Shortage of Coal for Heritage Rail use?

Unixman · 27 May 2013

Is this article in the Telegraph alarmist? Anybody know the true position?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...t/10057288/Coal-crisis-hits-steam-trains.html

David Millward in The Telegraph said:
Coal crisis hits steam trains

The country which brought the steam engine to the world is running out of coal to fuel them

A fire at Daw Mill in Warwickshire and the collapse of Scottish Coal last month have left heritage train companies frantically scrambling for supplies as they prepare for the summer surge of tourists.

In all there are around 200 historic railway companies who attract millions of enthusiasts a year.

But while some have managed to secure coal for the next few months, others are in a parlous state especially as the coal shortage is likely to drive prices up.

There are a lot of worried people out there, said Paul Lewin, a director of the Heritage Railway Association.

Like any business, we need to know our source of supplies and materials are secure... (read more)

RailUK Forums

trainfanatic · 27 May 2013

I would have thought that Heritage lines would have entered into fairly long term contracts for steam loco coal. The coal is, more or less, a specialty coal ie the old Welsh steam coals sourced from south Wales.

Alternatively, there is always fuel oil to fall back on. It's been done before....

broadgage · 27 May 2013

Unduly alarmist IMHO.
There is no general coal shortage, only a shortage of certain preffered types.
Most, probably all coal fired engines will burn almost any grade of coal, especialy on heritage lines when prolonged full power operation is not required.
Proper steam coal burns with minimum smoke and leaves little ash, and such ash as is produced has a high melting point and should fall into the ashpan rather then melt into a sticky mass of clinker.

Cheaper grades of coal may require slightly different fireing techniques and perhaps slightly more frequent cleaning out. If the substitute coal has a lower calorific value then larger volumes will be needed, possibly a problem on long main line runs but not otherwise.

I see no reason why steam locos cant burn patent smokeless fuel, this was tried in BR day with considerable success but did not catch on due to the lower price of coal versus smokeless fuel.
I have certainly seen a large traction engine running perfectly on smokeless fuel, and the boiler/firebox on these are similar to smaller railway locos.

LE Greys · 27 May 2013

The article just came up on BBC News. I reckon it is somewhat alarmist, however if the HRA want to keep on burning coal, as opposed to running oil-burners, then I reckon they should look into getting together with the National Mining Museum to open at least one working mine, running it on a not-for-profit basis. I'm not sure how much coal gets used by all the preserved lines in the country, but it can't be much more than 100 tons a day, so I reckon the output of one or two deep mines could keep up with it (I haven't the faintest idea what the figures would be). It's not very likely, but it's an option.

YorkshireBear · 27 May 2013

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22681141

BBC news video on the subject filmed at the KWVR.

Would also like to say a point that is raised here is the lack of volunteers, something all heritage railways are struggling with. So any of you fancy helping out at your local one please do. And try not to set up new ones as collectively we are fast running out of volunteers, passengers and money.

fireftrm · 27 May 2013

The situation is as serious as the news reports suggest, it is the type of coal that does matter, as is well documented about steam locos over the ages.

robertclark125 · 27 May 2013

There is a knock on effect - the businesses that get custom from tourists visiting the areas where these lines are. Take Boness, not a normallly historic town, what with Linlithgow and its palace nearby, but the HQ of the Scottish Railway Preservation Society. As such, many small businesses and large ones will get custom from visitors. In addition, these railways often need some other materials, such as wood and metal, and local firms will be sourced for it. Again, a knock on effect.

tnxrail · 27 May 2013

They were interviewing someone from Vintage Trains on BBC News he said if they could not get any more coal they will not be able to run any tours after june/jully period.

PHILIPE · 27 May 2013

I understand the Brecon Mountain Railway wanted to acquire their coal the Ffos-y-Fran opencast site which is a part of a massive recalamtion project and only approx 3 miles. This would have been convenient, of course, but due to Planning Rules all coal leaving the site has to travel by rail.

RogerB · 27 May 2013

There were two reports on Radio 4 news this evening. They said the problem was caused by the Daw Mill Colliery fire and Scottish Coal going bust. Apparently a place in Wales is the only UK source for suitable coal.

A spokesman for the KWVR said they would have to import (inferior) coal from Russia or Poland.

It's really sad, if we have the coal we should use it, apart from our interests there would be jobs too.

tnxrail · 27 May 2013

Will this affect other tour companies or do they have there own supply.

Ironside · 27 May 2013

LE Greys said:
The article just came up on BBC News. I reckon it is somewhat alarmist, however if the HRA want to keep on burning coal, as opposed to running oil-burners, then I reckon they should look into getting together with the National Mining Museum to open at least one working mine, running it on a not-for-profit basis. I'm not sure how much coal gets used by all the preserved lines in the country, but it can't be much more than 100 tons a day, so I reckon the output of one or two deep mines could keep up with it (I haven't the faintest idea what the figures would be). It's not very likely, but it's an option.

I think this an outstanding idea, combining two forms of heritage, though mining with modern safety standards.

RogerB · 27 May 2013

^^

You can see what's going to happen - A whole raft of Heritage Industries (rail, mining, forestry, steel ...........) all supporting one another in a parallel economy.

Spam Can · 27 May 2013

There were quite a few mines that were mothballed for possible future use, (one has recently been re-opened in south wales-abliet in a relatively small way at present).
If the current situation is true then this is an ideal oppotunity for either the collective railways or some other enterprising soul to step in and and turn a bad situation around and ensure long term supplies, working railways and new job oppotunities to boot!!

E&W Lucas · 27 May 2013

broadgage said:
Most, probably all coal fired engines will burn almost any grade of coal,

No they won't!!

There have been a couple of pit closures due to geological issues, with very serious knock on effects. Most coal that is mined, is destine for the power station market. They want dust, which is of no use on locomotives. Welsh coal may be available, but it is far from suitable for all loco types. It is also prone to pulverising to dust, if transported long distances. Welsh has a low hydrocarbon gas content; GW locos are set up to burn it. Most of the rest of the country, produced coal with a high hydrocarbon gas content. In other words, most other locos are designed to burn high gas content coal.

The coal shortage is a real issue. The NYMR has been affected, with the prefered supplier closing down. Result - increased diesel running, and upset passengers. Alternative coal suppliers have been sourced, but "at a price"; not ideal in the present financial climate.

martinsh · 27 May 2013

broadgage said:
I see no reason why steam locos cant burn patent smokeless fuel, .

Colin Garratt wouldn't like that !!

Midlandman · 27 May 2013

I recall that, a few years ago, the Welshpool & Llanfair had a lump of imported Russian coal in the window of their office at Llanfair station. It had, supposedly, resisted all attempts to make it combust and was home to a thriving worm colony. It seems we may be reduced to buying stuff like this again.

E&W Lucas · 27 May 2013

broadgage said:
I see no reason why steam locos cant burn patent smokeless fuel, this was tried in BR day with considerable success but did not catch on due to the lower price of coal versus smokeless fuel.
I have certainly seen a large traction engine running perfectly on smokeless fuel, and the boiler/firebox on these are similar to smaller railway locos.

Obtain a copy of the BR Handbook for Steam Locomotive Enginemen, and read the chapters of boiler construction & combustion, paying particular attention to the concepts of the Brick Arch & Secondary Air.

The Decapod · 28 May 2013

I reckon it is somewhat alarmist, however if the HRA want to keep on burning coal, as opposed to running oil-burners, then I reckon they should look into getting together with the National Mining Museum to open at least one working mine, running it on a not-for-profit basis.

It could even be run as a 'heritage' coal mine using volunteer miners :lol:

(Legs it as quick as possible to a place of safety.......)

Ironside · 28 May 2013

I recently went on the steam boat Alaska in Henley on Thames, and that was burning compressed wood chippings, the advantages being it is a waste product and carbon neutral. Could some steam engines run of this? I imagine there are downsides including the extra bulk of wood chip.

Pumbaa · 28 May 2013

Aside from the fact it's not carbon neutral, it's not as efficient. You'd need far more.

STEVIEBOY1 · 28 May 2013

I heard about this story too which as others have said here does seem rather alarmist. It also said that the Welsh coal available may not be suitable for steam traction which surprised me as I thought Welsh coal was very good for that infact.
I don't know if it's true, but when I have been on mainline steam charters, I was told that most of the coal for those does come from Russia & Poland.

It's a shame that we don't have a steam line near my home (Shp) as I have done voluntary work before and enjoyed it and would like to be involved in the heritage steam train industry.

Unixman · 28 May 2013

Pumbaa said:
Aside from the fact it's not carbon neutral, it's not as efficient. You'd need far more.

It is a damn sight more carbon neutral than coal .....

Ironside · 28 May 2013

Pumbaa said:
Aside from the fact it's not carbon neutral, it's not as efficient. You'd need far more.

http://thames-steamers.co.uk/environmental.html

The high density wood brickettes are made from wood that was sustainably resourcesd. It's not perfect as it would need to be transported by non sustainable transport but worth a look at if it is useable by a steam loco.

tiptoptaff · 28 May 2013

STEVIEBOY1 said:
I heard about this story too which as others have said here does seem rather alarmist. It also said that the Welsh coal available may not be suitable for steam traction which surprised me as I thought Welsh coal was very good for that infact.
I don't know if it's true, but when I have been on mainline steam charters, I was told that most of the coal for those does come from Russia & Poland.

It's a shame that we don't have a steam line near my home (Shp) as I have done voluntary work before and enjoyed it and would like to be involved in the heritage steam train industry.

Welsh Steam Coal is good for the locos, what's being mined at the moment is Anthracite Coal, which isn't.

E&W Lucas · 28 May 2013

Ironside said:
I recently went on the steam boat Alaska in Henley on Thames, and that was burning compressed wood chippings, the advantages being it is a waste product and carbon neutral. Could some steam engines run of this? I imagine there are downsides including the extra bulk of wood chip.

Been tried - one chuff and it's gone! You also end up with a soggy wooden mess in the yard, as soon as it rains!

RogerB · 28 May 2013

There's just been an item on the news - apparently we're going to import timber pellets from the USA to burn in power stations.

Twoonthebuzzer · 28 May 2013

They could just go to Portbury Docks and get some. There is loads there.

gwr4090 · 28 May 2013

STEVIEBOY1 said:
I heard about this story too which as others have said here does seem rather alarmist. It also said that the Welsh coal available may not be suitable for steam traction which surprised me as I thought Welsh coal was very good for that infact.
I don't know if it's true, but when I have been on mainline steam charters, I was told that most of the coal for those does come from Russia & Poland.

There is certainly a short term issue with availability of locomotive steam coal following the collapse of Scottish Coal and the closure of Daw Mill colliery. Indeed some heritage lines (eg NYMR) have cancelled services because they don't have enough coal at present. Welsh Steam coal from Ffos-y-Fran opencast site is excellent quality and is available, but they cannot meet the current demand - they are only supplying existing customers. There are plans to import Russian coal which is also quite good, but it may take a month or two for this supply to become generally available. Polish coal is generally very dirty and smells bad, and is best avoided IMHO.

Incidentally Welsh coal has been used on the main line recentIy with notable success. It is easy to spot as the exhaust is always clean - no black clag !

David

brianthegiant · 28 May 2013

E&W Lucas said:
Been tried - one chuff and it's gone! You also end up with a soggy wooden mess in the yard, as soon as it rains!

No you have to store any kind of wood product in a barn/shed otherwise you get high moisture content, low efficiency & high smoke/ash.

Wood pellets have the advantage that they're more dense, but the disadvantage that they return to sawdust if wet. Wood chips are easier to process, you just shove seasoned tree trunks into a chipper & out comes your bulk feedstock.

A % of wood pellets are more or less a waste product from timber processing, but increasingly large swathes of Canadian forests being bought up for UK power stations. As the coal fired station reach end of life a few will be converted to run on 100% biomass, and the rest decommissioned. I don't think anyone expects new coal stations unless someone figures a much cheaper way of doing carbon capture & storage, which won't be any time soon given it's embryonic state of development.

I would guess that the demise of coal power stations will not encourage anyone to invest in mines/quarries, and that the current shortage of steam coal might therefore be more than short term?

Maybe some locos will need to be modified to run on other types of coal or even biomass. There was a recent article in landrover owner magazine about an old acquaintance of mine who has modified a landrover to run on wood sticks. I've also seen a sawmill powered by steam traction engine running on wood logs, so old coal equipment can run on wood, just not as efficiently as kit designed for wood.

Shortage of Coal for Heritage Rail use?

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