JohnB57
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It's not a can of worms. It's democracy. Don't knock it.
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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion
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HSTEd
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It is a can of worms when you note that since most council funding comes from Central Government... Central Government money is being spent on both the for and against campaigns.
True, but it's still probably better to live on the upwind side of any town/major junction/motorway/airport/other significant source of pollutants.
WatcherZero
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I actually wrote a letter to Number 10 complaining about the 51M group, pointing out that the Government had when it came to office banned local councils from using public money to lobby national government. Letter I got back was basically 'yes we know, but we arent going to do anything about it'. I dont think a Conservative government really wants to tell a lot of Conservative councils to stop funding oppostion.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
In all fairness the likely answer is that those people work in London but choose not to live there and indeed probably never have. In terms of significant numbers of people I would be interested to see the figures for those that commute from Grantham and Newark.
Hmmm, I would have to question that to a certain extent. Whilst I would agree that there are a large number of commuters travelling between Milton Keynes / Northampton and London, once you leave Northants in my experience with LM the numbers tend to thin out.
Well yes I suppose you could say that if it’s good enough for George it's good enough for the rest of us mere mortals. However, in terms of where you live, in reality class has nothing to do with it. Instead it all comes down to buying the best house in the best area that you can afford. Now whilst there are indeed some very nice areas in Cheshire, my train journey is often less than 20 minutes and never longer than 30 minutes. Now if I bought a house in Alderley Edge it would be an hour’s journey to Manchester Airport and then another 15 minutes to my home station. Against 20 to 30 minutes it’s simply not worth it.
On average the weather is dryer and a few degrees warmer in the SE. Indeed the great Geoffrey Boycott admitted so himself this afternoon at the end of Test Match Special. As for Cheshire, certain parts were very well to do long before Yaya Toure and Wayne Rooney starting earning in excess of £200k a week.
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YorkshireBear
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What HSTEd said....
Do you really want your money being spent on both for and against campaigns? its a huge waste of money.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
The thing is though as things currently stand big business and the unions have considerable influence over political policy because of the huge amount of money that they donate to political parties. Now whilst I support the idea of HS2, it would perhaps be better if political campaigns were supported by the state.
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May I join this rather interesting debate to kindly remind some of our Home Counties forum members that HS2 will serve (but a respectable distance away as not to frighten the more refined populace) our local area of Cheshire East known as "The Golden Triangle" comprising of Alderley Edge, Wilmslow and my own settlement of Prestbury. Why not research this area and you will find that it can match the Home Counties for general ambiance and property prices, Even our local three National Trust properties of Tatton Park, Lyme Park and Dunham Massey all have great houses, extensive grounds and a herd of deer.
We will most probably take the barouche box to Manchester Airport HS2 station when the services run (if I live long enough to see this).....
Paul, the company I work for have an office in Alderley Edge and I often spend the night there during the week. I concur that Alderley Edge does appear to be a very nice place to live, however it and Manchester cannot match the lifestyle opportunities that my family and I enjoy here in the SE. There is no doubt that I would use HS2 to get from home to our offices in Cheshire and Manchester however the one hour plus commute and the diminished social life would rule out a permanent move. And I'm sorry to say this but I can't stand the weather
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WatcherZero
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Interestingly BBC staff in Salford are according to a BBC staff survey, much happier than those in London.
Rational Plan
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It may be true, but I'm always suspicious of internal company surveys. Having filled in a few myself, it's not hard to be cynical, when you actually read the questions and note all the areas the skirt around or leave out, So many questions can only have a positive answer.
It is not shocking that the BBC is publicising a survey that shows what a wonderful idea it all was.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
I got the impression that staff were dragged up to Salford kicking and screaming. However, being able to claim expenses of up to £140k in some cases will have no doubt lessened the blow!
gordonthemoron
Established Member
it's not just internal company surveys, the standard of opinion polls in the media is shockingly bad
HSTEd
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And if people want to, there is the possibility of reverse commuting..... assuming they can afford that. (Although I imagine that if it didn't become the dominant flow prices would stay very low as there would otherwise be lots of empty movements returning North every morning).
tbtc
Veteran Member
So we have a Tory party comitted to getting public spending down yet spending public money on both sides of a debate?
There are a handful of well known people who got such packages, but the vast majority of BBC staff in Salford will either be paid significantly less and/or be from "the North" (rather than having located from London).
Still, don't let the taboids distort things
There are a handful of well known people who got such packages, but the vast majority of BBC staff in Salford will either be paid significantly less and/or be from "the North" (rather than having located from London).
Still, don't let the taboids distort things
JohnB57
Member
No such thing as "Government money" - it's all ours. And yes, I do want it to be spent on healthy, democratic debate, especially where massive sums of money are concerned. How do you think Parliament works?
I don't mind when it's an honest exchange of theories and analysis with the best arguement being implemented but when it's money spend on rhetoric it does seem a waist.
JohnB57
Member
But in a democracy, each opinion is equal, as is each vote. The "best argument" for you may be the worst for the majority, but you still have an equal right to have it heard. Why should that be considered rhetoric?
brianthegiant
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The really expensive part of the anti campaign was the largely unsuccessful judicial review which was funded by local councils, also by Aylesbury Golf Course.
The 'grassroots' campaigns with their endless anti signs and inflatable white elephants, I suspect receive some serious donations from rich landowners along the route. Some of the Rothschilds banking family who live at Waddesdon Manor & own significant land in that area are rumoured to strongly oppose the project.
One of the many limitations of our democracy is that those with the most money can sometimes mount the most vocal campaigns.
HSTEd
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Its not democratic debate, its local government trying to force its will on the rest of the nation.
Do we really need bucketloads of government funding to have a "debate"?
JohnB57
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True. Very true. Democracy is only democratic to a point.
But at the other end of the scale, mass (for example Union mass) can influence decisions independent of individual wealth.
brianthegiant
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Hmm, note that Andrew Adonis, the original architect of HS2 remains influential in the Labour executive. For sure Labour might be watching response to HS2 phase in affected marginal seats, but I wouldn't expect a big seachange, some of those marginal seats are near HS2 stations as well as line so will see benefits as well as disruption.
Seems to me the strongest opposition to HS2 is in Tory safe seats, so the only potential winners from a strong anti-HS2 line would be ukip, but they have no chance of swinging enough votes to get a seat in Westminster anyway.
JohnB57
Member
Local government is there to reflect the interests and in turn the wealth of its electorate. Why is that an alien concept?
And again, yes. We spend many million bucket loads of OUR OWN MONEY every day to maintain our democracy.
It may be frustrating when it affects the future of your train set, but it's what we do and it makes us what we are.
HSTEd
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No, it is there to administer local services as directed by Parliament. It has no constitutional basis and cannot claim one.
Being as the entire 2010 General Election cost ~£50m, I somehow doubt that we spend millions every day, let alone millions of bucketloads.
Not withstanding that the recent local election day was the first time I have ever been able to vote at home in a local election (since until UKIP broke through this time around noone ever bothered to stand against the Conservative Party candidate), I don't see why councils should be permitted to stand in the way of the national interest.
Parliament is supreme, that is the way it is and the way it must always be.
JohnB57
Member
So we should disregard local government opinion equally, regardless of what that is. Easy solution.
Define a "bucketload. I didn't. It was an abstract concept to make a point that's obviously beyond you. My apologies.
Supreme without any consideration of the views of the mass electorate? Don't think so. And once again, if councils were universally pro-HS2, I think you would be conspicuously silent in your criticism of them.
YorkshireBear
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Lets not start calling other people stupid shall we. He doesn't see your point of view. This is the democracy of which you speak.... Rather ironic you should do that.
The point is we are cutting local disabled bus services, schools, community services all over the place and yet they spend money on fighting government policy. In my opinion this is a waste, the politicians should spend their own time apposing it not the councils money. I don't want any of our money being spent on such things and that is my opinion.
And before you say HS2 costs lots of money it isn't from the same budget as it is an investment....
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The government has two conflicting agendas - local choice (designed to stop wind farms in the shires) and streamlined strategic planning (for HS2, nuclear power stations etc).
We are watching the clash of policies being played out.
Both policies are part of the coalition agreement (and were in manifestos).
The lack of intermediate stations on HS2 doesn't help.
The government can't point to an Aylesbury/Lichfield HS2 station to deflect the criticism that Bucks/Staffs etc take the hit but get nothing in return.
Even the French have problems squaring the regions. That's why they have strange stations like "Champagne-Ardenne TGV".
It ain't over till the fat lady sings - and she's not even reached the theatre yet.
We are watching the clash of policies being played out.
Both policies are part of the coalition agreement (and were in manifestos).
The lack of intermediate stations on HS2 doesn't help.
The government can't point to an Aylesbury/Lichfield HS2 station to deflect the criticism that Bucks/Staffs etc take the hit but get nothing in return.
Even the French have problems squaring the regions. That's why they have strange stations like "Champagne-Ardenne TGV".
It ain't over till the fat lady sings - and she's not even reached the theatre yet.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
Intermediate stations would slow the line down and in anycase there really aren't any big places on HS2 south of Brum. However, intermediate stations on WCML south of Birmingham, MML south of Nottingham and ECML south of Leeds should benefit by freeing up paths for local stopping services
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Well yes and no because there is the concern that their direct trains to London will be slower as a result. However, at least with the MML there doesn't appear to be anymore scope for reopening stations which certainly would slow things down.
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Well exactly! Whilst I'm in favour of HS2, if I lived along the route I too would have serious concerns and would expect the local council to represent my views. In all honesty, I think the groups campaigning against HS2 are holding out for more concessions from the Government and have accepted that the line will eventually get built.
I wonder whether younger members of this forum would perhaps be more sympathetic to the protestors if they had properties of their own? Opinions can change very quickly if your property and its value is under threat!
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I think it's very clear that many anti-HS2 campaigners just want more financial compensation and will eventually cave in when they get what they want*. Likewise, the Government will know that money talks and give them what they want, eventually.
It's a game, but I am certain HS2 will go ahead.
* And these people will likely be the already wealthy land owners in big homes, rather than Joe Public.
It's a game, but I am certain HS2 will go ahead.
* And these people will likely be the already wealthy land owners in big homes, rather than Joe Public.
I'm not convinced that money is everything to do with the objections; I think an amount of it is to do with resistance to change (not that the objectors don't want HS2 per say, rather they don't want to have to move/disruption/change to their way of life/etc and the emotions associated with those reasons and therefore they object to HS2 as if it was a bad thing).
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