Polaris train not going ahead?

Robbies said:

You also have Alstom who are mostly based in France I believe, but they too also used to have the MCW factory in the West Midlands where the original Pendolino coaches where built. But, as they had no more orders to fill in this country they sold up and believe the site has since been demolished??

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There is a currently open facility in preston, I know because I've jsut applied for a job there. Although I imagine its mainly for maintainance..

edwin_m said:

I don't think saying that helps your case much, if you consider the causes of, and the reaction to, the Wenzhou train collision. We still don't have the full story but it appears to have been a wrong-side failure in an item of signalling equipment - something that has never happened in the Western equivalent system as far as I know, and which signalling systems have been designed to avoid for over 100 years. The authorities tried unsuccessfully to suppress the seriousness of the accident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision

I'm not saying that this condemns the entire Chinese rail industry but it certainly leaves a nasty taste and makes it more difficult for them to be credible in world markets.

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Agreed, but Clapham Junction was a wrong-side signalling failure.

Robbies said:

You also have Alstom who are mostly based in France I believe, but they too also used to have the MCW factory in the West Midlands where the original Pendolino coaches where built. But, as they had no more orders to fill in this country they sold up and believe the site has since been demolished??

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Still in use, it's Washwood Heath, the various yards (and ex Metro Cammel works) now the home of DCR and Colas Rail

Yew said:

There is a currently open facility in preston, I know because I've jsut applied for a job there. Although I imagine its mainly for maintainance..

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The VT Pendolinos have a significant UK content, mainly the traction equipment and TMS from Alstom Preston (ex-EE/GEC).
The final assembly was in Washwood Heath with the tilting bodyshells coming from Savigliano Italy (ex-FIAT).
Eurostar Class 373 had a similar UK electrical content.

LNW-GW Joint said:

The final assembly was in Washwood Heath with the tilting bodyshells coming from Savigliano Italy (ex-FIAT).

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Although of course the new trains and carriages were assembled in Savigliano as well.

rebmcr said:

Agreed, but Clapham Junction was a wrong-side signalling failure.

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Indeed so, due to the failure to adopt correct wiring practice. However a wrong-side failure in an ERTMS-type system, as appears to have happened in China, raises more serious questions about their design. It could be a simple wiring error but is probably more likely to be something like a software error - in the absence of full disclosure we just don't know.

junglejames said:

I believe CSRE was run by some British people?

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Yeah, MD was David Shipley. There's quite a few of his interviews online in various magazines. Indeed I believe he was a member on here...

GNERman said:

Yeah, MD was David Shipley. There's quite a few of his interviews online in various magazines. Indeed I believe he was a member on here...

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I read the interview he did with Rail magazine and I believe he is still a member of this forum although I havent seen him make any posts since early 2012.

Certainly it would be nice if he could give us his opinions on all of this if he is able to.

Invincibles said:

It seems you have some pretty strong stereotypes that are completely at odss with reality.

It might have escaped your attention but the Chinese high speed network runs brilliantly, with a mixture of fast and slow(er) trains running all over the country with no notable problems at all. Nothing about that is shoddily put together, and nothing about it would be better if it was built in England.

There can be little doubt that wages in China are lower than the UK, but so are the costs of living, and so are the expectations. I despair at some of the things people in the UK feel they could not possibly be expected to live without.

If there is a way to get a better quality product, for a lower price, and have the UK railways running more efficiently and better serving the passenger then we should take it. Not just award contracts to our own despite their lack of suitability and competitiveness.

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Nothing about it could have been better if built in the UK? Are you kidding me? High speed lines with few trains often run with no problems. HS1 isnt exactly full of delays. Also, how much of the chinese high speed system is taken from Europe? What exactly has been copied illegally? OK, I expect your answer will be 'Zilch', but most others know that probably isnt the truth.
Now admittedly the chinese high speed network hasnt been shown up too many times yet (except for an unnecessary crash), but give it chance. To claim it couldnt be done better in the UK has no basis whatsoever

We in the UK do not go to china for better quality and cheaper. We only go for cheaper, and invariably, that comes at the expense of quality. Unfortunately our train manufacturing business in the UK has been badly managed, but if we want better quality we go to Germany. NOT china.

Lets look briefly at the motor industry. The chinese now trying to design cars for the Western world. The outcome once testdrove? We in the western world would never accept it. It will need more work done to it.

We in the west expect better than what the chinese themselves can design and manufacture. Hence why we only take what we ourselves have designed, and have kept a keen eye on product control.

Well its time we stopped designing things here then selling out to the chinese.
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GNERman said:

Yeah, MD was David Shipley. There's quite a few of his interviews online in various magazines. Indeed I believe he was a member on here...

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Just like so many others, he was more concerned about his short term profit, than the wellbeing of the country he is supposedly from.
Thankfully his plans died. It was said the Japanese had a special reserved seat at the DFT. Well im sure shipley has a chair waiting for him in china. Au Revoir

junglejames said:

Well its time we stopped designing things here then selling out to the chinese.

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There is a counter-argument that the real money is in high-tech research and design, so we should specialise in that - rather than in old-style manufacturing, where we cannot compete with China's low labour costs.

transmanche said:

There is a counter-argument that the real money is in high-tech research and design, so we should specialise in that - rather than in old-style manufacturing, where we cannot compete with China's low labour costs.

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Its silly to chuck all your eggs in one basket.
Also, as i keep saying, taking things on the cheap, means we are not paying a fair price, as well as hurting our economy and peoples jobs
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asylumxl said:

And the UK is? The EU? Things are far better hidden here.

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You think the UK is as bad as china? OK, thats fine. You keep believing that.

transmanche said:

There is a counter-argument that the real money is in high-tech research and design, so we should specialise in that - rather than in old-style manufacturing, where we cannot compete with China's low labour costs.

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Indeed, we lost the manufacturing battle a long time ago.

Whether we can keep the research and development lead I do not know, if we lose that one as well we might have real problems in the UK.

junglejames said:

Also, as i keep saying, taking things on the cheap, means we are not paying a fair price, as well as hurting our economy and peoples jobs

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I think this is never going to end in agreement.

To my mind unless customers are seriously willing to pay more for British products then no one is going to buy British. Given what I see of both countries I really do not think the UK has the quality advantage any more.

In the mean time I will note that the Chinese high speed network is essentially running fine with trains that are comfortable and effective at what they do.

It only wants a Chinese corporation to buy up a struggling European train builder for everything to change.
Like what happened to Rover and is currently happening to Saab (not without complications).
If other sectors are anything to go by they would keep the design, development and marketing skills in Europe and relocate manufacturing to China.

edwin_m said:

I don't think saying that helps your case much, if you consider the causes of, and the reaction to, the Wenzhou train collision. We still don't have the full story but it appears to have been a wrong-side failure in an item of signalling equipment - something that has never happened in the Western equivalent system as far as I know, and which signalling systems have been designed to avoid for over 100 years. The authorities tried unsuccessfully to suppress the seriousness of the accident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision

I'm not saying that this condemns the entire Chinese rail industry but it certainly leaves a nasty taste and makes it more difficult for them to be credible in world markets.

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Wrong side failures may not have happened with ECTS but one misplaced wire caused a wrong side failure of a UK signalling system and many fatalities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapham_Junction_rail_crash

cjmillsnun said:

Wrong side failures may not have happened with ECTS but one misplaced wire caused a wrong side failure of a UK signalling system and many fatalities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapham_Junction_rail_crash

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Point already made and answered in previous posts.

GO-OP the open acess operator who are planning a Westbury - Birmingham Moor Street service have published a new newsletter.

From reading on another forum and a photo on their website CSRE were a company GO-OP were looking at ordering trains from however that doesnt look like its going ahead.

Parry have also been skirting administration due to a cash shortage because of franchising delay. May be refering to them as well.

anthony263 said:

GO-OP the open acess operator who are planning a Westbury - Birmingham Moor Street service have published a new newsletter.

From reading on another forum and a photo on their website CSRE were a company GO-OP were looking at ordering trains from however that doesnt look like its going ahead.

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I can't believe they're still going

WatcherZero said:

Parry have also been skirting administration due to a cash shortage because of franchising delay. May be refering to them as well.

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That's sad.

They won an export order to Turkey of a railbus for a workers shuttle but seem to have struggled to provide the required bond to underwrite the deal, by the time they found a partner (who exports locomotives to Turkey) to underwrite the deal the Turks had reopened the tendering process.