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Chiltern Oxford Link completed

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swt_passenger

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How about a far cheaper option of just keeping the present Oxford station as it is and building a new station in north Oxford (for GWML) or south Oxford (for EWR) for services to terminate at after running through Oxford station.

There will be no EWR services terminating at Oxford, and less GW services terminating from the south, because they will be connecting EWR with existing FGW routes to make through services.

The capacity problems at Oxford are to do with insufficient platform space for intended through services - it's all discussed in the GWML RUS.
 
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JamesRowden

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Surely multiple stations makes integration with other methods impossible. One would want Oxford Station to be a hub not a bunch of loose spokes?

If you read my post you will notice that my suggestion would still involve all trains calling at the present Oxford station:

James Rowden said:
How about a far cheaper option of just keeping the present Oxford station as it is and building a new station in north Oxford (for GWML) or south Oxford (for EWR) for services to terminate at after running through Oxford station.


swt_passenger said:
There will be no EWR services terminating at Oxford, and less GW services terminating from the south, because they will be connecting EWR with existing FGW routes to make through services.

I was including Chiltern services as EWR since they will approach Oxford along the same line.
 
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It's not exactly a tough decision.

It's a brisk 15 minute walk between the two stations. All things being equal if the first train will reach a Bicester station more than 16 minutes before the next train then go for the first train. If the next train (going to the preferred station) is expected to arrive 15 minutes or less after the first train , then wait.

If time is of the essence, consider taking the first fast train and grab a taxi...

Same problem at Newark, if you park at North Gate and get the train to Lincoln and the next one back goes to Castle instead - works fine :)
 

relayer

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My understanding is that there is a new line going to be built at the back of the station "Micks" caff side joining up with the new loop (being constructed at Port Meadow) at the moment. is the bridge at Aristotle lane high enough for electrics ?
 

jimm

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My understanding is that there is a new line going to be built at the back of the station "Micks" caff side joining up with the new loop (being constructed at Port Meadow) at the moment. is the bridge at Aristotle lane high enough for electrics ?

See my post No 290 on the previous page for the current state of play, such as it is, and a link to a story from the local paper that makes it clear that the architects commissioned by Network Rail and the local councils are looking at the whole area around the station as well. When they come back with some ideas later this year, then how things pan out over the next few years will probably become clearer but until then, this is all so much hot air.

And the down loop line is not new, Network Rail are reinstating it.
 

route:oxford

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It would be hellishly ugly and visible from miles around- it isn't just "environmentalists" that would hate it

Which side of the railway are the new student apartments built on? Port Meadow or Town?

If they are town, a long graceful railway viaduct would hide all those ugly flats from view from Port Meadow.

The more I think about it, the better the idea gets.
 

Buttsy

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Which side of the railway are the new student apartments built on? Port Meadow or Town?

If they are town, a long graceful railway viaduct would hide all those ugly flats from view from Port Meadow.

The more I think about it, the better the idea gets.

The student flats have gone up in the old down yard next to the down CS before Walton Well Road bridge.
 

jimm

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Which side of the railway are the new student apartments built on? Port Meadow or Town?

If they are town, a long graceful railway viaduct would hide all those ugly flats from view from Port Meadow.

The more I think about it, the better the idea gets.

A long graceful viaduct? Perhaps something like that thing at Ashford? I'm sure Oxford's nimbys would be thrilled with that. They might even shut up about the student flats.

What needs to emerge is four though platforms and two through freight tracks down the middle - like the plan shown on page 248 of Network Rail's GW RUS in 2010 http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...trategies/great western/great western rus.pdf

It will involve major demolition and rebuilding but that's what is needed to sort out Oxford for the long term. That the architectural study is looking at both the station and the wider surrounding area gives hope that this is where things are moving.
 

L&Y Robert

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About the only things that are certain is that work is now under way to get the down loop line from Aristotle Lane - just north of the station - to Wolvercote back in use next year and there will be an intermediate stage of resignalling in 2015 to get ready for electrification the following year, which will provide an opportunity to make some sort of intermediate provision for Chiltern as well, pending a major rebuild, if that happens.

What exactly is happening with the down loop just now? Just surveying? Clearing the formation? Preparing the track base? Laying track? What? Anybody know? If not, I shall have to go and have a look myself.

I remember an incident, about 1973 I should think, rolling into Oxford from Banbury, and chatting to another, equally concerned about the (then) decline of the system. There, trundling along the down loop was the weed-killing train, evidently killing weeds. "Look at that", I said. "Yes - that must mean the down relief can't last much longer" he said. How so? - but we had reached Oxford, I couldn't ask what he meant in the huly burly of arrival, and I didn't see him again. They lifted the track soon after.

And:
Anybody know how the wolvercote junction is to be re-arranged? Both down main and down loop have to connect to the Cotswold line and the Cherwell Valley line. Bit of a tangle, especially as the 'loop' is to become the 'main' with all that means in terms of line speeds. And then there's the 'up' as well . . . .
 

RPM

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Lack of a dedicated Chiltern route from Oxford North into the station on the former LNWR formation seems to be a staggering compromise. That was one of the key features of the project. The performance risk it will transfer onto the Chiltern line is very worrying because the post EG3 infrastructure is very unforgiving of disruption, having been pared down to an affordable price.
 
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The Planner

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The down loop is not going as far as Wolvercote so nothing is being done there. The down loop will be 90mph including the turnout. The same is planned in the up except lowered to 75 from Oxford North. The seperate EG3 line still isn't dead according to my sources, it may still be required and built in some form but there are issues with electrification and where the stantions go. The only reason it was originally conceived was the perceived issue that you couldn't hack into the Oxford signalling without it falling apart, that has been found not to be the case so it was put on the back burner with the Up Jericho being made bi-di.
 

jimm

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Lack of a dedicated Chiltern route from Oxford North into the station on the former LNWR formation seems to be a staggering compromise. That was one of the key features of the project. The performance risk it will transfer onto the Chiltern line is very worrying because the post EG3 infrastructure is very unforgiving of disruption, having been pared down to an affordable price.

As I keep saying, NOTHING has been decided. The network Rail diagram of the Oxford area that has been doing the rounds is just that, a diagram that someone at Network Rail likes. I doubt Chiltern like it but until the big picture at Oxford is decided, the details like this will not be decided either.

It was indeed initially planned to be separate, with signals run from Marylebone, because if the Chiltern plan had sailed through the TPWA process smoothly, it would have been open some years before the Oxford resignalling started - and you certainly can't wire anything else into the existing installation at Oxford, which is why it isn't being attempted. With Chiltern's scheme delayed, the intermediate phase of Oxford resignalling in 2015 will allow for all manner of new arrangements, be it a separate line, or bi-directonal working.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What exactly is happening with the down loop just now? Just surveying? Clearing the formation? Preparing the track base? Laying track? What? Anybody know? If not, I shall have to go and have a look myself.

I remember an incident, about 1973 I should think, rolling into Oxford from Banbury, and chatting to another, equally concerned about the (then) decline of the system. There, trundling along the down loop was the weed-killing train, evidently killing weeds. "Look at that", I said. "Yes - that must mean the down relief can't last much longer" he said. How so? - but we had reached Oxford, I couldn't ask what he meant in the huly burly of arrival, and I didn't see him again. They lifted the track soon after.

And:
Anybody know how the wolvercote junction is to be re-arranged? Both down main and down loop have to connect to the Cotswold line and the Cherwell Valley line. Bit of a tangle, especially as the 'loop' is to become the 'main' with all that means in terms of line speeds. And then there's the 'up' as well . . . .

Apologies for any confusion but I very carefully used the spelling Wolvercote, for the village, not Wolvercot, for the junction, as the railways are still stuck in the 1850s when it comes to the spelling.

The trackbed has been cleared of vegetation, a new fence is being put up along the railway boundary heading north from Oxford and trackbed preparation is taking place alongside Wolvercote Common moving south. Vegetation has been cleared and the old trackbed is being dug out and a base layer of stone ballast laid. Trackwork will follow but I'm not sure of a date for it to become operational, due to the current signalling issues at Oxford I described above. If a way round these can be found, maybe next year. If not, will have to wait for 2015 resignalling

Passive provision will be made for the line to continue to Wolvercot junction and connect direct to the Cotswold Line again in the future, allowing for parallel moves from Oxford towards the Cotswold and Banbury routes but any changes there will have to wait for further redoubling towards Charlbury.
 

davetheguard

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Botley Road bridge floods when it rains hard. I've seen it full of water more than once. It's below the water table, well below. There must be pumps to keep it empty in wet weather. There are bits of the Thames nearby and those flood as well. No place for a cut and cover station!

Network Rail has pumps next to Botley Road bridge on the city centre side.

If they fail, as occasionally happens, the road under the railway bridge floods, which makes the already very bad traffic congestion even worse; or closes the road completely.

This traffic congestion is part of the reason why a new station at Water Eaton will revolutionise access to the railway from large parts of North, East, & even West Oxford via the ring road. Hopefully, there will be suitable connecting bus routes too, so the access will be better for everyone and not just motorists (there are already very frequent buses from Water Eaton north to Kidlington, and south to the city centre).
 

tripleseis

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And better cycling access as well. I think it will be absurd if Kidlington residents drive to the new station rather than use the bus, walk or cycle (obviously excepting those who need to use the car because of mobility issues).
 
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route:oxford

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And better cycling access as well. I think it will be absurd if Kidlington residents drive to the new station rather than use the bus, walk or cycle (obviously excepting those who need to use the car because of mobility issues).

Just need to make sure that the parking charge for the P&R site exceeds the price of a Kidlington to Water Eaton return bus ticket then.
 

jimm

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County council currently charges £3 at Water Eaton bus park-and-ride for stays of more than 11 hours, less than that is free. Not sure what the council and Chiltern's plans for a future fee structure are though.

Return bus fare to Water Eaton for most of the Kidlington stops on No 2 services is currently £2.80.
 

NickBucks

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Chiltern car parking charges are very expensive. At my station, Stoke Mandeville, charge is £6.00 per day if you park before 9.00 am. There are some concessions for car sharing I believe. Weekend charge is £4.50 I believe.
 

route:oxford

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Chiltern car parking charges are very expensive. At my station, Stoke Mandeville, charge is £6.00 per day if you park before 9.00 am. There are some concessions for car sharing I believe. Weekend charge is £4.50 I believe.

Oxford is:-

£6.10 - If you buy the parking ticket by phone on the platform.
£9.00 - If you buy your parking ticket at the checkout.
£29.00 - If you forget to check the code on the platform and have to buy it on-line or by phone at full price.
 

Andyjs247

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County council currently charges £3 at Water Eaton bus park-and-ride for stays of more than 11 hours, less than that is free. Not sure what the council and Chiltern's plans for a future fee structure are though.

Return bus fare to Water Eaton for most of the Kidlington stops on No 2 services is currently £2.80.

The normal bus fares are more expensive than on the Park&Ride. It would have been cheaper for 3 adults travelling from Kidlington to drive to Water Eaton then catch the bus to Oxford than to get the no2 all the way.

Incidentally, Kidlington is in the Oxford Plusbus zone.

Chiltern car parking charges are very expensive. At my station, Stoke Mandeville, charge is £6.00 per day if you park before 9.00 am. There are some concessions for car sharing I believe. Weekend charge is £4.50 I believe.

Parking at Bicester Town is currently free. Plenty of space if you get there before the crowds descend on Bicester Village. Even now with the current service, train is the better/cheaper option for getting to Oxford vs driving to the P&R at Water Eaton or Peartree then getting the bus, or getting the bus from Bicester.

I doubt parking at Bicester Town will remain free after EG3 and I expect the Oxford train fare will have to increase from the current £2.50 return (off peak).
 

jimm

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The normal bus fares are more expensive than on the Park&Ride. It would have been cheaper for 3 adults travelling from Kidlington to drive to Water Eaton then catch the bus to Oxford than to get the no2 all the way.

Incidentally, Kidlington is in the Oxford Plusbus zone.



Parking at Bicester Town is currently free. Plenty of space if you get there before the crowds descend on Bicester Village. Even now with the current service, train is the better/cheaper option for getting to Oxford vs driving to the P&R at Water Eaton or Peartree then getting the bus, or getting the bus from Bicester.

I doubt parking at Bicester Town will remain free after EG3 and I expect the Oxford train fare will have to increase from the current £2.50 return (off peak).

I was merely noting the current bus fare from Kidlington to Water Eaton - who knows what will apply once Water Eaton Parkway is open? The bus operators may offer a group fare or plug weekly Plusbus add-on tickets but frankly the great majority of commuters who drive to stations that I'm familiar with are the only person in the car.

Of course the railway parking at Bicester Town will charge once the London service starts - at the usual Chiltern rates I expect (£7 peak at Bicester North at present) and the fare structure for trains to Oxford will change.
 

nanagrampy

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Parking at Bicester Town is currently free. Plenty of space if you get there before the crowds descend on Bicester Village. Even now with the current service, train is the better/cheaper option for getting to Oxford vs driving to the P&R at Water Eaton or Peartree then getting the bus, or getting the bus from Bicester.

I doubt parking at Bicester Town will remain free after EG3 and I expect the Oxford train fare will have to increase from the current £2.50 return (off peak).

The car park is shared with Bicester Village, rail users have it Mon-Fri and Bicester Village at the weekends. I assume Chiltern will take full control of the car park but I don't know how they'll charge. There's nothing to stop people parking in the other nearby Bicester Village car parks and walking to the station. If parking becomes free at Bicester Town then Bicester North will lose a lot of it's London bound customers. (Top tip: parking at Bicester North is cheaper if you buy your tickets in the station office, rather than at the machine).

The fare structure will be interesting. The current fare is subsidised by Bicester Village so whilst other fares will go up, services to Bicester Town may remain cheaper.
 

jimm

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The car park is shared with Bicester Village, rail users have it Mon-Fri and Bicester Village at the weekends. I assume Chiltern will take full control of the car park but I don't know how they'll charge. There's nothing to stop people parking in the other nearby Bicester Village car parks and walking to the station. If parking becomes free at Bicester Town then Bicester North will lose a lot of it's London bound customers. (Top tip: parking at Bicester North is cheaper if you buy your tickets in the station office, rather than at the machine).

The fare structure will be interesting. The current fare is subsidised by Bicester Village so whilst other fares will go up, services to Bicester Town may remain cheaper.

They will probably use ANPR, plus a free parking time limit, to stop rail commuters using Bicester Village's parking all day free of charge. Car park revenue is rather important for Chiltern's business plan.

The Oxford-Bicester fare is not subsidised. The service, and fares to a degree, were subsidised from 2009-12 by Oxfordshire County Council using planning gain money paid by the developers of Bicester Village that was allocated for transport projects but most of the money went on running 11 or 12 trains a day instead of seven and running Sunday trains. Chiltern haven't bothered to change the service or fares as the line is going to close for rebuilding - and at the time the subsidy ended in March last year, they were hoping closure would be within a few months, not late 2013/early 2014.
 

route:oxford

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They will probably use ANPR, plus a free parking time limit, to stop rail commuters using Bicester Village's parking all day free of charge. Car park revenue is rather important for Chiltern's business plan.

The Oxford-Bicester fare is not subsidised. The service, and fares to a degree, were subsidised from 2009-12 by Oxfordshire County Council using planning gain money paid by the developers of Bicester Village that was allocated for transport projects but most of the money went on running 11 or 12 trains a day instead of seven and running Sunday trains. Chiltern haven't bothered to change the service or fares as the line is going to close for rebuilding - and at the time the subsidy ended in March last year, they were hoping closure would be within a few months, not late 2013/early 2014.

Sunday trains are very well loaded.

It's so much more pleasant to take the train to Bicester on a weekend than it is to drive there.

Will Chiltern run a Boxing day service when the London route is open?

Bicester is usually gridlocked on Boxing day...
 

nanagrampy

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Thanks Jimm for the information. I didn't realise the service was no longer subsidised.

Will EWR also be ran by Chiltern? If not, there will be great competition (perhaps resulting in lower fares) between the two companies operating Bicester-Oxford.

ANPR: Yes, probably what they'll do. Although some Bicester Village customers do go for a whole day so they'll have to be charged as well.

BV will be a super off-peak earner for Chiltern.

Looking back at this press release, http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/news/chiltern-keep-running-through-christmas-0 , it seems no services will run on Boxing Day :(
 
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swt_passenger

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Will EWR also be ran by Chiltern? If not, there will be great competition (perhaps resulting in lower fares) between the two companies operating Bicester-Oxford.

Nothing has ever been decided. However Chiltern were reported as saying they were not interested in EWR as such (although that's a few years ago now). With the intention to electrify EWR from opening, and link services across Oxford rather than terminate there, it could even end up with a future GW franchisee. Likewise the inclusion of electrification to Bedford could make it a good fit with LM, with the advantage that the Bedford - Bletchley section would no longer be a 'diesel island' for LM.

However having written all that, Chiltern would presumably take the Marylebone - Milton Keynes DMU service by default, as it is an extension of one of their existing Aylesbury services...
 

mr_jrt

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Nothing has ever been decided. However Chiltern were reported as saying they were not interested in EWR as such (although that's a few years ago now). With the intention to electrify EWR from opening, and link services across Oxford rather than terminate there, it could even end up with a future GW franchisee. Likewise the inclusion of electrification to Bedford could make it a good fit with LM, with the advantage that the Bedford - Bletchley section would no longer be a 'diesel island' for LM.

However having written all that, Chiltern would presumably take the Marylebone - Milton Keynes DMU service by default, as it is an extension of one of their existing Aylesbury services...

I wonder if it would make sense to operate Aylesbury-MK and Bletchley-Bedford as part of Chiltern initially, then when the wires go up between Bletchley and Bedford in the 2nd phase, hand it back to the WCML suburban franchisee. Basing the diesel units at the Chiltern depot in Aylesbury would make some operational sense.
 

jimm

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Although some Bicester Village customers do go for a whole day so they'll have to be charged as well.

Depends what you mean by the whole day - I doubt they're shopping for the length of time commuters leave their cars at the station. Even an eight-hour free parking limit would exclude commuters and allow for an awful lot of shopping.
 

GingerSte

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Slightly O/T, I know, but...

Has Chiltern Railways ever looked into a service from Marylebone to Coventry, or possibly even Birmingham International? With the Kenilworth Station going ahead, I could see a potential market for 1 train per hour.

If this service took some of the local connections, it could free up the London-Birmingham services to go faster (one of Chiltern's aims, I believe).

Longer term, it could be used to placate the locals in that area currently opposed to HS2 on the grounds that Coventry might get a worse service.
 

Old Hill Bank

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Slightly O/T, I know, but...

Has Chiltern Railways ever looked into a service from Marylebone to Coventry, or possibly even Birmingham International? With the Kenilworth Station going ahead, I could see a potential market for 1 train per hour.

If this service took some of the local connections, it could free up the London-Birmingham services to go faster (one of Chiltern's aims, I believe).

Longer term, it could be used to placate the locals in that area currently opposed to HS2 on the grounds that Coventry might get a worse service.

This item could not have been up for discussion until now due to the Virgin Moderation of Competition issue and the lack of paths through Kenilworth.
 
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