Nym
Established Member
Perhaps we could add a tourist coach to the 09TS for them to get to OXC and back?
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People's least favourite stations
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MK Tom
Established Member
A few for me:
4. London Victoria.
Beautiful and all but the way the platforms stagger back is really annoying, crowds criss-crossing all the time, too many shops in funny places, awkwardly positioned tube entrance... and badly placed ticket barriers.
3. Northampton
Changing soon but just a completely inadequate building, not enough through platforms for the services that stop there and the area between it and town is a wasteland, especially the old yard.
2. Manchester Victoria
Requires no explanation.
1. Oxford
Again, another attack of not enough platforms syndrome but on a much larger scale. The only station of a major regional hub, double university city and ultimate tourist destination has two through platforms, one bay that's hidden and nowhere near the entrance, an eternally overcrowded footbridge that has signs telling people to be careful and a tiny station building that's a crammed mess of signs, chairs and tables, benches and shops. The ticket windows are usually queued back to the front door, the automatic machines are in the middle of the room and create a constant crowd problem, barriers are awkard especially with the number of trains that come in without ticket checks from unstaffed stations... it's the ultimate let-down entrance to one of Britain's finest cities.
4. London Victoria.
Beautiful and all but the way the platforms stagger back is really annoying, crowds criss-crossing all the time, too many shops in funny places, awkwardly positioned tube entrance... and badly placed ticket barriers.
3. Northampton
Changing soon but just a completely inadequate building, not enough through platforms for the services that stop there and the area between it and town is a wasteland, especially the old yard.
2. Manchester Victoria
Requires no explanation.
1. Oxford
Again, another attack of not enough platforms syndrome but on a much larger scale. The only station of a major regional hub, double university city and ultimate tourist destination has two through platforms, one bay that's hidden and nowhere near the entrance, an eternally overcrowded footbridge that has signs telling people to be careful and a tiny station building that's a crammed mess of signs, chairs and tables, benches and shops. The ticket windows are usually queued back to the front door, the automatic machines are in the middle of the room and create a constant crowd problem, barriers are awkard especially with the number of trains that come in without ticket checks from unstaffed stations... it's the ultimate let-down entrance to one of Britain's finest cities.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
I think it would have been very difficult to reorganise St Pancras to shorten these walking routes.
About the only thing I can think of for the EMT platforms would be a different arrangement of the escalators leading to the upper level. This might allow a quicker route to/from the Tube ticket hall under Kings Cross, or a route through the main shed at the upper level, avoiding the Eurostar scrum down below, with escalators down somewhere near the Betjeman statue and on into the Tube ticket hall under the forecourt.
For FCC the barriers could possibly have been put at the intermediate underground level, and the subway from the Tube ticket hall under Kings Cross extended to this area. This might also have allowed for one set of lifts down to this level from both ground floor and EMT above.
I think anything beyond that would be a question of re-routeing some of the sub-surface railways or demolishing much more of the historic part of the station.
In the case of the former, I know it probably coms across as stupid, but that incident has put me ofg a return visit to that particular line
In the case of the latter, I did have a mobile phone, but it didn't make a difference because I didn't have a phone number for Northerns customer services, or a taxi firm in Northwich, and my family don't drive so it wouldn't have made any difference. ...
And isn't anyone's opinion going to be based on experiences and incidents at these stations?
Nym
Established Member
I think you're getting your ticket halls mixed up here...
If you where extending the FCC Platforms to an LUL ticket hall entrance, it would be to the Network Rail extention of the Northern Ticket Hall (LUL) and if you're near the statue then access would likely be into the Western Ticket Hall, the Tube Ticket Hall is not directly accessable from St Pancras in any direction nowerdays, the old entrances are covered by the Eurostar developments.
There aren't many stations that I will go out of my way to avoid - most have some sort of interest.
The only one that springs to mind is Salford Crescent. Cramped, exposed and not much to do if you end up stuck there for a while.
The only one that springs to mind is Salford Crescent. Cramped, exposed and not much to do if you end up stuck there for a while.
nathanclass323
Member
I'd say it does! I love Manchester Victoria. What's bad about it in your opinion?
asylumxl
Established Member
I would vote for St Pancras. All the things I think are wrong with it would be an essay though so I'll just refrain from explaining in detail. Shopping centre with ill thought out platforms attatched under leaky extensions.
TOCDriver
Member
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I agree with you. Lighting not too good but it does have bags of atmosphere and character
EM2
Established Member
Why does the Underground entrance make a difference? It's still the same distance from the mainline platforms to the LU ones, seeing as they're not being moved.
As the ticket office has to serve two TOCs (EMT and SE) surely it makes sense to be between both of them?
Four ticket machines at the ticket office, three at platforms 1-4, three in the subway to the underground, four in FCC (one in the ticket office, three by the info point) and two on the SE concourse. That's sixteen.
Escalators were changed to reduce accidents. People would stop dead at the top to read the departure board, and people trying to get off behind would run into them. Accidents have dropped by nearly 20% since the change.
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There are two escalators, two lifts (one at each end) and a staircase. Where else would you put more escalators?
The lift from FCC would come out somewhere on the trackbed of platform 1. Hardly practical.
There's not really a need for any shops to be at stations. STP is hardly unique in that regard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Walk along the upper level, past the Grand, there's a lift at the end (by Carluccio's) and a staircase by the statue. Or you can go through the arch and down the staircase outside.
There's not really anywhere else to put escalators up to EMT.
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asylumxl
Established Member
But makes changing from FCC or SET to EMT much harder. It's not really a short distance between the two escalators, particularly annoying with all the dawdling French arrivals floating around aimlessly.
I'd hate it if I had any luggage!
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
My previous suggestion of Leeds was down to the fact that it could be so much better if a bit more thought/funding had been applied to the rebuild- The main concourse and entrance still looks like something from 1987!
It's a while since I've been there, but Bristol Parkway never massively impressed me with it's cramped, wind-tunnelesque platforms. Ideally Saltaire should be rebuilt to be a bit more substantial (architecturally at least) so that it's a bit more befitting of the fact that it serves a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
It's a while since I've been there, but Bristol Parkway never massively impressed me with it's cramped, wind-tunnelesque platforms. Ideally Saltaire should be rebuilt to be a bit more substantial (architecturally at least) so that it's a bit more befitting of the fact that it serves a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
EM2
Established Member
That's why there's a lift.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I was referring to the Tube in the sense of the Underground - I wasn't aware that one of the ticket halls was specifically known as the "Tube Ticket Hall". To me this doesn't seem a very sensible name, as for example a member of the public making an emergency call could use the term as I did to refer to any of the ticket halls, but the responders might assume they meant the one under the KX forecourt.
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The lift is very slow, especially if you just miss it!
The stairs face the wrong way, so you have to backtrack and walk along a large section of the busy lower level. Up and down escalators with their lower ends towards the Underground entrance would have been far better. If this got in the way of the lift then that could move further up towards the EMT end.
I hadn't really thought about going through the arch, in fact I was under the impression there was no way out from that end of the upper level except via the lift or stairs mentioned or through the hotel. Does the signage show this as a route to Euston Road? This is also probably rather a long way round for the Tube.
If the escalator usage had to be changed round for safety reasons, this suggests their layout is a poor design feature.
I'm not saying St Pancras is one of my "least favourite stations", simply that it could have been a lot better if these features had been arranged differently!
91101
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Those who are critical of St Pancras, what do you think of Gare du Nord?
Personally, I think St Pancras flows quite well, there is a clear segregation between International and Domestic pax, with Eurostar being towards the south and centre of the station, meanwhile all domestic operators have their respective bases in the north end of the station and personally, I have never had a problem getting from one to the other.
My use of StP is principally interchanging from Kings Cross so it again flows very well to come out of the Cafe Nero/FCC Suburban end of the KGX "Eyelash" and walk across to either EMT, SET or FCC.
I can think of numerous times when I have used the "posh end" of StP for dinner with friends, or even just pretending to be posh by hanging out in the Champagne bar before a Eurostar trip!
Like it or loathe it, retail makes the railway money, and if it is doing so, that's some pressure off the farebox, so it's a good thing for us all!
Now back to my original point Gare du Nord in my opinion does not flow well at all, there is no clear demarcation for what platform is what. Going down to any of the RER lines terribly confusing with ticket gates that make no sense, with no staff to help! Arriving on an RER you can get stuck in the infinate shopping mall that exists on the paid side of the barriers, its not an easy station to negotiate, certainly much more confusing than STP!!
Personally, I think St Pancras flows quite well, there is a clear segregation between International and Domestic pax, with Eurostar being towards the south and centre of the station, meanwhile all domestic operators have their respective bases in the north end of the station and personally, I have never had a problem getting from one to the other.
My use of StP is principally interchanging from Kings Cross so it again flows very well to come out of the Cafe Nero/FCC Suburban end of the KGX "Eyelash" and walk across to either EMT, SET or FCC.
I can think of numerous times when I have used the "posh end" of StP for dinner with friends, or even just pretending to be posh by hanging out in the Champagne bar before a Eurostar trip!
Like it or loathe it, retail makes the railway money, and if it is doing so, that's some pressure off the farebox, so it's a good thing for us all!
Now back to my original point Gare du Nord in my opinion does not flow well at all, there is no clear demarcation for what platform is what. Going down to any of the RER lines terribly confusing with ticket gates that make no sense, with no staff to help! Arriving on an RER you can get stuck in the infinate shopping mall that exists on the paid side of the barriers, its not an easy station to negotiate, certainly much more confusing than STP!!
asylumxl
Established Member
Do you work at St Pancras? I seem to recall you may from memory.
I use St Pancras regularly for commuting and it's not just me who is of the opinion that the layout is poor.
Domestic passenger areas were treated as an afterthought. I believe originally the EMT platforms were going to be further back but were moved further north, out the train shed, to increase retail space and allow more light in to the undercroft.
Foster and Partners are supposed to be good at producing structures with steel and glass that keep the elements out, not that you'd know it from the extension.
From an operational point of view, the 4 platforms allocated to MML services will prove to be a constraint on capacity in the future. I believe there is only one spare path out of those platforms. Is it any surprise the MML has been neglected as a main line for so long?
Blindtraveler
Established Member
GInverness - feels a bit sparse for the capital of the highlands and given the lengthy connection times could do with a better catering offer.
Kings cross, never liked it and the refurb has not improved it in my mind.
Berwick on tweed, so many borders passengers changing to buses there yet the forcourt lacks seating or shelters.
motherwell, just a bit grim.
Haymarket, cosmetically tarting it up woant help overcrouding or improve the lack of wating room provision at platform level and a bit more space for a 2nd bay along with more terminating trains there would be a big help in freeing up paths to Waverley.↲
Kings cross, never liked it and the refurb has not improved it in my mind.
Berwick on tweed, so many borders passengers changing to buses there yet the forcourt lacks seating or shelters.
motherwell, just a bit grim.
Haymarket, cosmetically tarting it up woant help overcrouding or improve the lack of wating room provision at platform level and a bit more space for a 2nd bay along with more terminating trains there would be a big help in freeing up paths to Waverley.↲
MK Tom
Established Member
It's the image of decay. The station is like a giant shadow of its former self, rusty, dark, gloomy, especially with the arena on top of it that makes the through platforms worse than New Street for gloominess in my opinion. It's surrounded by obvious signs of once being bigger, empty spaces where tracks once ran. The Metrolink platforms are kind of awkward to get to as well.
Obviously all that said, much like Northampton in my post, it is set to change in the near future.
Nym
Established Member
It is very unlikely that a MoP would be calling in an emergency on a mobile phone, and even more so that responders would listen to their locations without contacting the SCR to find out where this actually is...
Noteably, there are technically four ticket halls.
route:oxford
Established Member
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There's a whole new station being built isn't there?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh goodness...
Did you not know you can use directory enquiries on a mobile telephone?
My first phone that had WAP connection for internet surfing was in around 2001, so even with a truly ancient phone in 2010 there should have been some form of internet surf capability to look up a phone number.
nathanclass323
Member
PAYG - low on credit and no money to top it up?
Andrewlong
Member
Saltaire is ok. It's a modern day commuter/tourist station with minimal facilities. Just because its part of a UNESCO site doesn't mean it needs rebuilding. Does it have toilets?
Bradford Forster Square is a poor station given it has services direct to London and I was never a fan of Exchange either.
EM2
Established Member
I do work at STP, you are correct.
Domestic platforms are at the end because a) operationally (and economically) it makes most sense to put them there and b) there's not enough room in the Barlow Shed.
For point a) if the platforms are further south, you're laying extra track that costs money to be laid and maintained, so why would you?
As for capacity, there must surely be more than one path at the south end of the MML, or how could they operate the EMT and FCC northbound timetables from the platforms during engineering work? That's the five EMT services plus an extra four FCC per hour.
IanD
Established Member
Forster Square is a shadow of it's former self but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.
Bradford Exchange was a magnificent station until replaced by the Interchange. Nothing wrong with the new station though.
The only stations I've been disappointed by are Blackhorse Road and Walthamstow Queens Road. I don't dislike them, it's just that before I saw either I was expecting something better. I've no idea why but I think I was expecting St Pancras in miniature or some quaint little LMS country station!
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
It doesn't have toilets- only facilities are shelters. It's typical of re-opened stations of the 1980s in West Yorkshire: wooden platforms and not much else. I'm not suggesting a palace, just something a little more permanent-looking I guess!
As for Forster Square, I remember seeing the derelict old station alongside the current one and being disappointed that it was no longer used. I guess both Bradford stations are adequate (if not brilliant) for the traffic of 10-15 years ago, but there's little room for growth in either case. (One might argue that Interchange has become the city's 'main' station once more thanks to Grand Central).
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asylumxl
Established Member
I don't quite buy the argument that it's the best place for them.
Operationally, how does having them further north help matters? That's an honest question by the way.
As for the economics, since the lines originally were in the shed I can't see how it would prove to be prohibitively expensive to have them further south. Let's not forget which line it was originally built for. Surely the cost of the new extension was far more?
As for why you'd do it, longer platforms would allow two 7 car Meridians to occupy the same platform which would give greater operational flexibility. I can think of several times off the top of my head where an EMT service has been routed in to the wrong platform, thus preventing another booked service arriving since no platforms could fit the incoming train anymore. Chaos obviously ensued.
As for pathing, I'm talking out the actual station. During engineering works the FCC services usually consist of units stacked on top of each other in 1. The EMT services tend to be shorter and slower than usual, as usually only one set of lines is in use up until Radlett or Harpenden Junction. This makes pathing much easier.
Looking at Dock Junction South during the week off-peak (for today, Monday) it seems quite busy to me, so I am inclined to believe there are very few spare paths on a weekday.
That's my retort. Sorry for the essay
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nathanclass323
Member
Exactly what I was thinking! Though I don't go often and the last time I went was early last year (I like to go more interesting ways from Derby to London when I have time! Eg; DBY-BHM BMO-MYB just for loco haulage when planned right) I seem to remember the EMT platforms not even slightly in the original shed. Though in the long term there will be a greater income, it surely cost f***loads (excuse my French) more to build the shed extension and build all of that retail space underground than just renewing the platforms that there were and upgraded for Eurostars. The ease of usage must come before profit of a station in my opinion.
That said, I really like St. Pancras.
EM2
Established Member
Because it reduces the need for maintenance of 200m of track, and all the associated signalling etc. that it requires.
You've conveniently omitted the point that there is not room, hence why the four EMT and three SET platforms are outside the bounds of the Barlow Shed.
An EMT service leaving from the south end of the Shed would travel about 300m before it's even out of the station, what's the point? It's burning fuel unnecessarily.
Once you take that into account, and the fact that you can't do anything to the fabric of the station without English Heritage approval, where do you go?
Add to the fact that there are now restrictions about diesels in the Barlow Shed (again thanks to English Heritage).
But how often has that been needed? If a service is sent into the wrong platform, that's the signaller's problem, not the architect of the station.
People moan enough as it is about walking the length of an HST, I can't see them having to walk along past fourteen cars of 221 going down well.
Not in my experience. Certainly on Saturday, FCC tended to use 8-cars so they can't stack and EMT services ran to their normal timetable.As for pathing, I'm talking out the actual station. During engineering works the FCC services usually consist of units stacked on top of each other in 1. The EMT services tend to be shorter and slower than usual, as usually only one set of lines is in use up until Radlett or Harpenden Junction. This makes pathing much easier.
Looking at Dock Junction South during the week off-peak (for today, Monday) it seems quite busy to me, so I am inclined to believe there are very few spare paths on a weekday.
That's my retort. Sorry for the essay
We had that every night and every weekend for over two years and there were very few problems caused by platform layout or pathing.
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