"Continental Railways Are Better Than Ours"

LNW-GW Joint · 14 Jul 2013

I spent an unhappy couple of hours at Stockholm Central on Saturday - came in from Copenhagen on an X2000 and left on an intercity-train (age indeterminate) for Oslo.
In the process of changing trains, I noticed weeds 6 feet high on/between the main tracks through the station - worse than NR.
On departure on the Oslo train, the emergency stop was activated before the train left the platforms, and it took SJ a whole hour to release the brakes.
This blocked the entire station throat southbound (local trains began moving after a bit, but all main line trains were stopped).
During all this time there were only a couple of short announcements in Swedish only.
So SJ is not quite the operator I thought it was. No apology. No refreshments. No refund.
We were still an hour late into Oslo.

The only impressive thing was that the ASEA black-liveried loco 1391 would not have looked out of place at Woodhead circa 1960.
Once on the move it kept up 160kph for hours on end, including some nifty wrong-line running to let an X2000 overtake (both trains running westbound at speed on the double track).

RailUK Forums

big_dirt · 15 Jul 2013

It's nigh on impossible to compare the whole of the continent's railway to ours. We are an isolated system whereas each country on 'the continent' has its own strengths and weaknesses.

What happens in Stockholm has no impact on rail operations in Barcelona.

To state that continental railways are better than ours, we'd need to be demonstrably worse than all other European countries, including some less wealthy ones.

lemonic · 15 Jul 2013

As big_dirt says, it is impossible to generalise about all of the railways on the continent.

But there are certain countries where certain aspects of their railways are better than the UK in my opinion. For example, I am a big fan of the German railways. I think that the passenger environment on the ICE trains is superb, I like the layout of the major stations with no ticket barriers and lots of shops/places to eat and I like how it is common for connections to be held. But in my experience trains in the UK are more punctual than trains in Germany, so it is not all better there.

I have experienced major delays in the UK and on the continent. They happen everywhere.

LNW-GW Joint · 15 Jul 2013

big_dirt said:
It's nigh on impossible to compare the whole of the continent's railway to ours. We are an isolated system whereas each country on 'the continent' has its own strengths and weaknesses.
What happens in Stockholm has no impact on rail operations in Barcelona.
To state that continental railways are better than ours, we'd need to be demonstrably worse than all other European countries, including some less wealthy ones.

Yes indeed, all I'm saying is that all is not automatically better on the other side of the ditch.

starrymarkb · 15 Jul 2013

aleksander said:
As big_dirt says, it is impossible to generalise about all of the railways on the continent.

But there are certain countries where certain aspects of their railways are better than the UK in my opinion. For example, I am a big fan of the German railways. I think that the passenger environment on the ICE trains is superb, I like the layout of the major stations with no ticket barriers and lots of shops/places to eat and I like how it is common for connections to be held. But in my experience trains in the UK are more punctual than trains in Germany, so it is not all better there.

I have experienced major delays in the UK and on the continent. They happen everywhere.

Indeed, I love the range of eateries in major stations in Germany. AsiaGormet and Nordsee knock SSP for six... And the ICE is something I'd welcome in the UK

I have been victim of Engineering works in Berlin. The Airport Express had been suspended for a week, not that there was any signage in English or German on the Hbf - Given it's an airport service I'd have at least put a poster up by it's platform as it would see a large number of visitors who would just turn up for the next service to the airport. This is something the UK does at least do (and Leipzig's Public Transport Office did as well)

German Project management seems to be plummeting, the CityTunnel in Leipzig is 4 years late and there were still large chunks missing from the connecting tracks (I know you can do a lot in 6 months but I was expecting testing to be taking place by now.) Then there is the whole Berlin Airport debacle...

LNW-GW Joint · 15 Jul 2013

aleksander said:
For example, I am a big fan of the German railways. I think that the passenger environment on the ICE trains is superb, I like the layout of the major stations with no ticket barriers and lots of shops/places to eat and I like how it is common for connections to be held. But in my experience trains in the UK are more punctual than trains in Germany, so it is not all better there.

I passed through Hamburg on the way to Scandinavia.
The restaurant/terrace of my hotel in Hamburg Altona (the InterCity) was essentially part of platform 13 and I was able to watch a succession of ICE/IC/Regional trains coming and going.
The big surprise was when a gang of orange-suited guys emerged from an office and proceeded to load up a Motorail train to Vienna in very quick order.
Several platform ends had a double-deck electrical link-span and the cars just drove on from an underground car park.
Next morning they were unloading the incoming train, putting up simple barriers on the concourse, and the cars just drove off through the station shopping centre into the Hamburg traffic.
Later at Hamburg Hbf I noticed another three incoming Motorail trains, all fully loaded - maybe 50 cars on each.
Motorail is obviously alive and well in Germany, and very well managed.

I had a 1st class ticket for the ICE-TD service to Copenhagen, but it did not come with a reservation, so unfortunately I had to stand in 1st class all the way to the ferry.
Luckily DSB added another unit at Nykobing.
Very impressive how they loaded the train on to the Puttgarden-Rodby ferry.
You would have thought the 5-car design was on purpose!

p123 · 15 Jul 2013

starrymarkb said:
And the ICE is something I'd welcome in the UK

Hmm, it's fast. Although I have been delayed more often on the German ICE than I have been on our WCML. When I went travelling with my German friends (who, for background info, stay in the south near Munich) a couple of years ago, their sentiment to delays were "ah, ze ICE is always late!".

F Great Eastern · 16 Jul 2013

The irony is the statement that is in the title of this thread I often here whilst I am on my travels and it always makes me have a little smile as it's normally commuters who come out with this and as we all know, you can never please them at all.

In my experience a lot of people saying this are those who say it because they read it in the paper, the Daily Fail or suchlike. They actually have no direct experience of the railways that they claim are better, and base it purely on tabloid conjecture rather than actual experience.

starrymarkb · 16 Jul 2013

p123 said:
Hmm, it's fast. Although I have been delayed more often on the German ICE than I have been on our WCML. When I went travelling with my German friends (who, for background info, stay in the south near Munich) a couple of years ago, their sentiment to delays were "ah, ze ICE is always late!".

Yep, they do have a tenancy to 'go tech' - I've not had delays but 2 out of 3 ICE-T trips our reserved coach has been locked out with defects

gordonthemoron · 16 Jul 2013

DB do have some contingency which UK trains companies do not, for instance replacing failed ICEs with IC stock or rerouting during disruptions which avoids rail replacement bus services. They do suffer from delays on long distance services because the distances involved are rather like Cross Country.

SBB seem to have acquired the reputation of being always ontime due to their trains not going very fast and long stops at stations.

SNCF TGVs are great but their other trains are not.

PKP long distance services are often late which is in part due to extensive engineering work.

etc.

radamfi · 16 Jul 2013

Swiss trains do have to wait for connections, which is the reason for the waits at main stations. Although Dutch trains have a similar style of interconnecting network with shorter waits, which inevitably leads to worse punctuality than the Swiss.

Local/regional trains in most of France are not that great but the suburban network around Paris isn't so bad.

Drsatan · 16 Jul 2013

gordonthemoron said:
PKP long distance services are often late which is in part due to extensive engineering work.

etc.

Yes, I've experienced that in Poland. I ended up on an EC service from Warsaw to Prague which stopped in the middle of nowhere for two hours, with only a couple of announcements in Polish and Czech (neither of which I understood)

Similarly, on a local service from Katowice to Oswiecim, the train stopped at a station for an hour without any announcements. Since this was in the summer, with temperatures of over 30 degrees Celsius, and the train wasn't air conditioned, it wasn't a pleasurable experience.

WestCoast · 16 Jul 2013

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, which may also depend on the specific region within a country. No difference to the UK there.

I'd say having travelled extensively, DB and the German rail system is still my favourite. It just feels right. The rolling stock by and large is very nice and usually adequate capacity-wise, the coverage is very good, the fares are in general good (especially good for regional trains and unlimited BahnCards) and while punctuality is not what it once was, a lot of it seems down the sheer distances the trains cover. Germany is a lot more spread out and decentralised than the UK, the routes quite literally go all over, rather than converging on a city like London. A lot of the the DB Regional Expresses seem to cover greater distances than IC services in the UK! VT's Manchester - London services are short hops compared to what the average ICE route covers and can also cross country boundaries (the IC/EC routes being often even longer - think Hamburg to Budapest or Basel to Amsterdam!).

I do think that SBB (Swiss) and NS (Netherlands) are especially good networks as well, the Swiss being very good at punctuality and connectivity and the Dutch system also highly integrated into all other modes of transport. No surprise that those two countries have very high ridership levels among their residents. Spain and France are in my view the kings of high speed rail in Europe, which suits their lower population density countries. Don't have too much experience with Scandinavia, except that I found the fares in Denmark to be as high as Switzerland without the Swiss quality.

87015 · 16 Jul 2013

What's sadder is that nearly all of them are going downhill, Germany especially, in the rush to kill the big state owned companies in favour of balkalised private operations.

I really do fear for the railways of much of Eastern Europe as they are forced to allow foreign freight co's to cherry pick the only traffic which has any chance of ever turning a profit.

Ivo · 16 Jul 2013

A quote from a gentleman sitting near me on a train in the Bonn area about ten years ago:

"Zherman trains are alvays overcrowded."

317666 · 16 Jul 2013

From my experience, German trains are late a lot of the time, but the walk-on fares tend to be cheaper, overcrowding isn't as bad, and the trains are generally more comfortable (longer-distance or loco-hauled trains that is, some of the newer EMUs have hideous seats). I agree with 87015's comment about privatisation dragging them down though. In Berlin, lines RE2 and RE4 are now privately-run with new EMUs which are shorter, and therefore more overcrowded, than the old loco-hauled trains. I say old, the coaches used on them were only ten years old and had air-conditioning, so it makes me wonder just what the point was?

Somebody posted earlier about Berlin's 'Airport Express' - this isn't a designated express service as such, but a couple of regional services which just happen to serve Schönefeld airport. The old double-decker coaches which used to run on them often had 'Airport Express' branding but the new EMUs don't. When (if!) the new airport opens, there will be a designated airport express service running non-stop from Berlin Hauptbahnhof.

WestCoast · 16 Jul 2013

317666 said:
From my experience, German trains are late a lot of the time, but the walk-on fares tend to be cheaper, overcrowding isn't as bad, and the trains are generally more comfortable (longer-distance or loco-hauled trains that is, some of the newer EMUs have hideous seats). I agree with 87015's comment about privatisation dragging them down though. In Berlin, lines RE2 and RE4 are now privately-run with new EMUs which are shorter, and therefore more overcrowded, than the old loco-hauled trains. I say old, the coaches used on them were only ten years old and had air-conditioning, so it makes me wonder just what the point was?

Somebody posted earlier about Berlin's 'Airport Express' - this isn't a designated express service as such, but a couple of regional services which just happen to serve Schönefeld airport. The old double-decker coaches which used to run on them often had 'Airport Express' branding but the new EMUs don't. When (if!) the new airport opens, there will be a designated airport express service running non-stop from Berlin Hauptbahnhof.

It makes me smile when people mention examples from Berlin and Brandenburg. Regional services in Germany are under the control of the Länder, it's a gross-tendering system like London Buses as we've discussed before. With the airport and S-Bahn fiascoes, the general opinion of Brandenburg's transport policy (excluding BVG's services) isn't too high at the moment! In fact, if they'd got Fraport (Frankfurt Airport's owners/operators) to build the new airport, the general consensus is that it would be operational long ago, although that's slightly detracting from the railways issue.

Some of the private operators in e.g. Nordrhein-Westfalen are top notch IMO, but it's down to the state to specify double-decker stock and some do seem a little too keen to get-rid of the crowd-busting Bombardier Dostos. With the Stadler KISS now available, a great double-decker EMU product, here's hoping that new contracts are directed to buy those!

My causal observations (which may or may not be backed up by data) is that the service is less 'polished' in areas previously under control of DR prior to reunification, which is no surprise considering the (ever) stark East West divide in Germany. It's up to the state in question to organise services, and if that means taking away or re-awarding contracts from DB Regio, that should happen.

As an aside, I don't think DB's punctuality is helped by an apparent reluctance to add duration to the running times, but again it does seem a lot better in some areas than others.

Referring to the original question, I actually think the UK medium/long-distance rail is mostly on a par with the continent or even better in some cases, it's the urban transport in towns and cities outside London where I feel the UK is often lagging behind and getting worse. Most continental cities have superior and highly integrated bus/tram/trolleybus/metro networks in even the most modest of cities, which link seamlessly to the longer-distance trains. Most provincial cities in the UK could only dream of that level of coverage.

bnm · 16 Jul 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
During all this time there were only a couple of short announcements in Swedish only.

Were you expecting English as well? Swedish announcements on a Swedish train, who'd've thought?

Not once when I've been on a delayed train in England have I heard announcements in anything other than English. Might expect multiple language announcements on an international service but not on a regular inter-city service.

A lot of British abroad do seem to expect English to be spoken and are surprised when it isn't.

317666 · 17 Jul 2013

WestCoast said:
Some of the private operators in e.g. Nordrhein-Westfalen are top notch IMO, but it's down to the state to specify double-decker stock and some do seem a little too keen to get-rid of the crowd-busting Bombardier Dostos. With the Stadler KISS now available, a great double-decker EMU product, here's hoping that new contracts are directed to buy those!

The new EMUs I was on about are in fact Stadler KISS units, having sampled a few I must agree they are quite nice units (apart from the air-conditioning which was, well, non-existent). They probably give the image of the train being shorter thanks to not having a loco on the end! Agreed that, on routes where double-decker trains currently operate, it would be a good idea for it to be in the tender that double-decker trains must be used by the new operator.

gordonthemoron · 17 Jul 2013

METRONOM trains serving Bremen, Hamburg, Hannover are very nice huge loco hauled double deckers, much better than DB equivalent double deckers used on Munich-Salzburg

starrymarkb · 17 Jul 2013

317666 said:
The new EMUs I was on about are in fact Stadler KISS units, having sampled a few I must agree they are quite nice units (apart from the air-conditioning which was, well, non-existent). They probably give the image of the train being shorter thanks to not having a loco on the end! Agreed that, on routes where double-decker trains currently operate, it would be a good idea for it to be in the tender that double-decker trains must be used by the new operator.

My experience of one of the older 1970s Dosto rakes on a hot (35C) day was not pleasant. Sauna is a word that comes to mind!

The new DB Talent 2s and ODEG KISS units seem to have thinned the oldest and worst deckers out, there were a few still around Leipzig (not for long though as Leipzig's new Talents are being delivered) but otherwise it was all modern Bombardier Deckers around Berlin

WestCoast · 17 Jul 2013

gordonthemoron said:
METRONOM trains serving Bremen, Hamburg, Hannover are very nice huge loco hauled double deckers, much better than DB equivalent double deckers used on Munich-Salzburg

Yeah, private operators with double deckers are becoming more common, particularly in the busy Northern areas. Westfalenbahn which is taking over the Braunschweig to Rheine RE service in Niedersachsen and NRW is replacing DB Bombardier Dostos with Stadler KISS units. Anything else round that way would be a farce anyway.

sheff1 · 17 Jul 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
So SJ is not quite the operator I thought it was.

I'm not sure what you thought it was. SJ has not, in the main, been well regarded in recent years.

As others have said, punctuality in Germany has declined drastically in the last decade or so.

Switzerland still seems the most impressive to me. Last weekend I passed the toppling crane accident close to Zurich Airport little more than an hour or so after it happened. The multi lingual info available at the airport was top notch and I made the diverted train to Bern (12 very heavilly loaded double decker carriages!) at HB without difficulty. Returning two days later everything was seemingly running through the affected area smoothly again.

LNW-GW Joint · 18 Jul 2013

bnm said:
Were you expecting English as well? Swedish announcements on a Swedish train, who'd've thought?
Not once when I've been on a delayed train in England have I heard announcements in anything other than English. Might expect multiple language announcements on an international service but not on a regular inter-city service.
A lot of British abroad do seem to expect English to be spoken and are surprised when it isn't.

Well every other train I used in Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Norway had announcements in English as well as the local language, even S-bahn and local trains.
This was also an international service (Stockholm-Oslo).
I agree with you about expectation though, and our inability/refusal to accommodate other languages on trains.
But in Scandinavia generally, English is very widely spoken by the locals, not just foreigners.
My real grumble was that the only time I really needed information, it wasn't in English :lol:

Gordon · 18 Jul 2013

British people seem to have a uniquly rose tinted (ah - but is it just us or does it as I suspect from my world travels, actaully happen the world over) view of railways in other countries. The French rail system is more often than not cited as 'better' but of course that is rubbish as quite a few aspects of French railways are naff - and that is me a total SNCF-o-phile since 1960 saying that.

In fact as has already been said in this thread, all railway systems have their good and bad points.

For example (very much non-exhaustive!):
French TGVs are very fast, but not as comfortable as German ICEs, Swiss trains are usually (but not always) punctual but lose money hand over fist etc etc etc.
Regarding the latter point, incidentally, many Swiss railway professionals envy the UK's 'value for money' railway system.

robvulpes · 18 Jul 2013

Gordon said:
British people seem to have a uniquly rose tinted (ah - but is it just us or does it as I suspect from my world travels, actaully happen the world over) view of railways in other countries. The French rail system is more often than not cited as 'better' but of course that is rubbish as quite a few aspects of French railways are naff - and that is me a total SNCF-o-phile since 1960 saying that.

.... as identified in an article in today's Guardian newspaper LINK

Rob

sarahj · 18 Jul 2013

The language thing is a difficult one. When over the water they are done in the native language and english when done like so. However, over here, what would be the second language? I've done ones coming into Gatwick in English, French and German, but beyond that which two, would you do, and for each station, drive all my passengers mad.

ainsworth74 · 18 Jul 2013

bnm said:
Were you expecting English as well? Swedish announcements on a Swedish train, who'd've thought?

Not once when I've been on a delayed train in England have I heard announcements in anything other than English. Might expect multiple language announcements on an international service but not on a regular inter-city service.

A lot of British abroad do seem to expect English to be spoken and are surprised when it isn't.

Whilst I don't disagree with your point, indeed broadly I agree with it, I do wonder what language we'd pick to have on our trains? On the continent and elsewhere the two logical languages are normally the local language and English by virtue of it remaining a global language. Especially it seems on the continent.

But what about over here? Do we pick French? German? Spanish? All three? Or something else (Mandarin?)? Which is the most logical to have on our trains?

I agree that when it comes to catering for overseas visitors whose first language isn't English we do a terrible job (for one I'd like to see more multi-lingual signs both on-board trains and on stations) of catering for them. But just which language do we cater for?

starrymarkb · 18 Jul 2013

I'd say on signage probably German and French at minimum (even if just small print) with Pictograms/Icons too where appropriate...

Maybe like
Platform
Voie / Gleis

WestCoast · 18 Jul 2013

I do consider myself to be a bit of a linguist, but the other languages issue is tricky in the UK. You could argue for many different languages, in Europe it's German that has the most native speakers. However, at the same time a lot of German speakers have a functional command of English. Less so with other languages like French.

You could argue that signage in "immigrant" languages would be more helpful, in areas where, say, Polish and Urdu are widely spoken. I could see some objection to that though. When I was in New York, a lot of important disruption information on the Subway was supplied in Mandarin and Spanish.

French is still regarded as an international language, particularly in areas like the postal service (e.g. "par avion" is in larger type than "air mail" on international mail). DB uses French sometimes in addition to English and of course German. It's also the language which has family links to Spanish and Italian. It also has a lot of speakers from around the world and is the language which most native English speakers in the UK claim to be able to converse in on a basic level. If more second language announcements/signage were to be introduced, and at the risk of being a traditionalist, it should IMHO be French.

"Continental Railways Are Better Than Ours"

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Established Member