Polaris train not going ahead?

ryan125hst · 15 Jun 2013

I've just had a look on Alliance Rail's website to see if there is any news about the GNER and GNWR services they plan to run. After seeing that there isn't, I then searched for the Polaris trains, the trains that Alliance Rail intended to use to operate the services, to see if there are any developments with those.

I was sad to find that, according to Wikipedia:

Wikipedia said:
The Polaris concept will now not be taken to market

The website for the company that intended to manufacture them, CSRE, is dead.

It looked like an interesting concept and a fantastic train. I was looking forward to seeing them going through Retford, along with the new IEP's. At one point, I think it was looking like I would see both between 2013 and 2015. Now the Polaris trains are cancelled and the IEP's won't operate in passenger service on the ECML until 2018.

Does anyone know what happened?

RailUK Forums

Masboroughlad · 15 Jun 2013

Sadly, I think Alliance's GNER and GNWR are not going to happen.

route:oxford · 15 Jun 2013

ryan125hst said:
I've just had a look on Alliance Rail's website to see if there is any news about the GNER and GNWR services they plan to run. After seeing that there isn't, I then searched for the Polaris trains, the trains that Alliance Rail intended to use to operate the services, to see if there are any developments with those.

I was sad to find that, according to Wikipedia:

The website for the company that intended to manufacture them, CSRE, is dead.

It looked like an interesting concept and a fantastic train. I was looking forward to seeing them going through Retford, along with the new IEP's. At one point, I think it was looking like I would see both between 2013 and 2015. Now the Polaris trains are cancelled and the IEP's won't operate in passenger service on the ECML until 2018.

Does anyone know what happened?

Well, it could be that with the roll-out of electrification throughout England, there are going to be dozens of 22x, HSTs and 180s displaced.

Stock that is ideal for open-access operators.

swt_passenger · 15 Jun 2013

I always thought Polaris would never happen in any shape or form. I don't think I was the only one...

asylumxl · 15 Jun 2013

swt_passenger said:
I always thought Polaris would never happen in any shape or form. I don't think I was the only one...

I do think there was the potential for trains to be ordered. There was much interest in them from various parties. Interest doesn't necessarily translate to orders though.

rebmcr · 15 Jun 2013

swt_passenger said:
I always thought Polaris would never happen in any shape or form. I don't think I was the only one...

To be honest, I'm glad. In my experience, Chinese engineering has done its utmost to eliminate any confidence I had in it.

European, American, Japanese, even Indian engineering are all perfectly competent, but Chinese just wouldn't make me feel safe.

starrymarkb · 16 Jun 2013

asylumxl said:
I do think there was the potential for trains to be ordered. There was much interest in them from various parties. Interest doesn't necessarily translate to orders though.

Or they could have been used to hammer down prices from the preferred (European) supplier.

asylumxl · 16 Jun 2013

rebmcr said:
To be honest, I'm glad. In my experience, Chinese engineering has done its utmost to eliminate any confidence I had in it.

European, American, Japanese, even Indian engineering are all perfectly competent, but Chinese just wouldn't make me feel safe.

How do you come to this conclusion?

Chinese heavy industry cannot be compared to cheap electronic devices.

Besides, whatever you posted the reply from is quite probably majority Chinese parts.

Invincibles · 16 Jun 2013

rebmcr said:
To be honest, I'm glad. In my experience, Chinese engineering has done its utmost to eliminate any confidence I had in it.

European, American, Japanese, even Indian engineering are all perfectly competent, but Chinese just wouldn't make me feel safe.

I am not aware they have any problems with the 100's of high speed trains that are speeding around China every day. Not to mention the slower stuff that is running around.

I never have any safety concerns getting on to a train that is going to go faster than anything we have in the UK. Indeed if we could build our HS lines as efficiently and get them to operate as well it would be great.

It is a shame that we are losing competition for rolling stock orders.

GNERman · 16 Jun 2013

Alliance Rail's Facebook page shows an IEP in the proposed GNER livery... I can only presume that this is their new preferred rolling stock for their services...

asylumxl · 16 Jun 2013

Am I the only one who thinks that Hitachi's 3D renderings leave a lot to be desired?

WatcherZero · 16 Jun 2013

Of their three models on offer CSRE claimed they had a deal to deliver prototypes of two of the classes to the UK to get some non-passenger carrying running experience/proof of concept, Northern was one of those rumoured to be supporting their trial alongside Alliance (though neither operator was ever named). However the shupping of the units never materialised.

mwmbwls · 16 Jun 2013

Invincibles said:
I am not aware they have any problems with the 100's of high speed trains that are speeding around China every day. Not to mention the slower stuff that is running around.

I never have any safety concerns getting on to a train that is going to go faster than anything we have in the UK. Indeed if we could build our HS lines as efficiently and get them to operate as well it would be great.

It is a shame that we are losing competition for rolling stock orders.

The New Zealanders re-ordered 20 more of their heavy goods DL class.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m-ocnyy8Y_s
So they must be happy with the logistics support chain.

asylumxl · 16 Jun 2013

mwmbwls said:
The New Zealanders re-ordered 20 more of their heavy goods DL class.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m-ocnyy8Y_s
So they must be happy with the logistics support chain.

The Aussies are happy with their locomotives too. Even the Aussie veg seem to like them.

ryan125hst · 16 Jun 2013

Masboroughlad said:
Sadly, I think Alliance's GNER and GNWR are not going to happen.

Why not? I know they haven't updated their website for a while, but the proposals look good. I hope they are able to run.

route:oxford said:
Well, it could be that with the roll-out of electrification throughout England, there are going to be dozens of 22x, HSTs and 180s displaced.

Stock that is ideal for open-access operators.

I see your point. The HST's will surely be scrapped (sadly) though as by the time the IEP's arrive they will be 40 years old plus. There are 14 Class 180's, and 27 Class 222's, so that leaves 41 trains to be either cascaded to other routes or used by open access operators. It looks like the rolling stock shortage we have now won't exist in ten years time (hopefully).

swt_passenger said:
I always thought Polaris would never happen in any shape or form. I don't think I was the only one...

Why not?

GNERman said:
Alliance Rail's Facebook page shows an IEP in the proposed GNER livery... I can only presume that this is their new preferred rolling stock for their services...

I haven't noticed that. There website still shows the Polaris. Would they be able to order IEP's?

anthony263 · 16 Jun 2013

ryan125hst said:
I haven't noticed that. There website still shows the Polaris. Would they be able to order IEP's?

Nothing to stopAliance ordering IEP's except they currently dont have any services to operate them on although perhaps they can order them for Grand Central since I think it is likely Hull trains will order full electric emu's once the line to Hull is wired.

Hitachi I am sure would love more work to justify their factory

ryan125hst · 17 Jun 2013

anthony263 said:
I think it is likely Hull trains will order full electric emu's once the line to Hull is wired.

The line to Hull is being electrified? I don't think I've heard about that one. When do they plan to start and complete it by?

Eagle · 17 Jun 2013

anthony263 said:
Nothing to stopAliance ordering IEP's except they currently dont have any services to operate them on although perhaps they can order them for Grand Central since I think it is likely Hull trains will order full electric emu's once the line to Hull is wired.

Grand Central is separate from Alliance though (although they have a common parent company, namely Arriva).

dmspastor · 17 Jun 2013

rebmcr said:
To be honest, I'm glad. In my experience, Chinese engineering has done its utmost to eliminate any confidence I had in it.

European, American, Japanese, even Indian engineering are all perfectly competent, but Chinese just wouldn't make me feel safe.

From my experience with chinese trains,they are:
faster ,ON-TIME, all seat are in right direction and much more comfortable,station amazing passanger flow to get into/from train . I was very shocked how british transport looks primitve compare to that.
(Polish railways are one big heritage trains network for Asians

)

However. I think , would like to add that, In my opinion UK has most amazing customer service in the world.

With Chinese heavy industries is quite complex story as they quite bad in do things from specifications,but they seems to amazing job if you give them example an high quality "item",they will clone with the same quality.

Chinese designing and engineering is much better than many people thinks and their progress which they made in quality is really impressive.

YorkshireBear · 17 Jun 2013

ryan125hst said:
The line to Hull is being electrified? I don't think I've heard about that one. When do they plan to start and complete it by?

Nothing official announced but it is rumored strongly. Also several news articles relating to First Hull Trains putting up money for it in return for paths along ECML for XX years. And from talking to people at Network Rail it will follow on from TPE anyway as it would be stupid not to.

upnorth71 · 17 Jun 2013

Once the IEP trains are up and running, and proven to be reliable, I'm sure there will be Chinese-made Polaris Trains that will be remarkably similar, hint hint

swt_passenger · 17 Jun 2013

anthony263 said:
Nothing to stop Aliance ordering IEP's ...

...except maybe their business case is pants and no one will lend them the money?

Invincibles · 17 Jun 2013

upnorth71 said:
Once the IEP trains are up and running, and proven to be reliable, I'm sure there will be Chinese-made Polaris Trains that will be remarkably similar, hint hint

You think it will take that long?

Given the performance of the UK in winter it might be sensible to look at the trains that are used on the Haerbin to Dalian high speed line that are specially designed to cope with the -30c temperatures in that area in the winter. Though we would probably find a way to make them grind to a halt as soon as there was light snow as well

transmanche · 17 Jun 2013

upnorth71 said:
Once the IEP trains are up and running, and proven to be reliable, I'm sure there will be Chinese-made Polaris Trains that will be remarkably similar, hint hint

Invincibles said:
You think it will take that long?

Given recent news stories about industrial espionage linked to the Chinese government and military - the blueprints will probably already be available in China before Hitachi's factory is ready to start production! :lol:

route:oxford · 17 Jun 2013

dmspastor said:
all seat are in right direction

The trouble with having all seating in the "right" direction is that there are a few people out there who don't like to sit opposite to the direction of travel - even though it is the safest way to travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

swt_passenger said:
...except maybe their business case is pants and no one will lend them the money?

There shouldn't be any problem with a state backed company getting money...

Whether or not DB Rail would be comfortable buying Hitachi trains made in the UK when they could tailor the specification to suit a German manufacturer is another matter.

WatcherZero · 17 Jun 2013

transmanche said:
Given recent news stories about industrial espionage linked to the Chinese government and military - the blueprints will probably already be available in China before Hitachi's factory is ready to start production!

Wasnt there a story four/five years ago that they had aquired a set of blueprints for Sprinters when buying a British rail maintence company and had used that when designing the Pacesetter and Pulsar models and was how they were able to offer compatibily with 15x and MK3 stock?

http://www.slideshare.net/Kingfisher200262/csre-uk-approach-linkedin-feb11-6989747

anthony263 · 17 Jun 2013

WatcherZero said:
Wasnt there a story four/five years ago that they had aquired a set of blueprints for Sprinters when buying a British rail maintence company and had used that when designing the Pacesetter and Pulsar models and was how they were able to offer compatibily with 15x and MK3 stock?

http://www.slideshare.net/Kingfisher200262/csre-uk-approach-linkedin-feb11-6989747

I am sure I read somewhere that CSRE had stated they could potentially build a new updated version of the class 150

GNERman · 17 Jun 2013

I believe that was what the Pacesetter was, a Regional DMU. I read that a 2-car high density set would hold 160 seated passengers, and with 1/3 2/3 doors it would be similar to a 150.

asylumxl · 17 Jun 2013

Pacesetter = 20m carriages with 1/4 and 3/4 doors.
Pulsar = 23m carriages with 1/4 and 3/4 doors or end doors

The Pacesetter was equivalent to the 15x series and the Pulsar was more equivelant to the 16x/17x.

D365 · 17 Jun 2013

GNERman said:
I believe that was what the Pacesetter was, a Regional DMU. I read that a 2-car high density set would hold 160 seated passengers, and with 1/3 2/3 doors it would be similar to a 150.

Oh no, it's Class 160, maybe! I remember this proposal, interesting as it was, but ultimately, is further variation in the national DMU fleet beneficial, given that we seem to be hoping to make do (and mend?) as the lot is progressively replaced... Polaris, in a similar vein, is not really in line with today and the future.

Polaris train not going ahead?

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