I couldn't agree more, the sooner we're out of the EU the better
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Nigel Farage
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I couldn't agree more, the sooner we're out of the EU the better
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A very good point indeed. All this talk of the EU's downfalls is fine, but where is the concrete plan going forward? Has UKIP published anything credible on this matter? I don't want soundbites or short sections in a manifesto, a lengthy analysis weighing up future options has to be provided.
We're not an emergent economy like Turkey, with lower labour costs and a great potential for manufacturing, the UK is an advanced economy that relies on services as the backbone of its economy.
Joining the EEA means, as transmanche says, having to take onboard many of the laws established by the EU but having absolutely no say in them whatsoever.
Leaving both the EU and EEA could lead to a Switzerland type of situation, where you end up spending much time establishing agreements with the EU in regard to virtually everything currently under their control. The local Cantons in Switzerland seem to spend an awful lot of time and money on administration, including on e.g. work papers for EU migrants who have the right to work there almost without restrictions.
Finally, it isn't really "modern" to go it alone is it? The UK isn't even the most populous country in Europe, neither is it a niche player with a small population. We're heading towards a globalised world, with large organisations of varying natures often representing blocks of countries. The EU, the Arab League, GCC e.t.c e.t.c. The USA and Canada have been working towards trade agreements as well. I remain skeptical about the UK's influence going forward as the legacy of the Empire and the Commonwealth drifts further into history.
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90sWereBetter
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I just don't understand why UKIP appears to hate multiculturalism and the liberal, mostly tolerant society we live in. Surely these are things to make you proud of this country, and rank amongst the traditions of the UK? And with UKIP being a more right wing version of the Tories, surely they'd like traditions.
I used to be anti-EU, until I studied the subject further. Sure, parts of the EU are bloody dreadful, but the benefits don't half outweight the faults. As long as the UK stays out of the Euro, I can't see a reasonable explanation as to why the UK should leave.
I used to be anti-EU, until I studied the subject further. Sure, parts of the EU are bloody dreadful, but the benefits don't half outweight the faults. As long as the UK stays out of the Euro, I can't see a reasonable explanation as to why the UK should leave.
I suppose the point is that now mainstream parties are beginning to look at the issue properly, they can begin more of a debate on the issue, regardless of UKIP, rather than continuing with the default position of the last thirty years which has been to say that the sky will fall in if we leave.
I do see your point. The question (as it's being phrased anyway) seems to be 'Would you rather be free and poor or rich and captive?'. That's a choice I think most people would hate to make. If the EU could reform itself significantly, by replacing the appointed Council of Ministers with an elected Senate for a start, and by reversing the clause that makes EU law superior to national law, then I would support it. However, globalisation has significantly outgrown the EU. If a company can base itself outside European jurisdiction, then it can push itself into the market. If anything, that's an argument for getting the UN involved in global trade regulation.
As for the business of multiculturalism, that's about people's sense of identity. The Metric Martyrs case was similar, people saw their national identity as being suppressed. It's a problem that goes way back to every attempt to govern Europe as a whole (see quote below). UKIP tapped into that very effectively, as do most separatist movements. In some cases, it was done deliberately. In others, it seems to be an unfortunate side-effect of any form of centralisation.
Napoleon Bonaparte said:
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Do you mean the Council of the European Union which comprises a minister from each elected government of each member state? Seems fair to me.
I think so. Having two separate bodies called the European Council and the Council of the European Union is a bit confusing, so many people call the latter the Council of Ministers. I've been known to refer to them as the 'Supreme Soviet' and the 'Central Committee', referring to two other unelected bodies with similar powers.
The Metric Martyrs stuff was nonsense though; just an opportunity for some people to attack the EU (well Europe in general). You could tell by the way people spoke; 'How dare THEY tell US what to do...' etc.
We adopted the metric system many years ago, so we should be seeking to switch properly instead of retaining road signs in miles and so on.
Anyway, that's nothing to do with Nigel Farage - although obviously UKIP has to try and ensure it can find similar things to attack the EU over.
Working in tech, I can thank the EU (well EC) for gradually reducing roaming charges with the aim that by 2015 we won't have roaming charges at all within the EU. That will mean your minutes, texts, data allowances will just carry through to anywhere you travel inside the area. There are lots of little things like this that make our lives better.
If we left the EU, you could argue that some people will say 'good riddance' and never want to travel into again and so who cares about things like that, but when I drive to Sweden through France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Denmark, I could do with seamless roaming. I benefit from having my healthcare covered, having my car insured etc etc.
There's a lot wrong with the EU as it stands, but I think we should try to fix it - not just cut off our noses to spite our faces.
We adopted the metric system many years ago, so we should be seeking to switch properly instead of retaining road signs in miles and so on.
Anyway, that's nothing to do with Nigel Farage - although obviously UKIP has to try and ensure it can find similar things to attack the EU over.
Working in tech, I can thank the EU (well EC) for gradually reducing roaming charges with the aim that by 2015 we won't have roaming charges at all within the EU. That will mean your minutes, texts, data allowances will just carry through to anywhere you travel inside the area. There are lots of little things like this that make our lives better.
If we left the EU, you could argue that some people will say 'good riddance' and never want to travel into again and so who cares about things like that, but when I drive to Sweden through France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Denmark, I could do with seamless roaming. I benefit from having my healthcare covered, having my car insured etc etc.
There's a lot wrong with the EU as it stands, but I think we should try to fix it - not just cut off our noses to spite our faces.
It isn't really. The main point of separatist parties is to make 'the other' look like the baddies trying to destroy our culture. If you read the US Declaration of Independence, it's full of referances to "...taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments..." and "...plundered our Seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our Towns, and destroyed the Lives of our People...". Looking at the SNP's financial plan for an independent Scotland, they are referring to London 'holding Scotland back', a milder version of the same thing.
Personally, I don't like the metric system, because it's impossible to divide anything by three in metres apart from anything else. If we were starting from scratch, I'd use the nautical mile as a basis (because it's based on the size of the Earth) and work from there, but that's beside the point.
kylemore
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So whats you're point - that the USA should never have gained independence?
Loyalty and love of home and hearth is hard-wired into human beings and I don't really care if this sounds dodgy compared with multicultural internationalism - who ever fought and died to protect that?
SS4
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So is religion but it doesn't make it right
What is loyalty anyway? Does the SS motto "My Honour is Loyalty" apply in this country?
Johnuk123
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http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/ukip-just-two-points-behind-tories-new-poll
UKIP 2 points behind Tories.
By more than doubling support in a month do the doubters still doubt.
This unprecedented leap in support is simply staggering.
Even if this latest poll is a bit of a rogue one it will still make very very uncomfortable reading for the Tories.
If Cameron can survive a leadership challenge before 2015 I will be surprised.
With his fanatical love of gay marriage, windmills, the E.U. and giving our money to African dictators never has a leader been more out of touch with the electorate.
UKIP 2 points behind Tories.
By more than doubling support in a month do the doubters still doubt.
This unprecedented leap in support is simply staggering.
Even if this latest poll is a bit of a rogue one it will still make very very uncomfortable reading for the Tories.
If Cameron can survive a leadership challenge before 2015 I will be surprised.
With his fanatical love of gay marriage, windmills, the E.U. and giving our money to African dictators never has a leader been more out of touch with the electorate.
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Gay marriage is a good thing. Doesn't affect me in the slightest, so why should I be allowed to stop someone else getting married?
Windmills, solar panels or any other green energy isn't a bad thing either, but for some reason we're all now against them. I do believe we need to consider nuclear for the bulk of our energy supply, but also expanding clean energy solutions too - including next generation solar panels etc.
I don't think we should leave the EU, but try and solve various issues. Being isolated from mainland Europe isn't going to make us better off, nor can we expect that we'll suddenly become the new best friends with the US, Asia/China for trade.
So, perhaps we can agree on the giving of money to dictators.. but I am not sure that's a reason to topple the PM and risk losing the next election.
Windmills, solar panels or any other green energy isn't a bad thing either, but for some reason we're all now against them. I do believe we need to consider nuclear for the bulk of our energy supply, but also expanding clean energy solutions too - including next generation solar panels etc.
I don't think we should leave the EU, but try and solve various issues. Being isolated from mainland Europe isn't going to make us better off, nor can we expect that we'll suddenly become the new best friends with the US, Asia/China for trade.
So, perhaps we can agree on the giving of money to dictators.. but I am not sure that's a reason to topple the PM and risk losing the next election.
SS4
Established Member
I'm still unsure if UKIP have the concentrated support to win seats. My hope is that the attention now focussed on UKIP will persuade people to look at their policies and see them for the utter garbage they are. UKIP have got mileage out of being a single issue party but the people want more than one issue.
Don't be fooled by choosing "traditional" settings, Farage at least as slick at Tony Blair and every move he makes is painstakingly planned to put across the persona of an ordinary man looking out for ordinary Britons which could not be further from the truth. His whole campaign reeks of Astroturfing.
None of this gets past the desk of a major broadcaster though, all of whom seem loathe to say anything bad about UKIP. Best scenario is that UKIP split the Tory vote letting Labour gain a majority.
Don't be fooled by choosing "traditional" settings, Farage at least as slick at Tony Blair and every move he makes is painstakingly planned to put across the persona of an ordinary man looking out for ordinary Britons which could not be further from the truth. His whole campaign reeks of Astroturfing.
None of this gets past the desk of a major broadcaster though, all of whom seem loathe to say anything bad about UKIP. Best scenario is that UKIP split the Tory vote letting Labour gain a majority.
SS4
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I'd rather Labour didn't get in but they're the best of the worst
kylemore
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And the Tories and their backers will just sit back and watch that happen?
My guess is that Cameron will go like a good little puppet and that Farage will be accommodated (or eliminated?), I think Farage will be sensible and allow himself to be accommodated.
However the danger is that the UKIP bandwagon runs away out of Farage's ability to control it....what then?
SS4
Established Member
That's the worst outcome, Farage (or UKIP's policy) is incorporated into Tory policy moving the latter further to the right.
SS4
Established Member
Treading awfully close to Godwin's Law there aren't we?
I was concerned about invoking Godwin's Law (it refers to Hitler and Nazis so it was invoked) but felt it illustrated just how flexible loyalty can be and that it's not always a good thing. If you'd like me to remove it I'll do so
No no it's fine, but if we could avoid any more references unless it's actually relevant
The trouble is that there is such a difference between their theoretical ideals and their capacity. On the Labour benches it is hard to think of more than one or two who have the ability actually to articulate a policy, let alone develop or defend one against criticism. Since "New Labour" the main qualification for selection as a Labour MP has been the ability to bleat the party line. In this respect, the Conservatives and LibDems are stronger, which is why they won the last election. What is really needed is a total reform of parliament to remove parties within it altogether. A good starting point would be to make every vote free and secret!
Not exactly, it's that separatist politicians use fundametally the same tactics no matter who they are. You will probably find similar rhetoric from Irish separatists, South Sudanese separatists, whoever you choose to look at.
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The old Tories (before they word Conservative had ever been applied) started off as an alliance, and they have been absorbing new factions ever since. That is mostly because they had a different set of backers, the English landowners who were not very keen on London, the court and the Whigs doing things they didn't like (like making them pay taxes). Thatcherism effectively allowed the Tories to absorb an additional faction, one that wanted to be closer to Europe (but not run by it) and was mostly backed by big business. Ideally, the current divisions in the party can be resolved by moving back closer to the older factions, the ones that today make up the backbone of party associations, especially in rural England. I say 'ideally' because I happen to live in rural England, so maybe we will actually get noticed for once instead of being treated like a vote bank by people such as Peter Lilley and Ken Clarke.
transmanche
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As is the metre - based on one ten-millionth of the distance from the Earth's equator to the North Pole...
I thought it was Paris to the North Pole...
Anyway, it still retains the fundamental flaw that it is based on 10. Humans happen to have a prime number of digits on each hand. The Babylonians (who came up with the 24-hour day) understood this flaw, so they bypassed it by basing a lot of their systems on 12 (conveniently divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4 & 6 giving intergers) rather than 10 (only divisible by 1, 2 & 5 giving intergers). Anyway, the idea is that the nautical mile (a convenient 1 minute of longitude) would be 10 cables, each cable would be 100 fathoms (1,000 fathoms = 1NM), each fathom would be 6 feet (6,000ft = 1NM) and each foot would be 12 inches (72,000in = 1NM). By retaining the base-12 system, you are still able to divide by three or six. The trouble is, that is very slightly longer than the current foot and inch (6,076.12ft = 1NM, meaning each foot would have to be 1.268% longer). That would be an absolute nightmare for engineers, so I can't see it being adopted any time soon.
SS4
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I believe it's based on one ten-millionth of the distance from the Earth's equator to the North Pole via Paris. I believe most of the SI base units are defined on each other/natural phenomenon to avoid discrepancies in measurement - the only one they're having trouble with is the kilogram which is still a metal bar.
The number of factors a number has doesn't really make much difference when it comes to converting between units, rather it's the base in use that determines if it is difficult or not to convert between units. SI works because it's powers of ten like our counting system.
Outside of base ten the binary "SI prefixes" do a similar thing for the powers of two and is useful in computing; 1 KiB = 2^10 bytes which is 10000000000 in binary (I think) so it's moving the decimal point to the left.
Scaling between measurements in Imperial, on the other hand, seems completely arbitrary. Perhaps it's because of a more organic implementation but there are different scale factors between them - if you want to measure mass you're in for a bad time.
To bring this back on topic Farage probably thinks the devil invented SI
transmanche
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Of course it's often forgotten that the House of Commons passed a bill in 1863 which would have mandated the use of the metric system across the British Empire - but it never reached the House of Lords, so never became law.
And if it had been made law, there would never have been any metric martyrs claiming that pounds are part of the British culture... in the same way you don't see people clamouring for the return of the groat, grain or perch.
Wyvern
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Treading awfully close to Godwin's Law there aren't we?
Godwin's Law applies only to Nazi analogies in discussions such as , for instance, parking attendants where they are irrelevant and hyperbolic.
It does not apply when one is discussing the sudden rise to prominance of an extreme right-wing party in a period of economic instablity.
MidnightFlyer
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UKIP's an extreme right wing party? No-one will deny they are right wing but 'extreme'? Isn't such a label best left for the BNP, Nazi Party etc? You know, parties who actually are extreme.
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