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Scotland: Forward thinking with their railways?

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Marklund

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Like all socialist administrations, the SNP despise the private motorist

Err, no. The SNP aren't known as the Tartan Tories for nothing.
All the major rail investment came from the Socialists.

All the SNP has done is painted the trains with a saltire, and put pointless Gaelic signage up in places where Gaelic was never prevalent.

Heaven help us if independence goes ahead, where transport policy from the SNP is altered very shortly after a cash donation by man that campaigned to keep clause 28 donated it to them.
 
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Out of curiosity given the SNP's record on managing rail projects does anybody believe that they will be able to deliver their high speed line by 2024, two years ahead of the first phase of HS2.
 

tbtc

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Out of curiosity given the SNP's record on managing rail projects does anybody believe that they will be able to deliver their high speed line by 2024, two years ahead of the first phase of HS2.

I'm convinced that the SNP will have EGIP completed by 2024, maybe even the Edinburgh Tram. Maybe!

High Speed line from Glasgow to Edinburgh by then? No.
 

scotsman

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Forward thinking? No chance? EGIP cut, repeatedly, spun as "investment" - at the moment it looks like it'll be some knitting, some new trains, and some larger platforms - hardly what it was billed to be when first envisaged.

The road building points are invalid, too - the SNP promised a fully-dualled A9 back in 2007...six years later, nothing has been done.
 

Mex

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The present SNP goverment in Holyrood is far less pro-rail than the coalition government they replaced. It was that Labour/Lib-Dem coalition that delivered legislation to re-open the Larkhall line, the Alloa line, Airdrie-Bathgate, the Borders Railway, Glasgow Airport Rail Link and Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. Immediately on coming to power as a minority government in 2007, the SNP cancelled the rail links to both Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports. Then they cheekily claimed credit for the re-opening of Airdrie-Bathgate.

On the subject of Airdrie-Bathgate, the pathetically poor usage of the line has not escaped the notice of Scotrail who have been sending one of their staff to conduct passenger counts.

It doesn't take him long, he amuses himself for the rest of the journey by playing games on his smartphone.

Hopefully Scotrail will see sense and close this white elephant.
 

Railsigns

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On the subject of Airdrie-Bathgate, the pathetically poor usage of the line has not escaped the notice of Scotrail who have been sending one of their staff to conduct passenger counts.

The official usage figures for last year look fairly healthy. A figure of more than 90,000 for Caldercruix station is far higher than many stations on the Shotts line, for example.

Hopefully Scotrail will see sense and close this white elephant.

That's not ScotRail's decision to make.
 

Mex

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The official usage figures for last year look fairly healthy. A figure of more than 90,000 for Caldercruix station is far higher than many stations on the Shotts line, for example.

I hardly think comparing the 'official' usage figures to stations like Breich is helpful.

That's not ScotRail's decision to make.

You know what I mean. They can withdraw services.
 

ex-railwayman

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Sorry, I'm confused, I got sidetracked from this thread after reading that someone wants to introduce Passenger Transport Executives, errrrrr, we've already had them ever since the Transport Act 1968, never heard of WMPTE, SYPTE, GMPTE, etc, etc.
When I worked in Birmingham (1987) I had a season ticket with WMPTE to use on the trains across town, in the early 1990s WMPTE adopted the 'corporate' name of Centro, however, I think the Regional name has since changed to be known as Network West Midlands, so, I think some of you folks have quite forgotten that we have had PTE's in place for the last 25 years, or, so, across the Midlands and North of England, there was even a Greater Glasgow Passenger Transport Executive once upon a time, I'll leave you all to debate it as to whether they've made much difference in your answers on this thread.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
 

Railsigns

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I hardly think comparing the 'official' usage figures to stations like Breich is helpful.

It's not just Breich (which I didn't specifically mention). Hartwood, Fauldhouse and Addiewell stations all have much lower usage than Caldercruix.

You know what I mean. They can withdraw services.

They can't withdraw services that they're contractually obliged to provide under the terms of their franchise.
 

ian1944

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On the subject of Airdrie-Bathgate, the pathetically poor usage of the line SNIP

These towns are both places that people are likelier to leave than go to, but not leave in favour of the other. Being a wee bit fanciful, would a direct Cumbernauld-Rhyl service see much demand?
 

scotsman

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My uncle in auchtarader goes on about it but to be honest I live in mid Wales and am forced into driving the a470/A483/A44 etc and can't see what the fuss is about

It's an incredibly busy arterial route from the Central Belt to Inverness - it's regularly congested with locals, business travelers, coaches and lorries all sharing the single route north.
 

HSTEd

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Hopefully Scotrail will see sense and close this white elephant.

Being as the route is now electrified and thus has very low operating costs... I fail to see how closing it is going to save significant amount of money.

Considering the very low cost of operating said units I would be very surprised if the service did not cover its operating costs.
The capital costs are already sunk, you can't trade the line improvements and electrification in for your money back.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Being as the route is now electrified and thus has very low operating costs... I fail to see how closing it is going to save significant amount of money.

Considering the very low cost of operating said units I would be very surprised if the service did not cover its operating costs.
The capital costs are already sunk, you can't trade the line improvements and electrification in for your money back.

A 4tph all-day service does seem like overkill over the new section of the line.
Saving some EMUs would reduce the need for new stock on EGIP or elsewhere.
 

dcsprior

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Like all socialist administrations, the SNP despise the private motorist
Err, no. The SNP aren't known as the Tartan Tories for nothing.
All the major rail investment came from the Socialists.

What most parties have in common is a position on the left or right of the political spectrum - but the nature of the SNP is that isn't the case: what its members (and core supporters) have in common is instead a belief in Scottish independence. Having said that, almost everyone in Scotland is to the left of the 2 big UK parties, so the SNPs stated policies (if nothing else) tend to be to the left of Scottish Labour

Heaven help us if independence goes ahead, where transport policy from the SNP is altered very shortly after a cash donation by man that campaigned to keep clause 28 donated it to them.

I had always assumed that after the referendum, the SNP would either be seen as a failure (and shrink drastically at the next election) or have achieved their main aim and therefore not need to exist as a party any more. Either way, I think they peak in 2014.
 

class303

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What most parties have in common is a position on the left or right of the political spectrum - but the nature of the SNP is that isn't the case: what its members (and core supporters) have in common is instead a belief in Scottish independence. Having said that, almost everyone in Scotland is to the left of the 2 big UK parties, so the SNPs stated policies (if nothing else) tend to be to the left of Scottish Labour



I had always assumed that after the referendum, the SNP would either be seen as a failure (and shrink drastically at the next election) or have achieved their main aim and therefore not need to exist as a party any more. Either way, I think they peak in 2014.

SNP tried to fix the referendum by allowing 16-18 year olds to vote, now latest poll shows only 20% of them in favour of independence, eat it Salmond.
 
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SkinnyDave

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SNP will be around for a while regardless of the referendum result as Labour still don't have a clue in Scotland and can't count and as for the rest no comment.
There is an appetite for more devolved powers to Scotland and the SNP with Salmond in particular still doing well in the polls.


Back on topic however the EGIP has been a farce but its not any more or any less of a farce than Thameslink, IEP, Franchise fiascosetc etc.
What they are doing with fares in Scotland is a good idea and there are good ideas but Keith Brown is **** poor in executing them.
 
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michael769

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On the subject of Airdrie-Bathgate, the pathetically poor usage of the line has not escaped the notice of Scotrail who have been sending one of their staff to conduct passenger counts.

Sorry but as someone who actually travels on this line I have to say that this statement is entirely inaccurate.

A-B services are absolutely heaving between Glasgow and Edinburgh with 6 -car sets at standing room only into Edinburgh and Glasgow during peak hours, and it remains busy enough out of the peak to still require the 4x6 car units an hour. In contrast the Shotts line manages on 2x2 car units an hour even at peak.

For a more accurate comparison take a look at the difference in passenger loading at Livingston North and Livingston South stations.

Livingston North Passenger numbers increased from 641,000 in 2010/11 to 825,000 in 2011/12, in contrast at Livingston South numbers dropped from 300,000 to 285,000 in the same period.

The passenger counts to which you refer were carried out on all Scottish services by a private contractor as they are every year as part of Scotrail's franchise obligations.
 
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tbtc

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A-B services are absolutely heaving between Glasgow and Edinburgh with 6 -car sets at standing room only into Edinburgh and Glasgow during peak hours

The Bathgate to Edinburgh service and the Drumgelloch - Glasgow service were both pretty busy before the "gap" was completed.

The definition of "success" for the A-B line (for me) is how busy services between Airdrie and Bathgate are.
 

michael769

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The Bathgate to Edinburgh service and the Drumgelloch - Glasgow service were both pretty busy before the "gap" was completed.

The definition of "success" for the A-B line (for me) is how busy services between Airdrie and Bathgate are.

But than is not the whole story. One must also consider the impact of the improved services on the existing flows.

Prior to completion they were running 2x4-6 car sets at peak, 2x2car off peak from Bathgate to Edinburgh, they were jammed, but today 4x6 is equally as jammed on the same flow, and needing 4x6 off peak. Car parks at the stations which were more than doubled in size are now overflowing, despite the smaller parks often having spare capacity before the upgrade.

In any event the services at peak are still very busy indeed between Bathgate and Airdrie. I suspect there are a fair number of folks who used to have to travel from (for example) from Livingston to Glasgow via Edinburgh who, despite no contributing to an increase in total passengers, are now enjoying a better quality of life due to lower journey times - which is a win on its own (before we consider the reduced pressure on the overloaded E-G shuttle).

I know it is fashionable to knock out country, but the simple reality as observed on the ground by real people who live in the area and who do real journeys on those services can attest to it being a major success story.

I assure you that the implication of the post I originally responded to of virtually deserted trains bears no relationship to the daily reality experienced by those of us who use the service.
 

PaxVobiscum

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On the subject of Airdrie-Bathgate, the pathetically poor usage of the line has not escaped the notice of Scotrail who have been sending one of their staff to conduct passenger counts.

It doesn't take him long, he amuses himself for the rest of the journey by playing games on his smartphone.

Hopefully Scotrail will see sense and close this white elephant.

As a regular user of the Airdrie-Bathgate services I have to say I dismissed this post as a bit of a fol-de-rol which didn't justify the effort of a rebuttal.
 
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clc

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The SNP do seem to prioritise roadbuilding - I reckon about £4 billion's worth either built, under construction or in procurement. However, they have taken forward some big rail schemes. Most of these were conceived before they came to power it's true but they still had to progress them and give the final go ahead for Network Rail to build them. GARL and EGIP were victims of austerity, something had to go and the SNP evidently decided it wasn't going to be any of the road schemes. You can possibly forgive this when you realise how poor much of the road network up here was and is.
 

Eagle

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The SNP do seem to prioritise roadbuilding - I reckon about £4 billion's worth either built, under construction or in procurement.

Although a lot of that, too, was brought about by the pre-2007 Labour government (such as the M80 and M74 schemes).
 

clc

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Although a lot of that, too, was brought about by the pre-2007 Labour government (such as the M80 and M74 schemes).

The Labour/Lib Dem administration started the process that's true. The SNP took power in May 2007. The M74 contract was awarded in March 2008, M80 contract awarded in January 2009, so the SNP did take them forward and effected delivery.
 

Quickthorn

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What most parties have in common is a position on the left or right of the political spectrum

What most parties also have in common is that they get bought by wealthy donors with their own agenda, and to find out what a party really stands for, you need to know the interests of their donors. If it coincides with the interests of their voters, that would be merely coincidence.

I had a small amount of respect for Salmond and the SNP until I found out about the Souter connection
 

dcsprior

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What most parties also have in common is that they get bought by wealthy donors with their own agenda, and to find out what a party really stands for, you need to know the interests of their donors. If it coincides with the interests of their voters, that would be merely coincidence.

I had a small amount of respect for Salmond and the SNP until I found out about the Souter connection

Sorry, what I meant was that what the members of a political party normally have in common with other members of the same party is a position on the Right or Left. In the SNP's case, what their members all have in common is a belief in independence - so they have a mixture of members who're the right and some who're the left.
 

Mex

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The Bathgate to Edinburgh service and the Drumgelloch - Glasgow service were both pretty busy before the "gap" was completed.

The definition of "success" for the A-B line (for me) is how busy services between Airdrie and Bathgate are.

And by that definition it not a success. It's true to say that the Bathgate-Edinburgh and Airdire-Glasgow services can be standing-room-only at peak time, but that has always been the case before A-B was completed. But they is not relevant to the A-B services which - contrary to the claims of other people here - are commonly empty, even at peak times.

I advise any skeptics to take a ride on the A-B services some time to verify this. They will usually enjoy a carriage to themselves.
 

RyanB

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I will add the opening of the entire Tram system in my former home town of Croydon in 2000
Nottingham Tram system in 2003.

Compared with Scotland still struggling to open their first tram system in Edinburgh.

Finally--Under construction in (under!) London at present is the Cross-Rail system

The Scottish Govt gave the go ahead for that project but the shambles is entirely down to Edinburgh Council and the poor structuring of the contracts by the council.
 

Altnabreac

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And by that definition it not a success. It's true to say that the Bathgate-Edinburgh and Airdire-Glasgow services can be standing-room-only at peak time, but that has always been the case before A-B was completed. But they is not relevant to the A-B services which - contrary to the claims of other people here - are commonly empty, even at peak times.

I advise any skeptics to take a ride on the A-B services some time to verify this. They will usually enjoy a carriage to themselves.

At peak times the Airdrie - Bathgate section is far from empty. However given the volume of loadings at both ends the trains through the central section have to be long enough to be fairly empty to avoid overcrowding by the time they reach Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The relative emptiness is actually a deliberate policy by Transport Scotland and Scotrail to avoid overcrowding. There are a lot of spare seats in the shoulder peak because the long Helensburgh/Milngavie - Edinburgh journey makes it trickier to frequently adjust train length than on shorter shuttles like Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk.

Just look at a station like Armadale with 126,000 users in the first full year, from an area without a strong existing commuter base. Then look at the 2,000 new houses which will be built there in the next 5 years: www.armadalestation.co.uk and you can see no one is going to be closing the rail link anytime soon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Out of curiosity given the SNP's record on managing rail projects does anybody believe that they will be able to deliver their high speed line by 2024, two years ahead of the first phase of HS2.

It's a relatively simple, cheap project by HS standards. Couple of billion pounds. No untried technology, Class 395 type rolling stock, no stations to build, no property demolition. Just runs in fields and a few industrial areas on the edge o Glasgow.

It's not a coincidence that EGIP has been descoped as Edinburgh - Glasgow high speed has been developed. Hasn't been communicated very well yet though. Expect a big announcement on the route details in early 2014.

It will happen, sooner than you think. A2B was first seriously suggested in the Central Scotland Transport Corridor Study in 2002, no one thought it would happen but it was open 8 years later...
 
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