was I the only one who read the title as PowerPoint, the overused presentation software)

Fixified.

jnjkerbin said:
There are power sockets on Class 465s which still say something like "For the use of B.R. cleaning equipment only"!

So that will be not for use then? Or does someone have a stash of antique vacuum cleaners?!

Death · 22 May 2013

maniacmartin said:
There was a recent thread about this on RailUK, where it was mentioned that these power outlets are not regulated. I'm sure they'll learn when a spike or surge destroys their power adaptor.

So that's why they're often labelled "Not for public use", then?

I knew there had to be a good reason (Which is why I've never tried to use one myself) but it still seems odd to me that they use a standard UK 3-pin socket, as opposed to a proprietary or foreign one which far fewer people would be inclined to try using.

An Australian wall socket (For example) clearly labelled 240v would provide physical incompatibility with UK hardware whilst advising Australian visitors not to try using their appliances in it either. (IIRC, Australian standard mains voltage is 115v~) :idea:

(Could ye please post a link to the original thread? I'd be interested to read it.

)

jnjkerbin said:
There are power sockets on Class 465s which still say something like "For the use of B.R. cleaning equipment only"!

IanXC said:
So that will be not for use then? Or does someone have a stash of antique vacuum cleaners?!

If the sockets are unregulated and prone to spikes, it would still be safe to use basic electrical appliances with them. Most vacuum cleaners (Dysons being a possible exception) are little more than a motor wired in series with a power switch and a couple of thermocouples (As overheat cut-outs) so should work perfectly well on just about any input between 100 and 400v~!

Still, it's handy to know those are 13A unregulated. If ever I need to use a kettle on board a train, I'll know where best to plug it in! :lol:

rebmcr · 22 May 2013

jnjkerbin said:
There are power sockets on Class 465s which still say something like "For the use of B.R. cleaning equipment only"!

IanXC said:
So that will be not for use then? Or does someone have a stash of antique vacuum cleaners?!

Death said:
If the sockets are unregulated and prone to spikes, it would still be safe to use basic electrical appliances with them. Most vacuum cleaners (Dysons being a possible exception) are little more than a motor wired in series with a power switch and a couple of thermocouples (As overheat cut-outs) so should work perfectly well on just about any input between 100 and 400v~!

I think you may have missed the point that BR is not a thing any more. I would think that here is one of the more likely places for everyone to know basic electrics, too.

12CSVT · 22 May 2013

Any reason why they don't have covers over the power sockets which can be locked with a 'T' key or a 'BR1B' key to prevent unauthorised use ?

455driver · 22 May 2013

These sockets are for use when the train is stabled so the supply will be stable when its used for its intended purpose.

Why should the railway spend money protecting people (or at least their equipment) when they decide to ignore the warning signs and use them when the train is moving with all the inherent power surges etc.

TheEdge · 22 May 2013

12CSVT said:
Any reason why they don't have covers over the power sockets which can be locked with a 'T' key or a 'BR1B' key to prevent unauthorised use ?

I know on 170s (at least the GA ones) in the door control panel above the cleaner socket there is switch to turn on or off the socket, obviously that can only be got at with a T-Key.

At the end of the day they are labelled not for public use so if someone uses one and a surge destroys their gadget then its their fault and theirs alone.

Aictos · 22 May 2013

455driver said:
These sockets are for use when the train is stabled so the supply will be stable when its used for its intended purpose.

Why should the railway spend money protecting people (or at least their equipment) when they decide to ignore the warning signs and use them when the train is moving with all the inherent power surges etc.

Exactly, the way I see it is simple if these power plugs were meant for the public then they would have a sticker or sign saying so - saying not for public use I think is fairly obviously to all but the stupid :roll:

In any case, using it when it's clearly signed not for public use and you suffer a power surge which wrecks your electric item then you simply wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you were going to consider a claim, the courts would simply refuse to award damages to the claimant and you be laughed out of court.

johnnyp_360 · 22 May 2013

After seeing someone else charge their iPhone up on a Class 365 not so long ago, I thought I'd do it myself.
My phone got very warm, very quickly. Something tells me that this was a little bit more than 240V.
Lesson learned.

Death · 22 May 2013

rebmcr said:
I think you may have missed the point that BR is not a thing any more...

Ahh, I see the point now!

455driver said:
Why should the railway spend money protecting people (or at least their equipment) when they decide to ignore the warning signs and use them when the train is moving with all the inherent power surges etc.

Another good point well made there, sir! 8-)

TheKeymeister · 22 May 2013

In my last job, power sockets that had some form of restriction, e.g separately earthed, had a non-standard socket configuration, usually either Electrak or Walsall gauge. Seems like this would be an ideal application...

455driver · 22 May 2013

It will be 240V (roughly) when stabled, remember the voltage in the overhead can be quite low in a depot/major station compared to a mainline and a vaccuum cleaner wont be that bothered.

Belting along and the driver shuts off or the train going through a neutral section will push the voltage way up, well over 300V at least, I wouldnt plug anything of mine in there thats for sure.

YorkshireBear · 22 May 2013

rebmcr said:
I think you may have missed the point that BR is not a thing any more. I would think that here is one of the more likely places for everyone to know basic electrics, too.

Yes quite but i know nothing about electrics. Although i do know that you have to plug it in AND... (and this the key point) turn the socket on for anything to work.

I literally know nothing else so explanations like that are very useful don't be too judgemental. Its not that i am stupid either, it just civil engineers have no use for electric knowledge really and i failed electronics at school...

Deeps · 22 May 2013

Death said:
An Australian wall socket (For example) clearly labelled 240v would provide physical incompatibility with UK hardware whilst advising Australian visitors not to try using their appliances in it either. (IIRC, Australian standard mains voltage is 115v~)

Australia is 230VAC (nominal)

maniacmartin · 22 May 2013

As requested, here is the previous thread on this subject: A Lame Plug Socket Question (read post #18 and #51 onwards)

PaxVobiscum · 22 May 2013

maniacmartin said:
As requested, here is the previous thread on this subject: A Lame Plug Socket Question (read post #18 and #51 onwards)

Well, at least we managed 19 posts this time before the Plug Sockets appeared.

broadgage · 23 May 2013

johnnyp_360 said:
After seeing someone else charge their iPhone up on a Class 365 not so long ago, I thought I'd do it myself.
My phone got very warm, very quickly. Something tells me that this was a little bit more than 240V.
Lesson learned.

It is about 240 volts, and yes I have measured it !
Voltage and frequency vary a bit, and I suspect also an odd shaped waveform as from a cheap inverter.

Most modern appliances will tolerate this, but it is probably best not to risk it especialy for anything expensive.
I very doubt that the railway would take any action against anyone using this socket, though they certainly could if a notice tells you not too.

I suspect that the notice is primarily to protect the railway from claims for damaged equipment
Customer "I plugged my new XYZ into the socket on your train and now it does not work. Buy me a new one"
Railway "tough, you should not have used the socket, it is clearly marked as not being for public use"

Alternatively-
Customer "one customer hogged the socket for the entire journey and would not let me take a turn"
Railway "these sockets are not for public use and neither you, nor any other customer should use them"

Antman · 23 May 2013

bicbasher said:
I was on a London Overground ELL Class 378 service today where a teenage passenger was using the power socket on the second carriage in the standing area to charge their Blackberry mobile phone.

As the East London line is DOO operated, there was no guard or Travel Safe officers to enforce any bylaws.

I've also seen power sockets on Southern 377s although I've never seen any passengers attempt to use them.

I've seen this numerous times on various trains, on one occasion a member of staff (who was travelling as a passenger) politely advised somebody doing so that they were likely to damage their phone and they duly removed it.

pablo · 23 May 2013

"... then you simply wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you were going to consider a claim, the courts would simply refuse to award damages to the claimant and you be laughed out of court."
Consider the meaning and effect of "vicarious liability". A legal term.

The Barlow Boy · 23 May 2013

Deeps said:
Australia is 230VAC (nominal)

The U.K. pressure has been 220-230 for some time now.

Zoidberg · 23 May 2013

The Barlow Boy said:
The U.K. pressure has been 220-230 for some time now.

It didn't actually change - it was nominally 240V with a certain tolerance.

To harmonise with the EU the UK nominal voltage was re-stated as 230V, again with a certain tolerance, but one within which the original 240V and its tolerances broadly fits.

From Wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_in_the_United_Kingdom#Supply_voltage

Supply voltage

Since 1960, the supply voltage in UK domestic premises has been 240 V AC (RMS) at 50 Hz. In 1988, a Europe-wide agreement was reached to unify the various national voltages, which ranged at the time from 220 V to 240 V, to a common European standard of 230V (CENELEC Harmonization Document HD 472 S1:1988).

The standard nominal supply voltage in domestic single-phase 50 Hz installations in the UK is still 240V AC (RMS), but since 1 January 1995 (Electricity Supply Regulations, SI 1994, No. 3021) this has an asymmetric voltage tolerance of 230 V+10%−6% (253216.2 V), which covers the same voltage range as continental 220 V supplies to the new unified 230 V standard. This was supposed to be widened to 230 V ±10% (253207 V), but the time of this change has been put back repeatedly and as of December 2012 there is no definitive date.[5] The old standard was 240 V ±6% (254.4225.6 V), which is mostly contained within the new range, and so in practice suppliers have had no reason to actually change voltages.

LE Greys · 23 May 2013

johnnyp_360 said:
After seeing someone else charge their iPhone up on a Class 365 not so long ago, I thought I'd do it myself.
My phone got very warm, very quickly. Something tells me that this was a little bit more than 240V.
Lesson learned.

At least you learned it the easy way, I once tried to wire my 6V radio to the mains using a multi-voltage adapter, which I learned did not change voltages very well. It instantly stopped working and started emitting black smoke, and later ended up in the 'dead electrics' bin along with the adapter.

The sensible thing would be to retro-fit some form of key switch, like the ones on the 170s, so that passengers may be able to plug in, but not turn the power on.

class303 · 23 May 2013

455driver said:
It will be 240V (roughly) when stabled, remember the voltage in the overhead can be quite low in a depot/major station compared to a mainline and a vaccuum cleaner wont be that bothered.
.

excuse my ignorance but why would voltage be lower at a major station? don't you need more power when accelerating/setting off?

martybabes · 24 May 2013

pablo said:
"... then you simply wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you were going to consider a claim, the courts would simply refuse to award damages to the claimant and you be laughed out of court."
Consider the meaning and effect of "vicarious liability". A legal term.

I'm aware of the principle of vicarious liability but how does it apply here?
Are you suggesting the TOC would be liable for any failings of the TM to restrict the use of the socket? If so, I still think any claim for damage to electrical equipment would fail because of the disclaimer sign (and the sign being reasonable having regard to the circumstances in which it is displayed).

WillPS · 24 May 2013

If you make a habit of using these, invest in a couple of these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAPTOP-IN...Accessories_PowerSupplies&hash=item56517616f1

Rules regarding power socket usage

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